Source
r/WorldOfWarships•
Lord-Prometheus

[PROPOSAL] Sensible, targeted Soviet battleship nerfs from a Soviet main

Discussion

Title. No dilly dally, imma get right to the point.

1. Soviet battleships have near-immunity to DoT effects. Supposedly, the counter to ships with high HE dmg resistance is fires; typically BBs don't get to be good at BOTH. Let's start by changing this: Significantly nerf the Soviet DCP. As an example: "From tiers 3-7, the DCP reload would be nerfed by 40%, and on tiers 8-10, it would be nerfed by 25%." These are speculatory numbers; It doesn't have to be a specific %, just enough remove the functional immunity to DoT effects, but still be more resistant to them than the average BB.

I would not advise REMOVAL of the Soviet DCP however. I fear this could cause issues with them actually gaining tankiness in the mid-late game. One of their supposed weaknesses is bad sustainability, with 1 fewer charge of repair and limited (but fast) DCP. Let's keep that but remove the functional DoT immunity.

2. Knyaz Suvorov, Gangut, Pyotr Velikiy, and Sinop have excessive armor plating at their respective tiers, far and away better than any of their contemporaries. This needs to go, it is absurd and much too effective. I will not get into the minuetia of what should be changed and where; my two main points would be that they SHOULD be able to be overmatched through the nose where applicable, and they should NOT completely LOSE the armor advantage. Some of the plates should remain thicker than normal but nothing that's yellow or orange in the armor viewer. Also, the deck thicknesses should all be standardized to the NORMAL deck thicknesses for the tiers they belong to (for ships this is relevant to)

3. All right, to the elephant in the room: Kremlin. I have already suggested exhaustive nerfs that I feel will bring the rest of the pack to heel - it's time now for the big bad.

First off, I would NOT immediately nerf these things: HP pool, sigma, turning circle/RST, gun firing range, heal type/# of charges, belt/turret armor thickness, probably some other things I've forgotten about

That's still a huge toolbox to play with. Stick with me. There are multiple options here, not ALL of these nerfs have to go through. These are merely my suggestions for things that COULD be nerfed seperately OR together.

  • Firstly, I would remove the angle on Kremlin's belt armor. Project 24's armor layout calls for a 430/410mm belt angled at 10 degrees. THIS is what gives Kremlin a resistance to citadels that ships like Soyuz and Vladivostok do not. It increases the effective armor thickness by what I assume to be enough to stop other big-gun BBs and everything else from citadeling it. This should go - Kremlin needs to be vulnerable to cits as a BASELINE. (I'm not going to get into how this change only hurts potatoes and whatnot because that's not really the point.)

  • Secondly, please nerf the concealment. Why does the biggest, tankiest BB at TX also have some of the best concealment? This flies directly in the face of the Soviet national flavor; Moskva, Stalingrad, Grozovoi, and Khabarovsk each have some of the worst or the LITERAL worst concealment and their tiers. Kremlin should have some of the worst too! Kurfurst has this tradeoff, why doesn't Kremlin? Utter nonsense. Enough said.

  • Third, reduce the upper belt side plating and the midships deck to 50mm. (same with Soyuz) This is to make it damageable whilst angled and lessen its' innate HE resistance; now German CAs and supercruisers can damage the deck with HE. Suddenly, Kremlin fears Hindenburg and Puerto Rico.

  • Fourth - yes, fourth, WG, deal with it - Kremlin (and Vlad and Soyuz) should get 45s turret traverse at the fastest. I know that Projects 23 & 24 was probably designed to be as fast as Roma or UP.41, but for the sake of balance I'll sacrifice it.

  • Fifth - bring torpedo protection down to AT THE HIGHEST 40%. Somewhere in the mid-30s will do.

And lastly, I do have a personal grievance against this ship. I know this is going to be something absolutely no one gives a shit about, but can we please 1. delete Slava 2. move Slava's guns (minus the absurd dispersion) to Kremlin? They would have Slava's shell stats, no 30mm overmatch, but identical sigma/dispersion to Kremlin's current battery. This is in some ways an upgrade; better shell velocity/flight time and better penetration, with a minimal decrease in alpha given the recent nerf the Kremlin's alpha shown on the devblog.

