Christianity and homosexuality

Self

Recently, as politics have gotten, for lack of a better word, spicy, I want to examine one specific belief of the evangelical conservative platform: their dislike and reluctance to accept the LGBTQ+ community. For years, this felt wrong to me, and so with this piece I hope to state my opinion on the matter. For the record, this piece is not in response to anyone nor attacking people in this sub. All I want to do is offer my perspective and encourage discussion. My secondary objective is selfish. I don’t think it’s healthy to ever accept anything blindly, and so forcing myself to think about this subject is an exercise of my faith as a Christian as well.

Having been a Christian since I was seven years old, I’ve heard a fair share of pastors talk about their interpretations of the Bible. However, sometimes passages from the Old Testament, understood as about before the coming of Jesus, used some sort of supernatural or outlandish elements in them. Some examples include the story of Lot and Sodom (Genesis 11-14, 19), Joshua’s trumpets destroying the walls of Jericho (Joshua 6), and Elisha and the two bears (2 Kings 2:23-25). The Old Testament is filled with these, and oftentimes atheists would call on some of these stories as a means to attack religious beliefs.

As a contemporary Christian with some common sense, the question is: how do we make sense of these stories? The Bible is the foundation of the Christian faith, so does that necessarily translate to a blind acceptance of the Word, no matter how outrageous the acts may be? For many pastors, the answer was simple – to interpret the Bible symbolically, considering the lessons that these stories are teaching and letting the details fall to the waist side. Similarly, we Christians are told to consider the events in a historical context and to reevaluate the choices of wording to better understand the intent of the passage.

I’d like to address the idea of taking things metaphorically. In this regard, I find Christians confusing. On one hand, some events, like the story of Creation, are taken for face value and interpreted as is, but on the other hand other narratives are looked at metaphorically. One famous story is Moses parting the Red Sea (Exodus 14 if you want to follow along). The Lord lead the Israelites out of Egypt, but they are stuck at the edge of the Red Sea. Moses, out of his faith in God, parts the Sea for the Israelites to cross. The idea here is that God has your back, and if you put your trust in him he will provide. The discussion of the actual parting of the freaking Red Sea usually doesn’t go very far, but the emphasis will nine out of ten times be on trusting the Lord. Thus, I find this whole cherry-picking what to take literally as kind of dumb. What exactly goes into choosing what to believe varies from person to person. However, I think that convenience, i.e. believing in something because it’s convenient, plays a big role in the choosing process for many people.

In a similar vein, some of these stories are taken in a historical context and explained that way. Using the same story, a popular belief is that Moses had knowledge about the tides of the Red Sea, and therefore led the Israelites across during low tide instead of parting the sea himself. I think that this method is of paramount importance because it enriches our Christians’ understanding of the Bible and what the Word of God is trying to tell us.

Why do I mention these methods of interpreting the Bible? I do so because from my perspective, many evangelical conservatives seem to drop these methods of interpretation when it comes to homosexuality. As Matthew Vine, author of God and the Gay Christian, notes on his website, there are six verses out the 31,000 in the Bible that explicitly mention homosexuality: “Three of them are neutral, and three are negative,” he writes. The verses talk about homosexuality as a visible sign of sin entering the world, where men become perversed and start lusting after other men. Homosexuality is seen as unnatural and evil. It seems that for many conservatives, the conversation stops there. The Bible says this, so that’s the end of it. However, this argument completely neglects the interpretation strategies developed to make sense of the Bible in the modern world.

One argument that sums this up pretty well is this: the Bible says that “Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death” (Exodus 21:17), but we clearly don’t follow that anymore. By today’s standards, that’s a terrible punishment. Since we don’t follow that rule (given to Moses by God himself, by the way), why should we follow what the Bible says about homosexuality to the ‘t’ as well? Other rules ordained by God include not eating shellfish or pork. As mentioned earlier, note that these are the same types of things that non-Christians often use as examples to attack or probe Christians. My response is that without context, these rules are as dumb as they say. However, from these rules we can understand the intention of such laws, and adjust accordingly to modern society.

