Source
r/BarefootRunning•
GroovyGrove

I think something just clicked for my form. Last night I actually felt springy! Plus, some newbie training questions.

form

Quick background: I started running for the first time around 18 months ago. I quickly found barefoot running, and decided it was for me during my C25K program. I only ran for about 3 months before my twins were born, which gave me a year of very inconsistent runs (like 1-2 per month). I'm now trying to get back into regular running, with a goal race in mind (15k in March).

So I need to build back up, since I've virtually done nothing for a year since being a beginner. Last night, I was doing a easy run, 2-3mi. All is going as expected, with a little added knee pain from some poor posture decisions at work. But, I read a little more about form yesterday, and I was thinking about that during my run. One thing I never seen here that was mentioned in a video: when muscles should engage during your stride. I am not sure how to describe it accurately, but I kept my legs stiffer than usual. I'd say rather than let the muscles give as my foot lands, I kept them stiff so that my tendons could manage the force. Suddenly, each step felt easier, almost springy. I had to really force myself to keep slowing down because I just wanted to keep going, and faster didn't feel like effort - it felt natural.

So, I have a few form/training questions for you folks:

  1. Does this sound like something clicked and I've got it now? Or, did I just do something silly that isn't going to work for more than the 1km at the end of last night's run?
  2. I'm intending to do HR training to build up a base. I use my Galaxy Watch to monitor my HR via its Strava app. It was reporting 160 bpm while I was able to speak in full sentences and breathe through my nose. I think previously I've seen my Strava activity log show a much lower average HR than was possible for what I saw during the run, so I'm concerned it isn't reliable. Does this seem wrong? Should I trust the physical cues over the tech?
  3. I am thinking that I will include an easy run unshod weekly as part of my training. Does this seem like the right amount? I also have Xero Genesis huaraches, and I was thinking I'd probably do long runs and race in Prios.

I did my first successful unshod run almost 2 weeks ago, just under 2 miles before some aching made me decide to stop (not quite soon enough, actually). I felt great and actually found out that I ran faster. It's amazing: I knew all along that it would help, but I was being a big baby about going out there and doing it.

Posted Oct 16, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

1211
trevize1138unshod•

Does this sound like something clicked and I've got it now?

Definitely! The proof is entirely in the end result: you felt springy, it was easier and you wanted to go faster. I will say that your description of "kept my legs stiffer than usual" can sound "wrong" to me but don't let that dissuade you. On many practical, logical fronts running with "stiff" legs is wrong but it may be some kind of weird mental cue your mind/body connection needs to do things right. There are a lot of "wrong" cues like this that trick different people into the same, good result. So if someone tells you "your legs shouldn't be stiff" remember there's a difference between what's actually going on and the inner dialogue you use between mind/body to get a good result.

An example for me is some people say focusing on "bent knees" really helped them but it never worked for me. I just felt like I was running crouched and it was a slog. What worked for me was thinking about running "like you're barefoot on hot coals." Others also focus on lifting their feet before they touch the ground. That last one is beyond "wrong" it's physically impossible but for many it works to get them to move better.

It sounds like despite your focus on "stiff" legs it's set you up in a way that relaxes you properly to run better. In time you may figure out more particulars of why that is. For now just keep at it and congrats on getting over your fear of unshod. Training in totally bare feet is such a powerful tool for self-teaching solid athletic form. Just always remember that your feet will never get supernaturally tough and you'll never lose sensitivity. Let that extreme sensitivity guide your movements and don't be afraid to let your body react in a way that makes you look like some idiot tenderfoot ouch-ouch-ouching along. Those natrual, reflexive reactions look the way they do for solid, evolutionary reasons so trust those.

As for working in one easy barefoot run that's certainly good. Just keep in mind that it's not bad at all to do 100% of your runs easy unshod or otherwise. Speed training helps with speed if you're wanting a podium spot. If your goal is to finish a 15k you want endurance and that's achieved best through easy runs. Any idiot can push themselves too hard. The real discipline is to back off, take it easy and build a true aerobic base.

4
GroovyGroveOP•

Awesome. Thanks. I agree that having my legs stiffer sounds wrong, but I think it's relative to what I was doing before, which was overly cushioning my landings by bending my legs. I was trying to manually create a spring, rather than use the one I was built with. I think. Could be described as tension instead of stiffness. Plodding along now feels like it describes all my previous runs now.

I agree on the "bent knees" example - I tried it, and it feels kinda neat for a few paces, but it was definitely less efficient. Didn't work with what I was doing. I also tried the "hot coals" line, as I've seen it from you several times. It didn't work for me then, but I will keep that one in mind as I continue because it may become relevant to continued improvement.