Oh and please rename it whilst we're at it. Sovetskaya Rossiya, Slava, or Volya are good picks - Kremlin and Pobeda are not.

That's all I have. Direct and to the point. Please don't be a total dick in response; I tried to put actual thought into this and why I want which stuff nerfed.

EDIT1: clarifications/revisions

Posted Sep 27, 2019, 8:17 AM UTC · edited

10876
G3nesis_PrimeSEA Main. 203mm ≥ or go home •

Everything you said is pretty bang on point, I know I've said Kremlin isn't op in the past but I've also said she is strong.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the points you brought up tested on the pts minus the 3rd point or 1st point as that may be too much at once if combined.

34
tejanaqkilicaPre Alpha Tester•

I'm not going to say Kremlin is Overpowered (It is), I'm gonna say it's OverPerformer. However you need to take into consideration that if your points were to be applied to Kremlin, it would heavily impact her performance in the game. The Soviet DCP is annoying, but it's a must, otherwise a BB that sits at ~14km will get burned to death by CL and CA in a matter of minutes. While they could lower the deck armor so it takes more alpha damage, they should not mess with the DCP.

Concealment, yes and since they're at it, hmmm Conqueror? Not that Conqueror players get closer than 20km because reasons, still just come on. Henri IV and Moskva have a very bad concealment, a BB should start there at a minimum.

Turret traverse, while I'm currently grinding the Kremlin and I very much enjoy the fast turret traverse. it's pff, stupid, it should be nerfed.

However NONE of this are going to change because it seems to me that WG is creating a new type of ships/gameplay that f*cks the old ships. If you look at it, Kremlin resistance to HE shells and fires is effective against DM, ZAO's ect, it is not that effective against Smolensk. Kremlin turret traverse is very good for hitting DDs that get spotted, DDs like Shima, Harugumo, Gearing.. But not Kleber. This ships are in good concert with one another, but they completely wipe the floor with the rest of the ships, and unfortunately that is going to stick and we're having to embrace the new meta.

28
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

I took everything into consideration. (Duh.)

I know what I’m doing here and I think my suggestions are fine and I also know it’s quite fruitless, but I don’t give a shit. I put this here because I wanted to.

8
tejanaqkilicaPre Alpha Tester•

Oh no, don't get me wrong, you did very well for putting this up, it helps people create a better idea about a certain ship. I'm just sad that the game is moving completely in another direction and the old ships I have are becoming irrelevant each day.

9
Kmoxy•

Are you saying that the Kremlin and Kleber have been made for the new meta which gives the impression that they're overpowered? If so, I agree. EXCEPT that damn Soviet commander that gives them a free insta-heal and DCP near low health. It's unfair and makes Kremlin way more tanky then it should be.

3
tejanaqkilicaPre Alpha Tester•

Are you saying that the Kremlin and Kleber have been made for the new meta

Yes

And yes, Kuznetsov gives Kremlin a huge advantage with that perk. You're in the Shimakaze, you have a double perma flod on the Kremlin, and he doesn't die. That should not be a thing, you are forcing me that after the torpedo hit to gun down the Kremlin and that's not a good idea. Furthermore while Admiral Halsey and Yamamoto have some perks as well with the better reload on the guns/torps/plane regeneration you have to actively work for them you need the Confederate for Halsey and Kraken unleashed for Yamamoto. With Kuznetsov you just need to play the game normaly and boom talent activated.

19
OhNoThatSucksSlow Learner•

I really hate how many players approach the topic of balancing not from the perspective of "Is the ship balanced?", but "Do I main this ship?".

When russian BBs were still WIP I made a post questioning why on earth do they deserve such good concealment. I was downvoted to shit, with a school of experts lecturing me why they needed every single millimeter of that to get close but never got around to answer the question "Why couldn't GK get the same?"

26
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

Certainly not the approach I took. On Discord after some lengthy conversation over the course of a few weeks, I made up this list, even included some things I personally wouldn’t have immediately gone for initially.

Compromise is how you balance with things you like. I took care to try and do that.

8
FailureToReport•

but never got around to answer the question "Why couldn't GK get the same?"

we all know why.......it's flying the wrong flag.

