Source
r/GCdebatesQT•
LoveSloane

I did the thing. I made the “Compromise” post. (And this is it)

It seems like a lot of the posts lately have ended up with talks about compromising or finding a way to work together. And it’s made me wonder: why?

ALL: What reasons are there for women to compromise with transwomen, or vice versa?

QT: What/how do transwomen contribute to womanhood?

How would women benefit from compromising our rights to (consciously, not unknowingly or unwillingly) have them include transwomen?

If there is no benefit for females, why should women do so anyway?

GC: is there any way that you are willing to compromise?

If so, what ways and why?

If not, why not?

ALL: what would you need from the other to be willing to compromise?

What would you be willing to give up to compromise?

I’m afraid of how this will go, lol. I’m not trying to cause any drama, it’s just becoming increasingly apparent to me that a large part of the problem seems to be that the needs and wants of transwomen tend to conflict with the rights and needs of females, and the needs and rights of females conflict with the needs and wants of transwomen.

Posted Dec 15, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

33168
Mother-of-Rats•

I used to compromise back in the day.

Transwomen want to use "she/her" pronouns? Of course, what's the harm?

Transwomen just want to pee/change in women's washrooms/locker rooms? Well...yes, of course, we should support them.

Transwomen want to use female DV/rape shelters? Um...well, I'm not really sure that's the best idea but I'm sure allowances can be made.....

The problem is that it's death by a thousand paper cuts. You give an inch, they take a mile.

It used to be that transwomen would try to fit in and be unobtrusive and use women's facilities and, even if they raised a few eye brows, they didn't create trouble so women just went with it.

Now we have transwomen DEMANDING to be allowed into any and all women's facilities from bathrooms to rape shelters to prisons.

We can't talk about uterine cancer, PCOS, abortion or any other women's health issues without being "inclusive" of transwomen. It's "triggering" for them to hear about vaginas and periods so we're not allowed to discuss our own bodies.

We no longer use "she/her" pronouns to be kind. We MUST use them or we get death and rape threats, lose our jobs and are ostracized from society as hateful bigots.

Transwomen are no longer "transwomen", no, they're "real women", "actual women", "literally female", "mothers, sisters, daughters".....

Here's the thing. We've done the Neville Chamberlain thing and it has resulted in us being royally fucked over.

Right now we can't afford to compromise, we've had our rights annihilated by trans activists.

We can talk about compromising after we're able to have our own spaces, keep our own, objectively based definition of woman, talk about our own bodies and problems and use whatever language we want to describe our own reality.

Once we've got our basic human rights as women back, we can talk about compromise. At the moment we're in the proverbial tiger's mouth and the tiger is asking us to slather ourselves in ketchup to make us taste better.

No fucking thank you.

53
LoveSloaneOPI finally learned how to flair! flairy flair•

I read this at just the right time. I feel like the more I try to understand and the more I want to find a reason to soften my opinion- I have another ridiculously frustrating encounter, and I just...

This is exactly how I feel. But I feel like I can’t allow myself to feel this way. And I hate that I feel like I’m not supposed to agree so deeply with what you wrote. Not because you’re wrong, but because you’re right and I feel like I was manipulated or conditioned into thinking that feeling this way is wrong.

I was really ready to give them everything they said they needed. but it would never have been enough. It’s never going to be enough. Because we can’t give them the one thing we have that they want most. And I feel like they punish us for that. And it’s not even our fault.

They could literally take the word “woman” or even the word “female” from us, and we have to find a new word, and they’d just want that word too.

There’s no middle ground because we can’t understand each other in a real way. And that’s the irony.

38
gayorles57•

Don't beat yourself up! I, and many other GC women, went through the same exact, painful process of realization that nothing will ever be enough for transactivists (note: I'm NOT referring to ALL trans people. my comments here are about the activists and AGPs). And it was VERY difficult for me to come to terms with the fact that my beliefs were beginning to align with so-called "T3RF" ideas–but my beliefs are not thoughts I can change just because I want to; I need to be convinced that I'm wrong before I'm able to alter my beliefs. And so far, radfems have been the most convincing by a long-shot. So far, no TRA has even come close to altering my views on gender, sexed socialization, & feminism. In fact, increased exposure/more interactions with trans people both IRL and on this sub over the past year have actually made me MORE gender critical, as I realize that "true transsexuals" have truly become the minority under the gigantic, fetishist-inclusive "trans umbrella."

