Source
r/starcitizen•
Merminotaur

Dark caves

DISCUSSION

Two things before my fit:

  1. Correct me if I'm wrong because I might've misunderstood, and
  2. Let me know if I'm in the minority.

Alright, now for some yelling.

Edit: To be clear, because I may have not been, I'm talking about lighting without a logical source.

CIG: Please PLEASE don't make the cave rock "glow" for no reason. Caves, dungeons, etc. that aren't completely dark when they should be - e.g. think of vanilla Skyrim dungeons - are the most immersion breaking settings that I've encountered in gaming.

If you want the player to have an idea of what a room is like, put some lights in it, or poke a hole in the ceiling, or give the player some flares, or anything except light with no source. And I don't think you need to worry about the players getting lost in caves because there wasn't random ambient lighting floating in the air. There should be some danger of getting lost in caves if players aren't careful. Please don't feel like you need to hold the player's hand.

(If this fake lighting is a temporary measure until something better is made, then ignore me.)

Posted Sep 12, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC · edited

5057
Fearweaveraegis•

NIGHT VISION MINING HAT

that is all.

29
Nrgte•

Easy. Solved. Let's go home boys, job's done.

10
Deathturkeynew user/low karma•

It’s been a few years since I’ve used night vision equipment, but doesn’t it draw on ambient light, if there’s no light like there would be in caves they won’t work.

2
Nrgte•

That's true, but you could easily integrate a minimal headlight that just emits enough light that the night vision works.

0
errelsoftnew user/low karma•

Most current nightvision equipment have an IR mode (An IR light will emit some infrared light for your goggles to work with). You can use this if there isn't enough ambient light to see sufficiently.

Pro: You can see in absolute darkness (well not really, you're emitting IR light).

Con: Anyone with night vision can very easily spot you.

2
Rainwalker007•

There will be posts saying MAKE IT DARKER.. only to see posts saying WTF CIG WE CANT SEE ANYTHING MAKE IT BRIGHTER..

and all that gona be before anyone even walk into a cave..

29
Tiranasta•

only to see posts saying WTF CIG WE CANT SEE ANYTHING MAKE IT BRIGHTER..

If you have a problem with it being too dark to see properly, don't enter places specifically known for being extremely dark.

6
Rainwalker007•

CIG cant win anyway, just see what happen with hovermode.. weeks of whinging about it till they changed it then we got weeks of whinging about removing it.

6
Tiranasta•

Hover mode is different because it's very difficult to play the game without engaging with it at some point. Caves, on the other hand, are an entirely optional part of the experience. Anyone who doesn't enjoy the experience of being in a cave can quite easily simply never visit one. I don't mean that flippantly either. Star Citizen is meant to be a universe. Different things in that universe will appeal to different people, and that's a good thing.

5
Facist_Canadiannew user/low karma•

Yea but hover mode is easy as fuck to use and makes sense.

-1†
MerminotaurOP•

True, CIG can't please everyone. But I didn't make this post to say that you shouldn't be able to see in caves at all; they can be as lit as you want them to be, I don't care. But only if the light has a source. Honestly, personally I find nothing cinematic about the composition of a dark scene that isn't dark and lacks a source for that lack of darkness. If there's no light source, the scene just looks washed out. That's the only point I wanted to make. I don't care if every cave comes pre-installed with lightbulbs. Just need a source. That's all.

2
Deathray88RECLAIMED!•

If you have a problem with it being to bright and "un-immersive" don't go in caves.

0†
DeathofaSpacesub•

hit T key.....unless you give us a dark flashlight....shut it

-6
Deathray88RECLAIMED!•

So it's ok for him to say "If you don't like it don't play it" but not me? Fuck off with that elitist bullshit.

0†
DeathofaSpacesub•

Well I want it dark....those other fucks can use the god damn flashlight.

-5
Olindoga•

As an avid amateur wild caver, 100x this. I want to walk into a cave that hasn't been explored (or is vacant without flares or bioluminescent shrooms or whatever) and have it get quickly too dark to see without your helmet light. I want to turn off my light and be presented with a pitch black screen and weird sounds that slowly get more ominous until you just can't stand the tension anymore.

26
Cyberwulf74•

Some idiot on the Youtube comments said..."Unless its a scientist, people don't explore caves........I politely told him to Look up Spelunking and cave diving....

8
bacon-was-taken•

Darkness is good for gameplay. It makes a light management loop and ultimately avoid-getting-lost loop. I don't mind a bit of both though, it's not like it all needs to be pitch black

25
ArchRangercarrack•

Honestly nearly all caves should be pitch black. Flashlights and gear should be part of the mandatory stuff needed for spelunking. This is no different then properly preparing for long term space exploration or expeditions. Hopefully they will learn more towards a realistic experience rather than an arcade-y one with their obsession with fidelity and experience.

18
DawnstealerOff human-Banu-ing in the Turtleverse•

Yap - agreed. Darkness needs to be dark, not "dark." I shouldn't be able to see just by turning up the brightness on my monitor a little.