5
Shinzon1•

The issue with these nerf suggestions is will it kill the enjoyment of the line? We have seen this before in the Pan Asian line. Unpopular nerfs result in a feeling of loss and loss is psychologically painful so players stop going down the line.

I know for damn sure slow turret traverse, slow loading weapons, poor armor layouts, poor gun angles and bad concealment all make me want to leave a line alone. If the Kremlin looses what makes it unique it will become unattractive to play just like the YueYang.

10
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

I did not go "reee make them the worst at everything" did I? I don't want these ships to be irrelevant, it's my favorite line in the game, and Kremlin should be my favorite ship in the game. This doesn't mean they can't be balanced, and I want them to be, without making them horrendously comfortable.

I know for damn sure slow turret traverse, slow loading weapons, poor armor layouts, poor gun angles and bad concealment all make me want to leave a line alone. If the Kremlin looses what makes it unique it will become unattractive to play just like the YueYang.

I really think you need to pay more attention to what I actually said. I would not make the TT "bad", 45s is average for tier 10. A 50mm upper belt and deck is still very strong for tier 10, and the upper belt could be even higher - the numbers aren't concrete. The gun angles are some of the best at TX and I didn't nerf those. I also, notably, did not nerf anything about the gunpower very intentionally - that would have made the ship uncomfortable.

7
Shinzon1•

This was a generalized comment not explicitly tied to your comment OP. I’m acutely aware of what you wrote. I was offering another context on nerfs. You can see that my first sentence was in the form of a question, it wasn’t declarative. No one said you went “reee”.

1
RustyMcBucket•

Well Soviet BB's currently kill enjoyment for everything else.

-1†
PanzerTitus•

And you mentioned that you have "a personal grievance against this ship". Wow what a wonderful way to make an argument and prove your point. Doing so already calls into question whether you want to nerf said ship out of spite instead of balance.

The main draw of Soviet BB's is their durability. I enjoy absorbing damage in them. If WG implements changes like the poster suggested however, especially the armor nerfs, DCP nerfs and removing the 457mm guns for the 406's. We would have a shittier version of the GK. With no hydro, with a slower reload and less DPM and less guns to boot, with the handling characteristics of a whale with it's tail chopped off and with no turtleback....and you want it to close in and/or brawl. Oh and poor sustainability.

Of course, this assumes that the new and "improved" Kremlin even survives to the midpoint of the match (unless it hides behind an island!, such dynamic and fun gameplay!), given that all those dirty, uncultured scum in their HE spamming ships (which do melt the Kremlin in it's current state fyi, it just takes a bit longer) would be shitting on the Kremlin the moment they see it. And just like the poor GK, it's going to be reduced to a pile of burning metal quite quickly i imagine.

The only nerf that i do agree with you on, is the concealment nerf. That one makes sense. The Kremlin is a big ship and it should have the concealment that matches it. Other than that, the rest of your nerf suggestions, piled atop one after the other, are too much.

9
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

And you mentioned that you have "a personal grievance against this ship".

Because it's my favorite paper ship and I wanted to be interpreted as closely to the design as possible? Right, go ahead, I'll pack up and get outta here then!

Points about the guns

It's much more accurate than GK at every range and the shells Slava has are wicked fast at 870m/s and have close to the best pen at TX. This is why having only 9 guns is fine. The main target of this nerf is the 30mm overmatch - with WG's recent proposed alpha change on the 457s (it goes down to 14,500) that isn't a significant difference in DPM. I wouldn't mind shifting the reload back to 30s though, it's not something I am opposed to.

The main draw of Soviet BB's is their durability. I enjoy absorbing damage in them

There's durability, and then there's what the Soviet BBs have. Did you actually read what I said? I don't think you did, because I specified that Soviet BBs should retain plating that is better than average for their tier, as to not completely evaporate the strength they have.

The DCP nerf's numbers don't have to be exactly what I suggested. Cutting the reload on it by a more moderate percentage would be fine.

given that all those dirty, uncultured scum in their HE spamming ships (which do melt the Kremlin in it's current state fyi, it just takes a bit longer) would be shitting on the Kremlin the moment they see it.

Laughs in Russian

6
PanzerTitus•

Because it's my favorite paper ship and I wanted to be interpreted as closely to the design as possible? Right, go ahead, I'll pack up and get outta here then!