This part of your post in particular really resonated with me, mainly the part about "allowing" yourself to feel/believe things:

This is exactly how I feel. But I feel like I can’t allow myself to feel this way. And I hate that I feel like I’m not supposed to agree so deeply with what you wrote. Not because you’re wrong, but because you’re right and I feel like I was manipulated or conditioned into thinking that feeling this way is wrong.

20
adungititever thinked how mens feel ?•

Same here. The more I give TRAs the benefit of a doubt and let them explain themselves, the more they convince me how absolutely nonsensical and bigoted this whole thing is. It's clear that none of them have given their brainwashing any thought. At the core of it all is the basic premise that transwomen's lives are far more important than women's lives, and all the sexism and straight up danger that women are placed in is justified on those grounds.

16
ActualWendy•

Yes, it's shocking to suddenly be on the wrong side after a lifetime of openness, compromise, and empathy. And to realize that these allies and sisters don't give a shit about you and support violent and dehumanizing language about you. Thanks for trying.

19
gayorles57•

The problem is that it's death by a thousand paper cuts. You give an inch, they take a mile.

Yes. Your story is very similar to mine.

We can talk about compromising after we're able to have our own spaces, keep our own, objectively based definition of woman, talk about our own bodies and problems and use whatever language we want to describe our own reality.

Once we've got our basic human rights as women back, we can talk about compromise.

I agree with this 100%!!! How can we even talk about "compromise" when our autonomy as women has been so compromised/totally annihilated– to the point where women usually aren't even allowed to participate in decision-making about "compromising" on things that trans natal males want for themselves? Instead, we just get told that the trans natal males are GOING to get what they want (in virtually all cases where their wants clash with women's rights/wants/needs), regardless of what women want. We are told that this is what is going to happen to us & our spaces. We are dictated to, not collaborated with. No offense intended to u/LoveSloane because I know you're just trying to invite a productive discussion with this thread– but I do think it's absurd to ask GC what we think about "compromising" with transwomen, when in reality, we're really in no position to "negotiate" with our dictators even if we wanted to. As u/Mother-of-Rats put it:

At the moment we're in the proverbial tiger's mouth and the tiger is asking us to slather ourselves in ketchup to make us taste better.

26
jupiterssunday•

What is up for compromise?

Nothing. The safety of women is not something that can be bargained or treated as acceptable collateral damage.

The problem seems to be violence from men against transwomen. It’s very telling that to so many any solution to that involves women at all.

42
gayorles57•

The problem seems to be violence from men against transwomen. It’s very telling that to so many any solution to that involves women at all.

This is my main thought on this matter.

25
SqueakyBall•

And when natal women won't agree with transwomen's demands, the transwomen threaten the natal women with the very same kinds of violence they say they fear from from natal men.

All the hormones in the world can't hide male socialization, entitlement and misogyny.

8
jupiterssunday•

Yes!

Women are expected to perform the labor to keep these males safe from other males, and met with aggression and disdain for daring to say ‘I have more pressing concerns than someone else’s emotional wellbeing’

3
DistantGlimmer•

​

Male people should ideally be the ones to compromise on most if not all issues here. Women should not be forced to compromise sex based rights. Transwomen could probably get the acceptance and support of most women critical of their movement if they accept that they are male and respect sex-based rights.

I think any compromise would probably start from the idea that transwomen are so GNC as males that they belong in a third category. This would eliminate the threat to sex-based rights while still allowing transwomen to argue for certain specific rights they feel they need (something similar could be also worked out for transmen although they aren't the focus of the problem here as I see it.). Unfortunately, while some of the more reasonable transmedicalists seem somewhat amenable to something like this I think QT is fully committed to TWAW and I think that is non-negotiable.