I did not mean I'd be doing one easy run, which will be unshod. I meant I'd be doing one of my easy runs unshod. I am thinking that I'll do several weeks of only easy runs, as it feels like I need to build up aerobic ability. I was thinking if I get to where I can sustain <9:00/mi on long runs, maybe then I start thinking about tempo runs or intervals, depending on how long is left before the race (21 weeks currently). I really got into running for the recreational enjoyment, not for racing; the race is just because my SIL asked if I'd do it with her. I figured I could use a goal getting active again.

What are your thoughts on trusting the physical cues vs. technology? I'm having trouble completely discarding the watch I spent money on. Maybe I should learn to actually check my heart rate manually? Seems like breathing is a pretty standard guide that would be effective if I didn't have another option.

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trevize1138unshod•

Yeah, that makes sense if you were going too much in the direction of "relaxed" to where you're trying to run on a pair of wet noodles. Your description sounds similar to what happened when I tried "bent knees." The result must be far too much reliance on muscle strength for everything rather than allowing tendons to take over. It's very difficult at first to really understand what it's supposed to feel like when you're really leveraging that tendon elasticity and free return energy. That was really only evident to me after several miles when I realized I wasn't nearly as tired as I usually was and my legs still felt fresh all while still running at my usual pace or even faster.

As for that right mix of biofeedback and technology I did find a heart rate monitor very helpful in teaching me a lot about truly running easy and strategically slowing down or even walking for hills on longer runs. This year I went entirely the opposite direction with no devices just as an experiment but that ironically wouldn't work as well for me had I not learned all that from two seasons of running with a chest strap. The whole goal with the HRM is just to keep you from going too fast and it's simply more convenient than nose breathing or stopping to manually check your pulse.

Even with footwear vs shod there are some ways to use shoes and still get some good feedback, specifically on trails or any loose, variable surface like that. Grippy rubber tread on concrete can really encourage over-extending your limbs. Putting bare skin on concrete helps reduce that traction and adds an element of discomfort if you scuff your feet too much. But rubber tread on loose dirt or gravel is a very good 2nd option to unshod because you get biofeedback in the form of less traction. I'm a big believer that's why people think a rock-armored trail is "soft dirt." The trail isn't that much softer than concrete but the reduced traction encourages you to run softer.

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GroovyGroveOP•

Hmm... I basically have no hills, but I do have to train for them because there are bridges along the race course. My neighborhood has a 4 ft elevation change. As my runs get longer, there are a couple smaller bridges that I can run nearby.

I think I'll learn to manually check HR just to validate my watch's reading. It's inconvenient as a long term tool, but as a diagnostic tool, probably worthwhile. Developing instinct for it sounds even more convenient but like it will only come with time. Having read up a bit, it sounds like these wrist based sensors are just less accurate for some people. Until I can afford a chest strap, I'll do a few diagnostics and rely on breathing as an indicator if it still seems inaccurate.

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trevize1138unshod•

A common error with any HR monitoring is it can pick up your cadence sometimes. My chest strap does that for the first 2/3 of a mile or so until the sweat makes enough of a connection between the contacts and my skin. So for the first part of the run it looks like I'm at 180hr before suddenly dropping down to 90-100. I confirmed this by stopping immediately when it was reading 180 and checking my pulse manually.

I don't have very many hills where I am, either. But I've been able to learn a lot about hills with only a handfull of sessions at places I can drive to that do have hills. Going unshod on rough trails over hills is an excellent way to get the most out of those rare opportunities. Sure, having stronger legs always helps with hills but my hill climbing and descending has been helped the most by working on technique. Last summer we visited friends and family in the PNW and the handfull of days I had to run barefoot up-and-down the hilly, rough sidewalks of Seattle taught me a lot about efficient descents.

2
ThisIsSoIrrelevant•

What are your thoughts on trusting the physical cues vs. technology? I'm having trouble completely discarding the watch I spent money on. Maybe I should learn to actually check my heart rate manually? Seems like breathing is a pretty standard guide that would be effective if I didn't have another option.

If it's not a chest strap, then personally I wouldn't trust it. For resting heart rate, watches have been proven to be very accurate. When it comes to exercise though, they can get it VERY wrong. The ones that have chest straps are meant to still be pretty accurate though.

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GroovyGroveOP•

Thanks. I did a little reading about that. Mine seems to have been picking up my cadence, I think. I was going so slow that it being steady around 160-168 would make sense. I don't think I can justify the cost of a chest strap, so I think I'll do it the old fashioned way.