6
azkaiinew user/low karma•

It's easy, add less lighting assist as caves get deeper, give us chem lights, done. All the best shit is at the end where it's darkest. Gameplay loop.

5
DeathofaSpacesub•

Amen, don't fall into the trap of the artists wanting to show off too much. Games with real dark are rare....SC needs to be one of them.

​

We are given flashlights for a reason and damn it....give us a reason to use them... I'm great with light in places that need it logically....not places that are supposed to actually be dark and force the use of a light or guess the environment.

5
JohnnySkynets•

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/d3eh8t/caves_should_be_completely_dark_and_without_mist/

4
MerminotaurOP•

Yep, beat me to it. I was on my phone on the couch when I made this. Was gonna delete it after seeing the other post but this one already had people talking, so, as long as it contributes to discussion, eh?

2
Teh_yak•

I utterly agree with this. If something is hard, but may be overcome with skill, care or just time then it's a good mechanism to keep in. If things need to be made easier, then the tools should be available, like the flares you say. Not glowing rocks. Dark is good old fashioned scary.

4
niq-o•

I'm with you 100%. Not a fan of stuff being dumbed down for whatever reason..farcical that you won't be able to get lost or stuck in the caves, saying that we get stuck in bed so..

3
kinren•

I think the lighting is fine. Its a game. The light is ominous as well and maybe when they imporve flashlight tech will get darker caves.

You see, in the video, the flashlight is so bright you can't see anything in the distance. If you turn the flashlight off, without any lighting you would see nothing. So that sounds like a lot of fun, see nothing when light is on, see nothing when light is off (sarcasm). I like their solution.

Caves do need some kind of lighting, for a good gameplay experience.

3†
logicalChimphttps://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/c8.8.103.103/14821•

Yes - but the point is there should be a logical source for that lighting... such as the glow-worms that CIG demo'd. And glow-worms are far from the only option.

Instead, CIG have - effectively - just made all players able to see in the dark instead.

5
kinren•

That is fine. I get your point. I think, for now, you have to provide lighting because there is no gameplay features that allow us to see well in caves. No torches, no nightvision, no flares, etc. We have a bright ass flashlight that makes us see nothing in front of us in small spaces.

1
logicalChimphttps://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/c8.8.103.103/14821•

Yup - and they've said they're working on the flashlight.

And I listed a bunch of alternatives they could use, without requiring 'gameplay features' (ie by giving their ambient lighting a logical explanation than 'we want you to be able to see without a torch').

I could see the current solution being a stop-gap measure due to lack of time for anything fancier, but given all of CIGs talk about giving teams 6 months because 3 months led to rushed work and lack of quality, that would suggest the caves really should have been a 3.8 solution - but I guess that would have also nyxed most of the other functionality in the patch...

either way, it just feels like a lazy solution (not saying the dev was lazy etc, only that the solution could have been better if CIG put more thought into it)

3
MerminotaurOP•

Hey, next time can I just send you my thoughts and you can eloquently reword them? You explained things much better than me.

1
meatball4u•

CIG has thought of this I'm sure, they're not dumb. But they've decided against pitch black caves probably for good reason. I don't mind them getting artistic with it

3†
MerminotaurOP•

See, what I got from the video, though, is that yes, they indeed have thought about it and decided to have illogical lighting because they're aiming for a "cinematic" experience. Now, I've made zero movies, but I think this is difficult to do with dark scenes without making everything look washed out and grey, which is what it looked like in what they showed us. I would go as far as to say that it is a flaw in cinematography, because, as a viewer, there is nothing quite like illogically illuminated dark scenes to throw me out of the cinematic experience (I'm talking about movies here) and back onto my couch. There are films that did it well, I'm sure (though I can't think of any right now that didn't have some source of light in the shot), but in gaming it has failed every single time, as far as the games I've played or watched being played, anyway.

I'm all for CIG being artistic. And in the past images that we've seen where it was properly dark and had light sources they created something really cool to look at and experience. Lighting is one of the most important aspects in a video game, and placing light sprites without working them into the scene immediately jumps out of the screen as sort of cheating.

Think, for example, of the Constellation. I don't think it has any lights in the flight deck when it's powered off, so when the light shafts come through the canopy it looks fantastic. But these caves will be brighter? It juts against the experience in the opposite direction.

3
meatball4u•

What I've seen so far has been altered by my phone's screen, which makes the blacks much blacker. I couldn't see a damn thing when they were showing off the artificial lighting, so I figure it's not very strong lighting. If it's dim I'm not that worried.

If the alternative is to explore with our flashlights, then I'm fairly glad they are going with artificial light. The flashlight in SC is not great, and blows everything out. If they bring in a hint of color I'd prefer that myself over seeing blown out rock

2
logicalChimphttps://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/c8.8.103.103/14821•

They did say they were aware of the issue with the flashlight, and the tech team were working on it (or something like that)

5
MerminotaurOP•

Well, I did watch it on my TV on the couch... which is not where I'll be playing SC, so, perhaps I'll rewatch it on my PC to see how it looks. Still, it's a pet peeve of mine when there is illogical illumination in games.