​

I'm really not optimistic that a compromise can be reached if I'm being honest....

35
gayorles57•

I think any compromise would probably start from the idea that transwomen are so GNC as males that they belong in a third category. This would eliminate the threat to sex-based rights while still allowing transwomen to argue for certain specific rights they feel they need

Agree. And I would 100% support transwomen in arguing for these rights in this context, with no hesitation whatsoever.

14
SqueakyBall•

I think any compromise would probably start from the idea that transwomen are so GNC as males that they belong in a third category.

Great suggestion, thought I agree it's probably too late for this too work now.

6
DistantGlimmer•

I agree with this assessment unfortunately.

4
just_lesbian_thingshorrible human being•

I'm not compromising on my rights. I maintain that I'm not responsible for treating gender dysphoria nor male violence.

35
ascreamingbirdPro-Trans•

"I maintain that I'm not responsible for treating depression" could also be said. Still kind of a bad move to set back someone who is trying to help their distress.

-2
flapyourwings•

Not engaging with or enabling someone's mental illness is not "setting them back".

18
SqueakyBall•

So well said. (I've been dealing with my severely depressed, anxious, phobic and somewhat reality-challenged sister this past week. She's my favorite family member but she's getting worse, won't get help and I can't engage like this anymore.)

5
ascreamingbirdPro-Trans•

By misgendering someone you are furthering their gender dysphoria. It's like intentionally making someone with an anxiety disorder anxious.

1
flapyourwings•

I'm not responsible for the fact that someone is so mentally ill that using a fucking pronoun will damage them. This is an appeal to female socialization and they need to save their whinging for their therapist, not total strangers who aren't being paid to pander to their unverifiable self-concept.

3
CallaAETHIOPICASailBoule’s #1 fan•

I’m not compromising. Have before in the past when I was libfem but apparently using preferred pronouns, new chosen name, being supportive of basic human rights, and just basic decency isn’t enough. I’m not going to make myself uncomfortable or endanger/threaten the lives of other women and girls because of dysphoric males. I’m sorry they’re dysphoric but I’m not budging. A small percentage of dysphoric males do not mean more to me than the many women and girls that need and deserve safety, privacy, respect, and decency. Besides that what do they give? They take and they take and women are just expected to deal with it because of our socialization. We are expected to be tolerant and supportive even if it endangers is and makes us uncomfortable. I spent most, if not all of my life pandering to men and it got me absolutely nowhere. Even if I was willing to compromise again it wouldn’t be enough. It will never be enough. Not giving up our words, our spaces, nothing.

They not only need but deserve their own spaces but that is on them. I will never support gender based protections over sex based. Ever. I will never place dysphoric males comfort over the safety needs of women and girls. I will never fight against their basic human rights but I will never fight along side them or be supportive in any way. I’m saving my time, energy, money, etc for women and girls and other issues I care about, and I don’t really care who that offends anymore.

34
gayorles57•

Besides that what do they give? They take and they take and women are just expected to deal with it because of our socialization. We are expected to be tolerant and supportive even if it endangers is and makes us uncomfortable. I spent most, if not all of my life pandering to men and it got me absolutely nowhere. Even if I was willing to compromise again it wouldn’t be enough. It will never be enough. Not giving up our words, our spaces, nothing.

I feel very similarly. And I'd actually really like an answer to the question of yours that I bolded, from QT and/or transwomen–what have MtFs contributed to feminism/the fight for women's liberation? For all their talk about how women/the world in general isn't doing enough to support and uplift transwomen, what have MtFs done to raise and uplift women? Because sadly, all I've seen from y'all is selfishness, i.e. demanding that feminism prioritize the needs of MtFs over the needs of natal women/insisting that feminists focus much of their efforts and funding on issues that only impact transwomen. And I have also seen transwomen perpetuating chaos & destruction whenever feminists try to organize in the UK to actually focus on women's rights for once (e.g., in September a group of mostly male transactivists literally banged on the windows of a feminist meeting for over an hour, trying to drown out the speakers' voices and intimidate the women inside into silence. One of the female attendees at the feminist event actually suffered a PTSD-induced panic attack, because of the angry baritone voices and aggressive males pounding on the windows [the meeting was held in the basement, so the pounding was coming from above and went on for ages. I saw a video clip of just some of it, and it was deafening.])