One example of adjusting accordingly can be found in the following: “If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son… all the men of his town are to stone him to death” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). It is clear that such a behavior is not warranted today, but the intent is this: that the children have respect and not be rebellious towards their parents. In the same vein, the New Testament also commands filial piety many times (see Ephesians 6:1, for example). To conclude, we are to understand the idea of respecting our parents from that original verse, taking the verse for its intent rather than its literal value.

This is my belief and the hill I will die on: because many aspects of the Old Testament are not interpreted literally anymore for one reason or the other, I think what the Old Testament says about homosexuality should also be subject to the same standard.. Instead, like the aforementioned stories, homosexuality should be generalized and understood to symbolize perversion and evil behavior, and that homosexuality itself is not evil. Just like how cursing at your mother or father is no longer considered a crime punishable by death, homosexuality is not evil and does not deserve the disgust that so many Christians have for it.

In addition, I resonate very heavily with the belief that Christians show love to everyone. This was the root of my uneasiness with disliking gay people, as I’ve always been taught to be loving, kind, and understanding to everyone else. Suddenly switching to being hostile towards the LGBT community just felt wrong, and so I never did it. Though this debate about accepting homosexuality will no doubt continue, I think that in the meantime, is it such a terrible thing to show love to our non-heterosexual brothers, sisters, and everyone else in between?

Though I specifically mention that instances of being gay in the Old Testament should not be taken literally, how do I deal with homosexuality in the New Testament? Those doctrines tend to be taken more literally in the Christian paradigm. For this, we shall examine those on a case by case basis in their proper historical contexts. There are three specific passages in the New Testament that mention homosexuality: Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

Romans 1:26-27: Paul wrote to the Christians living in Rome at the time around the 1st century AD. Sexuality in Rome was very much not constricted to homosexual and heterosexual. Rather, sexual relationships were more a status symbol than anything else. Any man who would submit and be penetrated was considered inferior, feminine, and would be lower in status. Thus, status in Rome was not just about powerful men, but the ones who would not submit sexually to other men. Thus, homosexual relationships, while not the norm, were not considered unnatural during this time in Rome. In addition, the Romans were persecuting the Christians, so Christian life was very tough and discouraging at this time. Paul is writing to them to encourage them and keep up their faith. In the process, he denounces homosexual relations with other men. The way I see it, in condemning homosexual behavior, Paul is indirectly attacking the Romans, who are making Christians’ lives miserable. Here, homosexuality really is just a vehicle to denounce the Romans, and being gay isn’t necessarily bad.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Similar to Paul with the Christians in Rome, he also visited and wrote epistles to the church of Corinth. Corinth was a thriving city, due to it being a commercial center. Due to this, the city had a large population and grew rampant with sin too. We see in verse nine that all these people will not inherit the kingdom of God: idolaters, adulterers, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, and swindlers. This may be a stretch, but I think he’s saying that evildoers will not go to heaven. Because the default at the time was to consider homosexuality as evil, Paul lumped gay people in with everyone else he thought were evil. Therefore, I see this list as groups of people that Christians at the time thought were evil and not a comprehensive list, nor should we take all of these terms 100% literally. The idea is that people who sin and don’t accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven. Gay people, because they were considered evil at the time, happened to make it into the list.

1 Timothy 1:9-10: Paul is writing to Timothy, someone who he considers his mentee. In this passage, Paul is warning Timothy about those that teach the law but do so not out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith in God. “We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels,...” (1 Timothy 1:9), and he goes on to list all these people that are looked down upon by SOCIETY. Similar to the case in 1 Corinthians, being gay is only mentioned because it is seen by society at the time as something evil. It is impossible to isolate narrative from its context, because doing so detracts from its original intended meaning. Though these epistles are now a part of the Bible, they no doubt contain influences from society at the time - one that shuns homosexuality. Thus, using this as a basis to reject gay people is the equivalent of following ancient laws out of context.

Much of the New Testament was written by Paul, someone who would’ve been well versed in the Old Testament. Therefore, he would’ve no doubt read about God’s thoughts on homosexual people and been influenced by that viewpoint. In fact, any Christian of the time with access to the Septuagint would’ve been influenced by the Old Testament, so we can’t say that these epistles and Christian beliefs of the time can be separated from society. We have to interpret everything as such too. I know that in saying this it may seem that I am denying the validity of Paul’s words. In fact, I am doing the opposite. In considering the contexts in which he writes his letters, I am seeking to understand his intentions in a timeless sense, free from the chains of society.