Pack and go then. My point still stands, you never start or end a topic about balance by stating that you are biased against something, in the case the Kremlin.

It's much more accurate than GK at every range and the shells Slava has are wicked fast at 870m/s and have close to the best pen at TX. This is why having only 9 guns is fine. The main target of this nerf is the 30mm overmatch - with WG's recent proposed alpha change on the 457s (it goes down to 14,500) that isn't a significant difference in DPM. I wouldn't mind shifting the reload back to 30s though, it's not something I am opposed to.

I wish i had your Kremlin mate, mine tends to miss or straddle targets past 17km's. Save for those who repeatedly sail in straight lines and/or are big targets to begin with. Most of my kills occur at 16-15km below.

As for the gun change, i might be able to accept it, so long as they reduce the reload to 29, maybe 28 seconds. However, even then, i question the need to even change the guns on the Kremlin. Despite being an 18 inch weapon, it's functionally no different from the Republique's guns in terms of overmatch anyway. So i don't think it's neccessary.

Also :

No. My grievance is the ahistorical representation of Kremlin by it having 457mm guns.

This "historical argument" argument should have died in World of Tanks. These games are arcade games in the end. Where a tank or a ship can function and fight effectively even with just 1hp. That's without counting about all the other paper ships in the game. Also the Kremlin's files were so secret that WG had to make shit up from scratch going by the Soviet BB design video they released a while back.

In short, the whole historical/ahistorical spiel needs to stop.

​

Did you actually read what I said?

I did read what you said, and again, i question this decision. The 60mm deck armor on the Kremlin and the Soyuz is no different functionally from the 57mm deck on the Yamato, and most of the Hindi, Yoshino and HIV drivers i know slot IFHE to shit on them anyway ((fun gameplay!!)). Unlike the Yamato though, most Kremlin's, including mine, spend their time in the middle to close range, we need that 60mm plating.

Ultimately, the Kremlin is merely the symptom of a bigger problem. It was designed to survive in this HE infested meta. Nerf the HE spam and the IFHE skill, rework HE so that it deals damage that is proportionate to the armor thickness (but not too much so that it doesn't become a DPM monster that eats everything) instead of just shattering uselessly...and then a Kremlin rework is possible.

((Edit.)) : Also, after thinking on it, yeah the Sinop should only have an icebreaker bow and not have the whole nose armored. The rest of the armor scheme should stay the same though.

0
sstrevorson414•

I believe his grievance was against the Slava, not the Kremlin. I also think he wanted to remove the Slava and have its guns be a researchable alternative to the current Kremlin guns, and he wasn't suggesting do all of the nerfs at once, but try some of them out. These are just all ways they COULD nerf it to bring it in line. At least that's how I read it.

*Edit to complete my thought.

2
PanzerTitus•

Then you clearly missed this bit or you are reading a different post altogether.

(( And lastly, I do have a personal grievance against this ship. I know this is going to be something absolutely no one gives a shit about, but can we please 1. delete Slava 2. move Slava's guns (MINUS THE ACCURACY) to Kremlin? They would have Slava's shell stats, no 30mm overmatch, but identical sigma/dispersion to Kremlin's current battery. ))

The words " and lastly, i do have a personal grievance against this ship" refers to the Kremlin, which comes after a long list of nerfs the poster wishes to apply to the ship to turn it into a poor man's Kurfurst in the #3 segment of of the poster's proposal.

​

The Slava bit refers to the fact that he wants the Slava scrapped entirely (which is completely fine, that ship is dogshit anyway), and instead, replacing the new and "improved" Kremlin's 457's with the Slava's guns, except that is fires slower than all it's other classmates with similar weapons.

The Concealment nerf is the only nerf that i agree with, as it's completely stupid for a ship that matches the GK in size to be more stealthy than a Moskva.

​

When you combine all of these nerfs in the proposal and take into account the current HE spam IFHE combo meta, all we'll end up having is, in other words, a discount GK. Russian version. In this "improved form", the only thing anyone can positively say is that it has better AA.

0†
RustyMcBucket•

Currently why would you play a lot of ships when you could just play the Soviet BBs? They're good at everything right?

They don't even have poor AA or anything. They're arty is good, their durability is good, their manoverability is good their turret traverse is good their conceilment is good. They can't be citadelled. They have a quick damcon with enough charges. They're laser accurate.