23
CallaAETHIOPICASailBoule’s #1 fan•

Exactly. I feel like so few TW care. They want what they want only and they only value the opinions from women that will be inclusive to them. The ones that won’t feel comfortable around any males, transitioned or not are still called terfs and other misogynistic slurs, I mean the other day I say a self professed truly dysphoric TW call lesbians homely looking because they were frustrated they weren’t finding dates. Like wtf? I’m just so tired of it all. Women are expected to bend over backwards and coddle a small group of the population, mainly because we are being bullied and gaslit into doing so, not asking if we really want to. We can’t bring up issues or problems, we get silenced for everything, and then on top of that the actual violence? It’s horrible.

20
AgainstTheGrainTrans•

Hey I just wanted to say, I think that what you said in the beginning of your comment regarding the pronouns and basic human rights should be more than enough. I would like to thank you for that, that should really be all that is needed. Is it just more or have things spun out of control in the last 10 years or less? Trans people seemed to be getting by just fine before right?

7
CallaAETHIOPICASailBoule’s #1 fan•

Thanks. I know it’s mainly tucutes but I have heard transmed TW say fucked up things about women and I can’t give them a free pass just because they are dysphoric. Women can’t talk about our bodies, we can’t talk about our periods or other female reproductive health issues, we can’t have spaces devoid of males because it’s phobic and bigoted, we aren’t allowed to have a sexual orientation but we are all forced to have a gender attraction and we apparently all have a gender identity, we don’t get a say. It’s just crazy how fast things have spun out of control.

15
Havoc_doll•

There's no compromise that will not hurt women and girls.

There's no compromise that will allow women to set our own boundaries and have single sex space or opportunities without the permission of men.

A compromise will mean that we have to lie and say that a man in front of us is a woman.

33
lisasimpsonfanWoman is not an identity•

GC: No compromises. We have be forced to make compromises for males since forever. Fuck them and fuck their feelings. We are not going to put our needs and wants aside anymore for men who think their feelings matter more than our rights. We have fought with blood and tears for everything we have so just handing it over to a bunch of porn sick men who want to play dress up because they 'feel like it' would be like spitting in our grandmothers and mother's faces. They get nothing.

26
[deleted]•

I use preferred pronouns and names. I support the effort to build unisex private bathrooms and trans specific spaces when needed. What more should I "compromise" on?

26
ascreamingbirdPro-Trans•

Nothing at all. I'm trans and I agree with you.

9
MrFahrenheit46gc truscum transboy•

Same.

6
AgainstTheGrainTrans•

I think that trans people need to compromise on all the bullshit the activists have been pedaling the last five or six years. I'm more of a transmedicalist and I feel that the trans community has been taken over by loons, it has effected the whole community and those outside of it and trans people like myself are now in the minority and are labelled bigot scum for thinking that a person cannot change their biological sex, that only women can get pregnant and have periods, that transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen and that no revamp of the definition of man and woman is required if trans people could just face up to who and what they are by definition.

I'm a transphobe for holding the views that only women can get pregnant and a support group for the same that excludes transwomen is not transphobic.

I mean at this stage they are redefining transphobia to be anything they dislike. The word itself is losing meaning. Dont get me wrong, I'm not GC, I'm trans, and there are a good percentage of the trans community who hold similar beliefs to my own but somewhere in the last 10 to 5 years the community has been over taken by loons who are coming out with straight bullshit and calling you scum if you dont agree or tell transwomen to get out of pregnancy support groups etc. I mean I would not mind if they were there just out of interest, to gain insight into the experiences of pregnancy for women etc, but nearly any comment you find or experience, you see transwomen infusing the group with negativity and guilt because she cannot get pregnant like the women in the group. Its really self centred, I know it is sad for the transwomen but that it not the place for it, those women a celebrating and supporting each other. Leave it alone to be a positive experience.