Finally, though I started by talking about conservatives rejecting the LGBTQ+ community, and then proceeded to only address homosexuality, I’d like to apologize by saying that I’m not familiar with instances in the Bible dealing with the full spectrum of genders. However, I feel my arguments apply to all other identities as well. After all, loving everyone is loving EVERYONE, and so I feel no problem extending my arguments to apply to everyone as well. I’d like to thank anyone who took the time to read this, as I do feel like I’ve rambled a bit.

Posted Nov 7, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

044
Brewschmidty7Lutheran (LCMS)•

If we as Christians believe that God is all powerful, why should we not take the miracles in the O.T seriously?

6
ptrcklOP•

I think this just comes down to what we choose to believe. One thing I did not address is the fact that the miracles of God don't have to be comprehended by man, and so we technically shouldn't meddle in justifying and choosing which miracles to believe because doing so would be a fruitless effort. I hope you recognize that I'm still very conflicted on the issue, but I appreciate your input.

3
nebra089•

I am sure those "Christians" have no problem watching lesbian porn, they're just typical religious hypocrites

5
ptrcklOP•

I just want to examine this "religious hypocrisy" cause it's definitely not just the alt-right that believe in this. In my experience literally everyone was like anti-lgbtq

2
kolembo•

Extensive.

Thank you.

3
CheezitCheeve•

My personal views are that homosexuality is a sin. To the Roman one, if Homosexuality was discouraged in Rome then why would Paul double down? To Corinthians, I believe Paul wasn't just lumping Homosexuality in with other sins. Paul was outlining sins so to outline that one would be like saying Do's and Don't's. However, I agree we need to be more accepting of Homosexuality because it is now a problem. The church needs to do a better job of being accepting. We should allow people who have been homosexual and teach them self-denial similar to boys/girls and lusting/porn. I think we are rose to the future and that we should shed of our former selves and Homosexuality is one that I believe we need to shed off. That's just my view. I appreciate the dissection of scripture as it is a problem that I see with cherry picking the bible. You had very good thoughts on this difficult topic. God bless.

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mega_trex•

Paul used a made up word that was mistranslated, if you look at the original word it makes no sense that he would be referring to LGBT+ people.

First century Greek had no word that was the equivalent of our word homosexual. (Even English had no such word until the 19th century.) They did, however, have commonly used and ubiquitously understood phrases to refer to sexual contact between persons of the same sex. But none of those phrases are found in the New Testament. Paul wrote his epistles to Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, Ephesians, etc., but always in Greek, a language they all understood. And it goes without saying that he wanted his readers to understand what he was saying. So why, then, if he intended to refer to men who have sex with men, would he create a new word, give it ambiguous gender, fail to use a definite article (which would have indicated gender), and fail to define it, when there were already commonly understood expressions to indicate that? It makes no sense.

The αι ending (αις in the dative case used in 1 Tim) can be masculine OR feminine. If Paul had used a singular form, or had used a definite article, it would have told us if the word were masculine or feminine. But if, despite lack of need, he had decided to create a new word to refer to homosexual men, he could have made that abundantly clear by giving the word a different ending.

7
DarthAsterix•

The word literally means man-bedders and is a reference to Leviticus 20:13 .

2
mega_trex•

What's your source for that translation? Man bedders with no gender can refer to women having premarital sex.

5
DarthAsterix•

Arseno means man and koitai means bed. That's where we get the word coitous from.

2
enenamas•

then why would Paul double down?

Why would he go through the trouble of doubling down and not bother to explain why such an act is a sin in the first place?

We can figure out why a lot of things are sins. Murder, deceiving, etc. Those things harm other people. By gay sex? Why would God be bothered by gay sex?

If they're gonna forbid something that affects so many people, they should at least bother to explain why.