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guest8272•

I think I know where you mean by stiff legs. Your leg muscles can probably be pretty relaxed when you're overstriding and landing with a straight leg. I had the same feeling of wanting to go too fast because it felt so good. What I was surprised at was I still had so much more improving to do and my form would get even more efficient. Keep the high going and enjoy the added energy

3
trevize1138unshod•

Your leg muscles can probably be pretty relaxed when you're overstriding and landing with a straight leg.

That makes a lot of sense to me now based on what OP is describing. That whole over-stride with a slow cadence can certainly feel "relaxed" at first. It doesn't take very long before it catches up with you and now your legs are on fire and you're huffing like crazy.

I keep saying it all goes back to how good we all are at walking where an over-stride with a slow cadence is perfectly fine. We may have learned how to sprint all-out shortly after learning to walk as a toddler but most don't learn slow, controlled speeds until later in life. So many are fooled into thinking their "natural" gait is over-striding like that when in fact they're just too used to walking.

1
GoNorthYoungMan•

Congrats, that sounds sweet!

I would say you're on track in the right direction, but missing an important part - and that is control and reflexive tension through your full range of motion.

The better feeling when you're stiffening is a compensation, you are making tension where you body doesn't do it by itself. When you do that, you'll be limiting the full range of motion, so you can control it, and working within that smaller controlled space. That will feel good, that may turn into unconscious tension as you get stronger in that less-than-full range of motion.

But as a long term plan, its a kind of a fools gold. That's because your form can only be achieved within its current movement capacity. People "have" good form, they don't "do" good form. So the best way for good form is to create the capacity for it within each joint - thats the context your body can move in, so if you improve that, better form sort of arrives on its own.

I propose instead that you build strength and control through your full range of motion in a different type of training. Then over time as you are running, your body will naturally have that increased control through the full range of ankle, tibia and hip movement - that reflexive tension will operate through wider ranges of motion at each joint, so each joint will better dissipate force and provide more power.

You can't really do that while running, because your body knows its not safe to for example, go to the very edge of your ankle movement and try to apply a lot of force there.

The long term benefit is the feeling your describe, but in a passive sense, across all joints - and each joint having full freedom of motion and control means more injury mitigation - rather than creating that tension with some conscious stiffening.

The time for applying active control of your body is in separate training, where you're not moving or loaded with weight, and you can really control high levels of tension in individual movements. (much higher than during dynamic activity) As you do that more and more, the reflexive part of that tension will work for you in other more challenging activities.

If you're interested in this approach, consider looking into CARS = controlled articular rotations, as a first step. These are movements that improve strength and control through your existing joint movements. Because if you can't really control your ankle sitting on the floor, you won't suddenly be able to just because you're running - and that means some part of your body will be expected to deal with too much force to compensate.

There are a lot of variations, here's a couple to pique your interest, but let me know if any questions. Keep with it, sounds like you are in a great position.

Ankle/Tibia CARS https://vimeo.com/185735210

Hip CARS https://www.instagram.com/p/BxNAhNCB1oL/

The intent is to start with low tension, and you're just looking to do a couple minutes a day.

As for your other questions, consider doing zone 2 HR training, its the base layer of that work. Running probably won't work for that. Doing zone 2 HR training will let you use that improvement later when you're running - and is better than trying to test and express your HR limits while also improving those limits. They are separate things.

In terms of when to run? Whatever is comfortable, just remember it can be easy to overdo it so stay away from your maximum capacity for awhile until you get more familiar. I would say very short distances, more often, is way preferable to longer distances less often.

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_pupil_•

What is springy, how does it work, why, and inspiration to run on the roads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSIDRHUWlVo -- check out his other videos and you'll find skipping exercises to train the movements.

It's not for everyone, but highly enjoyable and successful if you're aiming at longer distances: https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/ -- again, for distance, the extramilest is a great resource, and his youtube channel has some really awesome & informative interviews with high level runners and relevant doctors.

  1. That's what your tendons are for, milk that sweet spot for running bliss :)

  2. Trust physical cues, and ensure your HR monitor is clean and working right as it's not unusual to have them +/- 10 or 20 bpm (dirt, sunscreen, etc). It's also not unusual to have a really elevated heart rate when coming back into things.

  3. Run as much unshod as makes sense for you, once a week is awesome ('specially in conjunction with minimalist footwear). If you're aiming for a 15 km race then spend most of your training time in whatever you'll be racing in.

Good luck and kick some ass!

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