Sorry to fixate on the pregnancy side of things, I have been doing some alone lurking to see how bad the problem was so my head had been in this space recently.

25
peakingatthemomentTrans male, HSTS, GC Aspiring•

Wow, what you said about pregnancy groups is really horrifying. The level of entitlement and lack of empathy (towards the group they claim to be a part of no less!) makes my blood boil. 😡

9
Streetmamamona•

I totally agree with you.

“I mean at this stage they are redefining transphobia to be anything they dislike.” This is so so dangerous. This is a difficult time to live in, while I do believe that ideas can be dangerous, censoring free speech is dangerous. They’ve labeled women who don’t agree with them 100% as TERFs and grouped them in with racists and Nazis when that’s absolutely not the case. And now people who have these opposing opinions are forced to hide in fear. It feels so backwards especially considering our racist & sexist president who says whatever fucked up shit he wants.

I think GC people could compromise but at this point the TRAs are pushing so hard that the only option is to push back. Ideally, if more people would participate in conversations (not accusatory arguments) about these issues like we do in this sub opposed to mocking and hating women who don’t 100% agree with them (cough r/gendercynical) then there could be some headway. But the majority of trans women are pushing too hard and not listening. They label you as a TERF and thereby render your words and worries invalid. It’s sadly ironic that when I try to talk to men about my daily womanly issues they never truly listen, only defend, just as so many trans women do, people who in theory want these issues.

There will always be people, especially women, who are critical of trans women, but I think if they were able to respect boundaries and actually listen to women’s concerns (which are largely about their safety and rights) then there could be some sort of middle ground between us.

5
RepresentativeNose7•

What is it we’re to compromise on?

If it’s to protect the concept of gender identity in law (and thus have to extend access to female spaces based on self-ID, cede woman-centred healthcare practices and funding)?

No we can’t compromise on that. There’s a fundamental ontological and epistemological difference that translates to jeopardizing reproductive rights, women’s safety, access to sport, etc.

This approach also undermines feminism full stop. Because if we agree to the concept of “cis”, it means that we voluntarily align ourselves with subjugation. It means undermining LGB rights as well. Absolutely not.

If trans experience were once again understood as a psychiatric disorder, sure I’d support that. There’s no harm to feminism in supporting the needs of people with mental illness. It doesn’t challenge our very existence. So that trans people could get their own, separately funded services - ones that can and should meet their unique needs.

It is unfair to upend the whole fabric of society and its structures to meet the outrageous demands of a very few. Especially when this comes at a cost to the well-being and rights of half the population.

As a comparison minority group, meeting the needs of people with disabilities is usually a benefit to others. Not only people in wheelchairs benefit from ramps, accessible transit. Etc.

Even there there are limits. (Will expand in a comment below)

24
RepresentativeNose7•

This is a banal example but here it is. There’s a city where people must use transit cards to pay for transit. There is the potential in the technology to have the machines at stations show the balance on the card when it’s used. (Nearby cities use the same kind of card and show the balance.)

It’s I think literally one very litigious blind person who’s said it’s unfair for him to not be able to see his balance when sighted people can. Can’t do it by audio because this infringes on everyone else’s privacy. So the city is afraid of this guy tying them up in court, and so no one can see or hear their balance at stations. Not the broke people who are measuring their dollars against their time. Not the people who’ve been ripped off by malfunctions in the system and just want to keep tabs on what’s going on.

The wild thing is, blind people travel for free, they get a separate kind of card that gives them access to all transit. They don’t have to worry about a balance.

That kind of bullshit, where a small minority is hamstringing a majority, is outrageous and untenable.

19
villanelle23eve•

You said it.

8
adungititever thinked how mens feel ?•

It is unfair to upend the whole fabric of society and its structures to meet the outrageous demands of a very few.

That isn't the main problem. We should aim to be inclusive of minority groups, even if it means "upending the whole fabric of society". After all, look at gay rights.

2
RepresentativeNose7•

Gay rights don’t infringe upon the rights of others, though. Nothing is taken away by gay people having the option to marry or not be imprisoned for having sex. Literally no downside to that.