4
CheezitCheeve•

From what I gathered through the Bible, God intended male and female to be married and have sex. He didn't intend for gay and lesbian marriage. When he created the first humans, he used Adam and Eve. When he wanted to show Isreal how bad they were, he used Hosea and a female prostitute. That's what I've seen, anyway. God bless.

1
enenamas•

God intended male and female to be married and have sex.

But then celibacy would be wrong

1
CheezitCheeve•

Not necessarily because Paul and other NT writers also abstained.

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ptrcklOP•

Thanks and God blessyou too. I think where you differ from me is just which parts of scripture we choose to believe word for word, but we share similar thoughts about the church needing to do a better job about handling the LGBTQ community. As for the portion on Rome, my argument is that because Romans had such a relaxed definition of heterosexual and homosexual relationships, and that homosexuality was accepted, Paul denouncing homosexuality was an indirect attack at Roman culture.

3
mega_trex•

I find it weird that some christians can talk about how the Bible is the infallible word of God and then in the same breath talk about mistranslations. If you're willing to admit there's mistranslations it's not that far from accepting the written word could have been manipulated by sinful humans throughout the years.

Jesus taught empathy above all even in the face of the law in the old testament.

2
ptrcklOP•

I'm not arguing that the Bible is full of mid translations. Rather, I say to consider the verses with their proper context in an attempt to understand how those verses may apply to us right now. Pastors already do this. I'm just doing the same but to verses that talk about homosexuality.

3
[deleted]•

Actually it’s impossible for the Bible to be infallible or inerrant.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
[deleted]•

What? I have no idea what you are trying to say and you don’t get what I am saying. I said the Bible CAN’T be infallible or inerrant.

2
SeekingTheWay19•

Oops, sorry, I misread you. I'll delete, because you're right my comment doesn't make sense in this context.

2
NinaCulottaChristian, bi(sexual, cyclist, lingual) :latin-cross:•

I say this all the time (I know, I know, new account - it's my seventh), so what the heck:

The English-language definition of homosexuality is 'the state of experiencing sexual attraction to members of the same sex'. Not a sin. Not actually mentioned, let alone named as a sin, in Scripture, because it wasn't a concept that existed. This is the definition that is actually used in conversation outside (and occasionally inside) conservative Christian circles.

The 'Christianese' definition, so far as I can tell, is 'the act of having sex with members of the same sex'. Yes a sin. Mentioned a few times. This is not a definition used outside of conservative Christianity.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ: when you are trying to say 'having gay sex is a sin, stop doing it and you're good', LGBT+ people hear 'the way you are, the way you cannot consciously or deliberately change being, the way you did not choose to be, is a sin, you can't be a Christian until you're straight'. Could we all please be more conscious of how what we say will be understood outside the walls of the church?

2
ptrcklOP•

Interesting. So your idea is to differentiate between attraction and the act of having sex with members of the same sex, and that when people inside and outside conservative Christian circles discuss homosexuality, they're discussing different things?

I think when talking about homosexuality, it's very hard to say "even though your thoughts aren't necessarily a sin, the actual act is." It's extremely hard for a gay man to not eventually have sex with other men. It would be as hard as telling straight men not to have sex with women. I suppose at that point the argument becomes one of repressing lustful thoughts to follow the Lord, but that's off-topic here.

Regardless, I agree with you that telling people they're a sin because of something they're born with is a terrible thing to do. I think we Christians need to differentiate more between the 'Christianese' and 'English' definition when talking about this in the future. Thank you for your insight.

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NinaCulottaChristian, bi(sexual, cyclist, lingual) :latin-cross:•

The attraction isn't sinful, isn't something people can change, and isn't something God often chooses to change. Telling people they're going to hell for that is a) wrong and b) incredibly cruel. The act (imo, though again, I can understand where the other crowd are coming from) is sinful, and is something people can choose to do or not do.

You're right, it is extremely hard, and I'm glad you can recognize that - a lot of Christians just shrug and go 'it's no different to telling a straight man to stay celibate until marriage'.

Can I direct you to Spiritual Friendship, a blog run by a collective of gay and lesbian Christians who have all chosen either celibacy or mixed-orientation marriage? With the decades of theological training between them, they tend to phrase things rather better than I can!