What is actually genuinly bad about them?

3
PanzerTitus•

Only the Kremlin has good AA. The Soyuz, Vlad and Sinop have bad AA for their tier and fragile to boot. In addition, the Soyuz and Vlad are ships that are really easy to punish. Even the overperforming Sinop can be beaten down easily if it exposes it's broadside or gets picked on by a carrier. Again, i played these ships, so i know.

The main issue i have with the listed nerfs is that they are too much, especially for the Kremlin, and doubly so when you consider the current meta. It's made even worse when you realise that the main draw of the Soviet BB's was their superb durability and they were advertised as such. If you take away it's armor and nerf the DCP, well there's just nothing durable about them anymore, and nerfing the Kremlin's firepower to that extent as the poster suggested does nothing to fix the problem. It just creates another Yueyang situation.

Now, that being said i definitely think the Kremlin should be nerfed firepower wise up to a degree. It's tank and sponge machine that's meant to absorb damage and while it should have nasty guns, that's not where the flavor of the line is. I think WG's latest ST nerfs intended for the Kremlin was a step in the right direction. The flavor of the line is durability and short range, short duration engagements. Nerfing the firepower means that the Kremlin is still durable, but it can no long face punch it's way through it's enemies. Not without help.

In essence, the Kremlin is now like the Soyuz, the tier 9 has arguably mediocre firepower, owing to it's long reload and it's wonky as hell and prone to overpens and straddling shots. But, it's the most durable of it's tier, especially when angled. The new Kremlin follows this model, with long reload guns which are nasty, but arguable a step behind from other nations.

​

The ultimate fix however, must be reserved for the meta. WG created this ridiculous HE spam bullshit and rather than fix said bullshit, they introduced new ships with traits that allow them to survive in the HE spam meta.

((Edited))

0†
sstrevorson414•

It seems to refer to the Slava because that's the ship he wants deleted rather than nerfed. I think you're reading into it too much because you think he's being heavy handed with the nerf bat.

1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

I want Slava deleted because it's a dumb clone of an already paper ship. It's a seperate point to the one I'm making about Kremlin.

1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

No. My grievance is the ahistorical representation of Kremlin by it having 457mm guns.

0
Tobi_1989•

I'm not sure if i agree with you on everything (on most things, yes, but some points just seem like they would kinda kill the line), but the concealment and turret traverse points are undeniable, it's ridiculous how both of those are actually better than Moskva's.

7
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

I've tried my best not to pick things I feel would "kill the line", rather only things I felt were excessive and deserving.

This is why no nerfs to dispersion or sigma were mentioned. I think the gunnery on these things is mostly fine. (also why I'm mad about the Vladivostok nerf)

2
Tobi_1989•

Personaly, i think the DamCon cooldown nerf would be too much, as it would basically turn it into regular DamCon with limited charges. Nerfing the duration sure, be my guest, current 10s is too short to be effectively utilized as DoT immunity under focused fire anyway, but the short cooldown is in long term downside of its own if the russian BB just spams it off quickly.

3
YurraSickPark[OMNI] balans, tovarishch•

All of these are valid points. However, if you implement all of these nerfs, Kremlin will likely become irrelevant.

The main gripe I have with the ship is, of course, the stupidly good durability, as well as the way too good main battery consistency on a ship that is supposed to be good at medium and close range. Considering WG is attempting to deal with the guns by reducing the alpha damage (which is the wrong way to go about it, they should have nerfed the sigma to 1.8), that leaves her durability to be nerfed. I suggest the following: DCP cooldown increase to 60s, or a reduction in charges to 4 max (prem + SI), a concealment nerf to 14.5km (which indirectly nerfs her durability by allowing the enemy to start spamming her sooner) (also why the fuck should the beefiest ship in the game have relatively good stealth on top), and a nerf to the upper belt armor to 60mm.

I simply can't help the thought that nerfing the deck armor to 50mm would bring her durability down too much as 50mm HE pen cruisers have become abundant, and she isn't able to heal up as much HP as most other T10 BBs, in the long run.

4
PanzerTitus•

All of these are valid points. However, if you implement all of these nerfs, Kremlin will likely become irrelevant.