20
adungititever thinked how mens feel ?•

Because you added that point under "especially", implying the previous point has merit on its own.

1
flapyourwings•

GC. No, I am not willing to compromise, because experience has shown that if you give TRAs an inch, they take five miles. Women don't owe anyone shit and we definitely don't owe them our time, space, or energy. Stop riding the coattails of legitimate social justice movements and do your own damn political labor for a change.

24
Glamalez•

ALL: What reasons are there for women to compromise with transwomen, or vice versa?

A- There are no reasons. Trans people need to find their own path, to create their own place and space in this world. Taking from us is not equality and they end up leaving trans men behind in their quest to colonize women.

GC: is there any way that you are willing to compromise?

A-No

If not, why not?

A-Because they are not women and never will be. They are trans and trans people (men and women) deserve equality but not on our backs, and again they would be leaving trans men behind. It’s not equality if you have to take it from someone else and you leave half your people behind.

ALL: what would you need from the other to be willing to compromise?

A- Sanity

What would you be willing to give up to compromise?

A-Nothing

23
[deleted]•

[deleted]

20
gayorles57•

I feel the same way re: preferred pronouns. In most if not all cases IRL, I will use them as long as the person isn't harassing or being rude to me. I view it as an act of generosity that no one is entitled to, but that I will willingly perform as long as the kindness is mutual.

But I'm also kind of torn on that point, especially when it comes to "trans kids", because I feel like reinforcing a delusion is not actually a kind thing to do (note: I'm not claiming that "being trans" is deluded. I'm referring to the segment of the trans population who believes that an actual sex change is genuinely possible. THAT is a delusion, and it's one that I don't want to contribute to even in the slightest way [e.g. by using opposite-sexed pronouns]–especially when it comes to kids.)

10
villanelle23eve•

ALL: What reasons are there for women to compromise with transwomen, or vice versa?

The reasons for women to compromise is that women are never listened to, and QT is winning in society. So we need to compromise and team up with someone to hold on to at least a few essential sex specific rights.

GC: is there any way that you are willing to compromise?

I don't think we need to, because we've already compromised a lot. Anything more would be giving more away than their fair share. The argument at this point is not about practical concerns, but about belief systems. And that's not something you should be compelled to compromise on.

If so, what ways and why?

If you mean team up, I'd love for us to be able to have conversations with truscum, to figure out similarities and differences without stigma, and to be able to not call each other names.

QT seem like a lost cause, but their theories are fun if nothing else. I miss the days you could pontificate on qt without getting called a terf for stating your experience.

ALL: what would you need from the other to be willing to compromise?

Stop shutting women who disagree with you down. Have common sense, and an understanding of patriarchy and how men get prioritized over women.

What would you be willing to give up to compromise?

It doesn't require giving something up, because I believe there are solutions both parties won't object to. If pressed to think of an answer, I'd be willing to treat people with dysphoria with respect and use their pronouns instead of showing offense, in order to not give them undue dysphoria. I dunno at what point that treads into lying territory and at what point I'd have to stop, like what if we were debating? There might be more things.

14
gayorles57•

I'm GC, and I feel like my views have already been quite well-represented in this thread (and I've responded to a few top-level comments to add a few additional thoughts of my own). I'd really like to see some more top-level comments from QT/trans people, if possible? Are y'all out there?

13
peakingatthemomentTrans male, HSTS, GC Aspiring•

I wish there was a compromise of some kind that would help everyone, but I really don't think there is. Women are right to stand up against transwomen wanting them to compromise their hard-fought sex-based protections. TRAs have made it extremely clear that they will take everything they possibly can and any gain they make is likely just a stepping stone to wanting to take more. I've been aware of the trans community long enough to witness this in my lifetime. What was being asked for in 2002, when I was a part of that community, was completely different than what trans activists are demanding now.