2
AppleFritterFella•

Take up your cross and follow Him, pure and simple. You aren't a gay Christian any more than I'm a murdering Christian. You are a Christian that suffers temptation in a particular area (that you've hopefully been working on isolating). Mistakes will be made, and grace will follow. But keep on fighting. Don't make your desire your God.

Is it popular? No. Is it easy? No. Is it right? Yep.

2
palaeologosChristian (Celtic Cross)•

"Being gay" and "homosexuality" are not condemned in the Bible. Sodomy is, however.

2
ChristianTgirl420•

First thing I see on the sub is an lgbt thread..

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SalanmanderLGBT Ally•

Ah, I see you came here on a day. Sometime within 6 hours of either noon or midnight.

4
jmj1970Lutheran•

Personally, I like this approach.

How I Wish the Homosexuality Debate Would Go

Just once, I’d like to see a TV interview go more like this:

Host: You are a Christian pastor, and you say you believe the Bible, which means you are supposed to love all people.

Pastor: That’s right.

Host: But it appears to me that you and your church take a rather unloving position when it comes to gay people. Are homosexuals welcome to come to your church?

Pastor: Of course. We believe that the gospel is a message relevant for every person on the planet, and we want everyone to hear the gospel and find salvation in Jesus Christ. So at our church, our arms are outstretched to people from every background, every race, every ethnicity and culture. We’re a place for all kinds of sinners and people with all kinds of problems.

Host: But you said there, “We’re a place for sinners.” So you do believe that homosexuality is sinful, right?

Pastor: Yes, I do.

Host: So how do you reconcile the command to love all people with a position on homosexuality that some would say is radically intolerant?

Pastor: (smiling) If you think my position on homosexuality is radical, just wait until you hear what else I believe! I believe that a teenage guy and girl who have sex in the backseat of a pick-up are sinning. The unmarried heterosexual couple living down the street from me is sinning. In fact, any sexual activity that takes place outside of the marriage covenant between a husband and wife is sinful. What’s more, Jesus takes this sexual ethic a step further and goes to the heart of the matter. That means that any time I even lust after someone else, I am sinning. Jesus’ radical view of sexuality shows all of us up as sexual sinners, and that’s why He came to die. Jesus died to save lustful, homo- and heterosexual sinners and transform our hearts and minds and behavior. Because He died for me, I owe Him my all. And as a follower of Jesus, I’m bound to what He says about sex and morality.

Host: But Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality outright, did He?

Pastor: He didn’t have to. He went to the heart issue and intensified the commands against immoral behavior in the Old Testament. So Jesus doesn’t just condemn adultery, for example, as does one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus condemns even the lust that leads to adultery, all with the purpose of offering us transformed hearts that begin beating in step with His radical demands.

Host: You say he condemned adultery, but he chose not to condemn the woman caught in adultery.

Pastor: That’s right, but He did tell her to “go and sin no more.”

Host: But who are you to condemn someone who doesn’t line up with your personal beliefs about sexuality?

Pastor: Who am I? No one. It’s not all that important what I think about these things. This conversation about homosexuality isn’t really about my personal beliefs. They’re about Jesus and what He says. I have no right to condemn or judge the world. That right belongs to Jesus. My hope is to follow Him faithfully. That means that whatever He says in regard to sexual practices is what I believe to be true, loving, and ultimately best for human flourishing – even when it seems out of step with the whims of contemporary culture.

Host: But you are judging. You are telling all the gay people watching this broadcast that they are sinners.

Pastor: I’m not singling out gay people. I’m pointing to Jesus as the answer to all sexual sinfulness.

Host: But you are referring to gay people. Why are you so focused on homosexuality?

Pastor: (smiling) With all due respect, you are the one who brought up this subject.

Host: Are you saying that you can’t be gay and Christian?

Pastor: No. I’m saying that you can’t be a genuine Christian without repentance. Everyone – including me – is guilty of sin, but Christianity hinges on repentance. We agree with God about our sin, and we turn from it and turn toward Jesus. When it comes to Christianity, this debate is not about homosexuality versus other sins. It’s about whether or not repentance is integral to the Christian life.