Pretty much, doing so recreates the whole Yueyang situation. Out of 10 or more games, i may only see one of those DD's.

Considering WG is attempting to deal with the guns by reducing the alpha damage (which is the wrong way to go about it, they should have nerfed the sigma to 1.8),

I thought the Kremlin's sigma was 1.8??...but then again i should not be surprised if they buffed it 2.0. WG's balans department operates on 2 modes, make it too good or make it unplayable.

​

I suggest the following: DCP cooldown increase to 60s, or a reduction in charges to 4 max (prem + SI), a concealment nerf to 14.5km (which indirectly nerfs her durability by allowing the enemy to start spamming her sooner) (also why the fuck should the beefiest ship in the game have relatively good stealth on top), and a nerf to the upper belt armor to 60mm.

I disagree with DCP nerfs of any kind, but the concealment nerf and upper belt armor nerf to 60mm's is fine.

​

I simply can't help the thought that nerfing the deck armor to 50mm would bring her durability down too much as 50mm HE pen cruisers have become abundant, and she isn't able to heal up as much HP as most other T10 BBs, in the long run.

Not to mention that damned IFHE skill.

​

Edited

2
YurraSickPark[OMNI] balans, tovarishch•

Not to mention that damned IFHE skill.

It's only really problematic on 1 T10 ship, and that is the Henri. If there was a bigger fire chance tradeoff, it would no longer be problematic, but other high tier IFHE ships would likely become overnerfed.

1
PanzerTitus•

How so?, i mean, doesn't IFHE give a flat 30% increase on HE pens for guns below and above 139mm?

1
YurraSickPark[OMNI] balans, tovarishch•

It does, but it doesn't really make any T10 OP except for the Henri. It's only really problematic on Aki, Kita and T6/7 CLs.

1
SchiffSchiffI Schlacht Schiff•

I have played the line too and I certainly agree with some of your points but not all of them. I think the lower tier ones should have their extremity plating nerfed which would help and I certainly agree with the changes to Kremlin's belt inclination and concealment. The traverse nerf is fine too since it should still be fast for a close range line.

However I think the nerf to the damage control is too much for high tiers. This could be fair for the mid tiers maybe but I don't think would be great at high tiers. Many games so far in my Kremlin involve getting melted by HE spammers hitting my superstructure regardless of the armor. It certainly doesn't feel immune to damage like I hear lots of people say although I understand their frustration.

I'm just happy to see criticism that isn't hateful complaints about the line because its Russian with no suggestions about how it'd be better implemented. Adopting some of these changes would probably help but I think all of them would be a little too much.

3
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

However I think the nerf to the damage control is too much for high tiers.

You may be right. That's why the 50% number isn't fixed; it could easily be like, 40% nerf for tiers 3-7 and only 20% nerf for 8-10. That number wasn't intended to be concrete, only to illustrate the point I was making about DoT immunity.

I'm just happy to see criticism that isn't hateful complaints

Well apparently some people took it that way regardless...

But yeah, I love this line. It was something I anticipated in spite of Reddit's russian hateboner for years - that doesn't mean it can't be balanced too.

2
ClockworkZ12•

You are very spot on. Especially with a concealment nerf.

Wargaming has never understood the fundamentals of balance, nor the statistics that drive conclusions about balance. Not in WoT, not in WoWP not in WoWs.

It is already 100% nonsensical that the game has ANY BB with better concealment than ANY Cruiser. It doesn't matter if it is a "Light" Cruiser, "Fat" Cruiser, "Heavy" Cruiser, "Super" Cruiser, "Large" Cruiser, or even "Battle" Cruiser. NONE, not a single one, of the BBs of the same tier should have better concealment, in fact.... the only sensible way it is even close to balance is that the "stealthiest" BB should still have noticeably worse concealment than the "Least Stealthy" Cruiser. There isn't a single Cruiser that takes up a Cruiser slot that has BB sized armament of the same tier. There isn't a single Cruiser that takes up a Cruiser slot that has BB belt armor, Citadel protection, nor torpedo protection. Concealment is one of the multiple ways that should reflect that. Simple. This is a standard the whole game should follow.

3
sstrevorson414•

I agree with you but the Graf Spee has BB guns on a T6. It definitely doesn't have the armor though.