I wish that transmed ideas (which used to just be common sense) were the solution and I truly sympathize with them, but I’ve seen too much to believe requiring dysphoria is enough. Predatory, misogynistic males who I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable around can still have dysphoria. Even if that weren’t the case, I feel like it impossible to gatekeep adequately to non-dysphorics. I heard transwomen brag about lying to therapists nearly 20 years ago and so even the gatekeeping we had then wasn’t enough.

It’s hard, because I don’t know where any of this leaves me or people like me. One luxury of being stealth is that you feel like nothing about trans issues (at least as they affect trans people) really affects you directly anymore.

13
CorporalWotjekfemale athlete•

I feel the entire psychiatry industry is long due for an overhaul. I went for a diagnosis before, and though I tried to be as honest as possible, it struck me how easy it was to tell which answers when checked would lead to a positive diagnosis, and how easy it would be to exaggerate your symptoms to get the diagnosis you want. Add to that how fast-tracked (read: unreliable) “gender dysphoria” diagnoses are, and how psychiatrists have a political incentive (read: bias) right now to affirm everyone who comes in, and it’s a wonder no one cried foul sooner.

8
hollyboombah•

Psychiatry is difficult. Someone who is mentally healthy won't want a diagnosis most of the time (barring extreme circumstances). If someone is threatening suicide as a part of BorderlinePD, for example, they are still unwell. It's just not depression or suicide ideation, it's an emotional regulation disorder.

A good psychiatrist won't diagnose quickly though. It took me months of both therapy and medication to be diagnosed with just MDD, even though I self reported feeling suicidal since I was a pre teen (and had evidential proof of diaries from back then).

The trans thing really is awful, as with any other disorder when someone cries suicide they are put in a high dependency hospital ward until the risk is lower, and released once stable. It doesn't make sense to me that they have completely upended the whole basis of psychiatric diagnosis for transgender patients. It makes me feel like something is very wrong and there is a strong financial backing pushing this.

I've posted my credentials before but I have a degree in Psychology from over a decade ago (where trans was a mental illness), and I've worked in mental health and disability since then. The way the system has changed so quickly is scary, and it feels wrong. With all my other clients I am meant to gently probe and push once rapport is established. Critical thinking helps with both healing and recovery, even though it is confronting. We aren't allowed to do that with trans people. Conversely, we ARE with LGB. I can ask a lesbian about her history and what makes her feel like she is a lesbian. I can ask her to define it and help her root out any internalised homophobia (if this is something she has discussed wanting to explore of course. I wouldn't push someone about their sexuality without consent), but with my trans clients I can't. Even if they are confused I have to just affirm affirm affirm. Any questioning and I could be fired.

It's insane. It's not how mental disorders are meant to be treated.

7
CorporalWotjekfemale athlete•

What would LGB people go to psychiatrists for?

2
gayorles57•

Depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. Plenty of reasons. LGB people are just people!

6
hollyboombah•

For mental health concerns. I'm not saying LGB people are mentally unwell, I'm saying in situations where someone is LGB/T and has a diagnosis and I work with them the way I'm allowed to help is different

5
peakingatthemomentTrans male, HSTS, GC Aspiring•

Agreed! It was bad years ago and I feel like the pressure to fast-track diagnoses are almost certainly worse now due to political pressure. Informed-consent exists now too which just seems like blatant medical malpractice.

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peakingatthemomentTrans male, HSTS, GC Aspiring•

I can't really imagine doing that. 😑

My entire life is built on being seen as a member of my transitioned sex and I'd honestly be terrified at the prospect of that changing because it feel like it's all I've known. I recognize my beliefs on this subject contradict aspects of my life.

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LoveSloaneOPI finally learned how to flair! flairy flair•

Would you compromise, and adjust to mark that you’re trans, If protections were adequately in place?

I’m only asking because you acknowledge the contradiction

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peakingatthemomentTrans male, HSTS, GC Aspiring•

I can't say for certain because I don't know exactly what that compromise would look like, but I feel like I would if I knew it were safe to do so.