And yeah, the current flashlight can be much better. I hope they figure something good out for it.

1
StygianSavior•

Now, I've made zero movies, but I think this is difficult to do with dark scenes without making everything look washed out and grey

This sounds like improperly calibrated monitoring on your end; are you cranking up the brightness on your TV during dark scenes? That will wash out the image.

It isn't difficult to shoot dark scenes with ONLY available natural light with modern digital cinema cameras. If you are then adding light on top of that and color grading in post, you should be able to get amazing results even with relatively modest lighting packages (you can do a lot with a few LED sources these days).

And honestly, being able to shoot in practically zero light is not new. Kubrick was doing it in the 1970's for Barry Lyndon using only candles for lighting, and pulled it off by using the lenses developed for NASA to use during the Apollo moon landings (and by using a chemical push during the developing process - "fix it in post" is at least as old as the 70's too I guess).

there is nothing quite like illogically illuminated dark scenes to throw me out of the cinematic experience

Any gaffer worth their salt ought to know to motivate their sources. Agreed that seeing an unmotivated source would take me out of the experience. Lighting mismatch is one of the easiest ways to make vfx look like trash.

EDIT:

Should add, I think this is a LOT harder to do in video games. In real life, even if your camera isn't sensitive enough to detect it, light is bouncing around everywhere - even at night. If you are in any kind of artificial environment, there is ample light bouncing around that you can play with when trying to film something. So the game becomes getting your camera and lenses as sensitive as possible, and then finding any light source and (if necessary) using your artificial lights to amplify that source (but not so much that your lights look "source-y" and fake).

In video games, as far as I'm aware, illuminating a scene using dynamically bounced light is only something that is just starting to be done, with ray tracing. And my understanding (not an expert in this area at all) is that until recently this was very computationally expensive, and the way around this is using specially designed hardware (like the nVidia RTX cards).

So your options were to basically either have actual light sources in every dark environment (which doesn't really make sense for an unexplored cave - like "oh, how convenient that this unexplored cave in an uninhabited system whose jump point I just discovered has a few glow sticks left in the corner") or to kind of fake it for dark scenes (resulting in the "I can see perfectly fine, but everything is kind of grey and dark and washed out").

1
MerminotaurOP•

This is a meaty comment, thanks! Still going through it, but I will say that it very well could've been my TV being improperly calibrated.

And if there are sources of light, be it natural or something as soft as candles, as you mentioned, then it could look just great while not being pitch black. And that's all I really care about, a source for the light.

1
DeathofaSpacesub•

I do, flashlights.....use em

1
Rygir•

People often make bad decisions because they are scared. CIG is scared players won't understand how to deal with pitch black. They are taking the easy way out.

1
Le_Patches•

It stays in the nice caves until its eyes get used to it, my precioussss!

2
LordValgor•

Someone wasn’t around when planetoids came out, and the dark sides were pitch black...

(Everyone complained, so CIG changed it)

2
MerminotaurOP•

Oh I was there. Been here for a little bit. I've never been in space, though, so that doesn't break the immersion for me.

1
StygianSavior•

Pretty sure they "changed" it by improving ship lights, no? Most ship spotlights used to be far too weak to light up the surface in time for you to slow down/avoid an obstacle. Now they can illuminate stuff from quite a large distance.

The dark side of a planet is still very dark, and I'm not aware of them adding any unnatural lighting. Pretty sure the lighting source in the PU is still a single point source coming from the star (unless you are near outposts or other artificial lights). They hyped that up a lot.

But even on Earth, the surface at night is not 100% pitch black. Moonlight and starlight are enough to let the human eye resolve enough detail to get around on foot.

1
Z31SPLoutlaw1•

Nah they added some ambient light to the dark side of planets and moons

2
Spicy_meatball97new user/low karma•

My worry is the quantity. I just really hope that we see a lot of caves in the verse when it comes out it 3.7 . It's going to be very disappointing if we only get 1 or 2 caves per moon/planet especially that they are procedurally generated and scattered. I would hope for at least 50 caves so they can have the "whats that over there, let me go check it out" random encounters when exploring moons and planets and it's not one hot point on a moon where you'd find 3 other players already exploring it.

2
davidnfilmsU4A-3 Terror Pin•

If I was watching it right, I think whenever he put a light, a tiny cable held light was installed there.

​

And there were glowsticks in the sides.

1
MerminotaurOP•

Then I may need to rewatch it. A source (for the light), that's all I want.

Also, I love glowsticks. And not because I dated a raver once.

2
Borbaradsantokyai•

my god. So happy CIG is making the game and not this community.

1
MerminotaurOP•

Yeah, we'd never get it done.

2
SethSAFreelancer•

Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING! The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!

1
MerminotaurOP•

You must join us or die.

We got DEATHSTAR!

2