1
Kmoxy•

Isn't Scharnhorst a cruiser with bb protection? 🤔

edit: Oh nevermind I see what you're saying!

1
SteveThePurpleCatDitch subs or account goes. •

They just have a bit too much everything, makes it difficult to see where to even start with balancing. Can withstand nuclear blasts? Check. Shells hit like rods from God? Check. Make everything else seem obsolete? Check.

2†
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

They just have a bit too much everything, makes it difficult to see where to even start with balancing.

Well, I just tried to, didn't I?

5
BirthHole•

Soviet battleships have near-immunity

Allegedly

2†
charliedontsurf334•

I am only at the Izmail, but I have not run run out of Dam Con yet.

1
BirthHole•

Are you another alleged soviet main who just cant stand having OP ships?

-1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

Oh, I see what you meant before. Lol.

You can like ships and still make them balanced lmao

5
charliedontsurf334•

There is no way in Heaven or on Earth I could be a Russian main. Please reread my post, it isn't long. I said I am only at the Izmail on the Russian BB line! Hardly trying to pretent to be a Russian main. The only tier X's I have are US and British. I want to have some balance in the game. I was one of the few who think that the Guilio Caesare should have been nerfed. Yes, they do nerf premiums, pretty massively in some cases like the Graf Zepplin. I get annoyed when real ships get slapped around by overpowered fantasy ships for...reasons. There are plenty of paper designs in game that help fill out lines where there are holes. I have an issue when a Tier V Russian BB's bow cannot be overmatched by anything in the game except British BB HE.

My point was that one of the "weaknesses" of the Russian BB's has imo not been a real factor, and I admitted my bias from the start. I cannot speak to the other ships as I have not played them. Sheesh!

3
FailureToReport•

LMAO.......fucking where do they find you people?

I've only played USN and KM since the beta, I finally caved to WG Stalinium might the other night and was literally afk shooting while I cruised down the middle of the map because the GF was distracting me, and I still didn't die.......that was some shit if I had done in the "TOTALLY FER BRAWLIN" KM BB's I'd have been blown apart for doing.

I love all the people who are fine with shitting on the KM BB's going "hur dur they are supposed to fail to hit anything accurately over 10k!" but they are also a joke in durability compared to Soviet BB's, a non lemming Soviet BB player will brawl the hell out of a KM BB, their guns are faster and more accurate, they get a commander that is literally fucking broken, literally everything about Soviet WG BB's is better than their counterparts, but people like you come in here going

"Reee, ALLEGEDLY Op. reeee"

1
[deleted]•

From direct experience - unlike the lower tiers, Sinop can get citadel'd through the nose. It has an icebreaker bow, but the upper part is 25mm like everyone else.

2
TenguBladeNoots internally•

I don’t see why everyone insists on nerfing Soviet BBs’ gimmick. By design the line is supposed to be extremely-potent in skilled hands, and punishing in potato ones. I’d rather see the skill floor raised by making these ships as punishing to get wrong as Soviet CAs are than have the ceiling lowered. Especially when Soviet BB-led pushes are the only way to break down those hated DPM walls. If Kremlin splatted as easily as pre-0.6.6 Montana when caught flat-footed, or Sinop as easily as Nelson, neither would be an issue.

I’m still digging through armor models and drawings to determine how much the citadels can/should be enlarged, so I can’t give a concrete alternative, but other than nerfing Kremlin’s concealment and belt incline, the suggestions made here are counterproductive. There’s room to nerf along the lines of WG’s intended vision for these ships.

2†
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

A citadel raise was something I considered for a long time, but I've sort of realized that since Kremlin spends a lot of time bow in, which makes a raised citadel a sort of nonissue when you also consider Kremlin's firing arcs, another thing which I notably did not mention here.

I don’t see why everyone insists on nerfing Soviet BBs’ gimmick.

I think I'm not someone you can accuse of having a hateboner for Soviet stuff; this is why I acknowledged some of their strengths are too strong. The 60mm deck in particular is absolutely pants, whilst getting to keep the great gunnery that I very notably left alone.