Host: But do you see why a homosexual watching this might think you are attacking them personally? You’re saying that something is wrong with them.

Pastor: I think Jesus’ teaching on sexuality shows us that there is something wrong with all of us – something that can only be fixed by what Jesus did for us on the cross and in His resurrection. That said, I understand why people might think I am attacking them personally. Most people with same-sex desires believe they were born with these tendencies. That’s why they often see their attraction as going to the very core of who they are, and so they identify themselves with the “gay” label. So whenever someone questions their behavior or desires, they take it as an attack on the very core of their being. That’s usually not the intent of the person who disagrees with homosexual behavior. But that’s the way it is perceived. I understand that.

Host: If it’s true that a person is born with one sexual orientation or another, then how can it possibly be loving to condemn one person’s orientation?

Pastor: Well, we really don’t know for certain about sexual attraction being innate and set from birth. All we have is the testimony of people who say that they’ve experienced same-sex desires since childhood. Christianity teaches that all people are born with a bent toward sin. It’s possible that some people will have a propensity toward alcohol abuse or angry outbursts, while others may have a propensity toward other sins. Regardless, Christians believe people are more than their sexual urges. We believe that human dignity is diminished whenever we define ourselves by sexual urges and behaviors. Consider this: married men are sometimes attracted to multiple women who are not their wives. Does this mean they should self-identify as polygamists? Not at all. And surely you wouldn’t consider it hateful for Christians to encourage married men not to act on their desires in an effort to remain faithful to their spouses. It is the Christian way, after all.

Host: No, but it still seems like you are telling people not to be true to who they are.

Pastor: It only seems that way because you believe sexual desire reflects the core of one’s identity. It would help if you and others who agree with you would understand that in your putting pressure on me to accept homosexual behavior as normal and virtuous, you are going to the very core of my identity as a follower of Jesus. The label most important to me is “Christian.” My identity – in Christ – is central to who I am. So I could say the same thing and call you intolerant, bigoted, and hateful for trying to change a conviction that goes to the core of who I am as a Christian. I don’t say that because I don’t believe that’s your intention. But neither should you think it’s my intention to attack a homosexual person or cause them harm merely because I disagree.

Host: But the problem is, your position fosters hate and encourages bullying.

Pastor: I recognize that some people have mistreated gays and lesbians in the past. It’s a shame that anyone anywhere would mock, taunt, or bully another human being made in God’s image. That said, I think we need to make one thing clear in regard to civil discourse: To differ is not to hate. I hope we can still have a real conversation in this country about different points of view without casting one another in the worst possible light. The idea that disagreeing with homosexual behavior necessarily results in harm to gay people is designed to shut down conversation and immediately rule one point of view (in this case, the Christian one) out of bounds. As a Christian, I am to love my neighbor and seek his good, even when I don’t see eye to eye with my neighbor. Furthermore, the picture of Christ on the cross dying for His enemies necessarily affects the way I think about this and other issues.

1
sv6fiddy•

Well done

2
zeroninjas•

When one side of your "discussion" is given 10 times the space to explain him/herself, you may want to ask yourself if you might be swinging at a straw man.

Your pastor reduces gay people like me to a pile of "sexual urges" and discounts the strength of our relationships. It makes the assumption that by desiring to have relationships, to bond with another person and spend our lives with them in almost the exact fashion of straight couples, we are simply giving in to our urges and wallowing in sin.

There are pastors doing exactly what you say above, as gay people are still ridiculed, shunned, and attacked across the US...And we're one of the better places in the world to be gay. The message of smiling preachers like the one in your example still comes through crystal clear to those who are angry and afraid and looking for a scapegoat: gay people who choose to be in relationships with each other are immoral, undisciplined people who are in a state of constant sin, no better than child abusers and murderers. They are unrepentant and by trying to make their relationship acceptable legally, they are just trying to drag good Christians down into immorality with them.

The message is clear...The love to be shown to gay people is the same love you are supposed to show to any enemy.

2
jmj1970Lutheran•

The message is clear and that is exactly what the pastor explains well.