2
TenguBladeNoots internally•

A citadel raise

Not quite a citadel raise, I was proposing that her lower armor belt also be part of the "T" in her citadel shape rather than said part stopping at just above the waterline. That more than doubles the height of the citadel, and the drag of the water (if I'm doing my math right) doesn't have as much resistance as the current 70mm citadel wall - with how pen works in WoWS, the main armor belt tends to rob shells of too much pen (raw subtraction of effective armor value) to pen that bulkhead. Similar deal with the rest, although I'm not certain about what the effects will be so I haven't finalized those. Widening the citadel to remove inner layers of armor means there's less plating to chew through, and if you want an example of how much difference that makes, look at how hard Soyuz is to citadel compared to Roma.

I think I'm not someone you can accuse of having a hateboner for Soviet stuff; this is why I acknowledged some of their strengths are too strong. The 60mm deck in particular is absolutely pants, whilst getting to keep the great gunnery that I very notably left alone.

I didn't mean to imply that you were biased. The question I was asking is why do we need another gunnery-focused line when the IJN already does ranged accuracy, pretty much every line besides the Germans aren't slouches at it either, we are probably going to get at least one split line for Britain with the same emphasis as the Japanese, and most BBs are only effective at the ranges the Soviets are anyways? Soviet BBs' distributed armor is a far more unique characteristic: among other naval powers, only Germany consistently adhered to that design feature, and their DCP isn't as good. The Soviets' ability to push into massive HE spam is far harder to replicate with any other nations' BBs than their gunnery characteristics, at least without abandoning what basis in reality WoWS has left. I'd rather see the guns nerfed to balance that durability out, and it's not like WG can't do that - they already have with Sovetsky Soyuz.

Downgrade Kremlin to the supercharged 406s that her version of Project 24 should have anyways, change Vladivostok and Lenin to use the same velocities as Sinop's Pattern 1915 guns instead of their current ones which require at a nonsensical (for WWI era at least) 19-ton working pressure, slash the muzzle velocity on Izmail and Pyotr Velikiy to the historical (and original) 732m/s, and drop the sigma on the other three ships by another 0.2. Combining that with the increases in citadel size would more than balance them: their potential in skilled hands would be cut, but not by a lot, while being a lot more punishing towards noobs owing to slower shells and taller cits would cause the averages would drop substantially.

1
fuxpr0•

I don't think you can nerf the survivability of the Kremlin without making it pretty worthless as a ship since there is nothing good about it other than its ability to take a hit, especially the concealment which it needs in order to get close enough to engage cruisers without getting burned down due to its bad gun performance at long range.

1
dragoneye098Add Tillman Battleships•

No plz don't nerf my kremlin, it's a seal clubber at t10

1
Dark_MagusClubbed Seal•

Sinop should have the B turret lowered to be non-superfiring. She's got more 406mm guns than the other silver T7 BBs and in a better layout to boot. The icebreaker bow makes her unlikely to be citadeled through the nose. This lets her always have at least 6 guns pointing at an enemy BB while well angled, when Nagato or Colorado could only fire 4 guns in a similar situation.

Giving her the historically correct to her design non-superfiring layout would create a major trade-off to this. Sinop would still be able to go bow-in as if she were a T8, but doing so leave only 3 guns firing. To get the 2nd turret to bear you'd have to take some risks. She still has fast turrets and the forward angles for the B turret wouldn't be terrible. But it would be a meaningful nerf without taking away the ship's identity.

1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

Perhaps. I didn’t consider that as an idea, mostly because I think it’s incredibly unlikely

1
TWINBLADE98Hamakaze Best Girl•

Does anyone notice the guns on Kremlin are ugly as hell??

1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

They're fine lmao

1
tikonderoga•

So, let's nerf everything and give them what exactly? Nothing, right?

You cut their national flavor and only things which left are giant citadels, inconsistent and short ranged guns and shitty rudder.

0†
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

Not what I did. I deliberately did not suggest nerfing several aspects of the ship; proof you didn't read.

The guns are great and the RST is some the best in class at most tiers.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Maniac-1•

GK

-1
tikonderoga•

Minus hydro and turtleback.

3
lol_bitcoin[TASH OP]•

I don't think they need that many nerfs. Seems excessive.

0
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

I do.

Clearly.

2
Nabbo33•

vlad has 45 sec 180° turret turning time

-1
Lord-PrometheusOPHSwMS Halland•

Cool.

2