1
DarthAsterix•

Confusion about the Law again. Every law in the Old Testament is meant to be forever... For Jews. The reason we eat pork and shellfish is because the Gentiles weren't required to keep this commandment by the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Acts 15 also says that Gentiles are to abstain from sexual immorality, a reference to Leviticus 18. Paul knows this so has no problem condemning homosexual acts.

You seem to have a hard time accepting that miracles occur. And if this is a hill to die on, might I suggest atheism for you.

0†
ptrcklOP•

If Jews are meant to follow Old Testament Laws to the letter, then are Jewish children being stoned to death for disobeying their parents these days? I find it hard to believe that there are people living in today's world, Jew or not, that still follow every commandment and law exactly how it is written.

In addition, Acts 15:20 says to abstain from the meat of strangled animals and blood. Frankly, I don't ever see non-Jew Christians ever asking if certain meat is from a strangled animal. I think that once again that verse needs to be reconsidered in its context (i.e. the prophets meeting in Antioch after Jesus' ascent to heaven).

Finally, I know what I believe, and I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior like you (hopefully). To suggest atheism is an insult to my faith. Have a nice day.

5
DarthAsterix•

I'm not responsible for what the Jews do or don't do. But for the longest time, there was no state of Judea to carry out executions. And even when there was, they were very rare.

As for food, all the animals are slaughtered in the same way. They are rendered unconscious, turned upside down and their throat is slit so the blood pours out.

Anyone who says gay sex is not a sin has fallen from the faith. You don't have a saving faith. I repeat, anyone who says gay sex is not a sin fallen from the faith. You would be more innocent as an atheist.

1
ptrcklOP•

Yes, I understand that you're not responsible for what Jews do or don't do. At the same time you're not responsible for what homosexual people do or don't do. But you have a say in the latter. By condemning homosexual people for their acts because they break an Old Testament law, you indirectly claim that you can condemn those who don't stone their disobedient children.

Also, I advise you leave personal comments out of discussions in the future. You telling me that being atheist is better (for whom?) accomplishes nothing in this discussion.

2
DarthAsterix•

1 Cor. 5:9-13. If you want people to be free to have gay sex, then that would be atheism, and I couldn't judge. But no, you want us to believe that God approves of that for Christians. This is why my judgement is justified.

2
Intrepid-CorsairEvangelical•

I believe homosexuality is an abomination and a sin in God’s eyes but I don’t believe we should hate and shun people who actively pursue it any more than we should hate or shun someone for any sin. We are called to love all people and preach the good news of the gospel. If they want to lay down their sins and follow the Lord thereby carrying His much lighter burden then I will rejoice in that. What I do despise is someone who claims Christianity while also embracing sin. We are a new creation when we accept Jesus and we are to repent of our sins and learn to walk in freedom instead of bondage. A person who loves sin cannot love God and does damage to the faith with their hypocrisy.

A Christians greatest testimony is a changed life and a departure from all things evil and despised by God. How can a person show others by word and action that they are truly saved and that there is power in God’s grace if they continue to do what is despicable and immoral in God’s sight?

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mega_trex•

Shrimp is also an abomination in God's eye so it's not like he has high standards for what is and isn't an abomination.

3
Intrepid-CorsairEvangelical•

God created shrimp; man created homosexuality. Evil has always taken the purity of Gods creation and corrupted it.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Intrepid-CorsairEvangelical•

Denial is a powerful thing.

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ptrcklOP•

I think you phrased this well, and it might be the resolution to my conflicts. As I've said, I don't like hating other people, regardless of their identity, and so this whole time I've been trying to justify homosexuality itself. It may be that it is the sin, but I am to love the person, not their actions. Thank you for your insight.

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[deleted]•

Homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, it is hard to hear but it is the truth. Historically this is how it has been viewed by the church for 2000 years. You should always interpret scripture in light of the historical church. Check out Dr. Jeannie Constantinou's podcasts Search the Scriptures. What you see nowadays are people interpreting scripture to suit themselves and to justify their beliefs.

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ptrcklOP•

After reading some other comments, especially the one by u/Intrepid-Corsair, I think that I'm confusing denouncing homosexuality and denouncing the people who are. I still stand by the belief that we as Christians should love them, but I am now not so sure about whether homosexuality is not a sin anymore.

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