Living stealth has a lot of good points, but it doesn't feel good to have to always hide part of yourself and history (even if that part of your isn't something you like). It makes you guarded and sometimes you distance people without meaning to because you feel like they would think if you differently if they knew. Secrets are hard and if there were a way I didn't have to keep this one from people it would really be like having a weight lifted. I'm not saying I'd walk around telling everyone, but feeling like you can't hurts. I don't know if that makes sense.

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Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord•

The compromise I am and have always been willing to make is that I won' t call them members of their biological sex if they won' t force me to call them members of their target sex. And third spaces.

I am really curious about what they would answer to your questions, though, because whenever this argument comes up it seems like most of them can' t think of anything they are willing to compromise on.

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littlerbear•

Compromise what, exactly?

I'm going to speak in generalities. I'm sure there are trans people who simply want to live their lives peacefully and have no interest in gaining access to women's spaces. Most people don't want to have a negative impact on others' lives.

That said: transwomen have already infiltrated women's sports, taking awards, scholarships, even injuring female competitors. They're also allowed in women's fitting rooms in department stores - I won't use fitting rooms anymore because I don't want to share a space in which I'm vulnerable with an unknown man. Women's restrooms are now available for transwomen, women's comfort and safety be damned. Transgenderism has been worked into school curricula from early childhood through high-school. Transwomen have flooded lesbian dating sites, trying to bully gay women into dating and having sex with them (suck my girldick, indeed). Transpeople can have co-workers fired for using the wrong pronouns....the list goes on.

What is left for women to give up or give ground on? Even our sense of ourselves as women is under fire from trans people, with the pornification of everything, the propagation of even more unrealistic beauty standards by which women are judged. And, most importantly, the rigid gender stereotypes enforced by trans ideology.

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gayorles57•

u/Maskbehindmasks, in one of your replies to me last night you said that trans people are losing rights and have less political power than women. You cited Trump's military ban as one of your main points, despite the fact that anyone who needs regular medications, e.g. diabetics, are generally banned too. Anyway, even if the military issue was truly a case of discrimination against trans people (which I don't believe it is), how can you honestly say that women as a class have more political power/clout than the trans community after reading u/littlerbear's comment here...?

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Maskbehindmasks•

Because it’s mostly bunk or non political. In the us you certainly can’t be fired for misgendering someone. Dating sites aren’t political agencies. Neither are private sports leagues. None of that is political. Are there a bunch of trans women being really shitty to lesbians about dating? Sure but that’s not political power.

They're also allowed in women's fitting rooms in department stores - I won't use fitting rooms anymore because I don't want to share a space in which I'm vulnerable with an unknown man.

Again private, not political and the exact same situation we are in.

Transgenderism has been worked into school curricula from early childhood through high-school.

Good. How else can we maybe someday not be seen as freaks? Exposure is how you normalize.

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littlerbear•

In the us you certainly can’t be fired for misgendering someone.

You can be reprimanded for harassment, written up, and indeed fired for misgendering someone depending on the company you work for. If women express discomfort with men using the women's restroom, the women are the ones told to accommodate the unwanted men; the men aren't asked to try to avoid causing they're female co-workers discomfort.

Dating sites aren’t political agencies.

No one said that dating sites are political agencies, but if women tried to browbeat men into having sex with/dating them I don't think anyone would be asked to 'understand' and 'validate' these creepy women. There's certainly no movement afoot in the media to convince men to date assertive, gender-nonconforming or conventionally unattractive women. There's all kinds of this cajoling (cudgeling) in the media now to convince everyone to date trans people.

All of the things I'm talking about are political. Women have marched, protested, gone on strike, been beaten, and died to make sure they have secure sanitary facilities at work, to put laws in place where on-the-job harassment has to be taken seriously. Since women have historically been excluded from men's spaces, by law, women have had to create their own spaces where they can organize politically, socially, to mitigate some of the effects of societally sanctioned sexism. So, yeah, all of this is political.

They're also allowed in women's fitting rooms in department stores - I won't use fitting rooms anymore because I don't want to share a space in which I'm vulnerable with an unknown man.

Again private, not political and the exact same situation we are in.

Since there have been laws passed allowing men into women's fitting rooms, this has indeed become political, and a restriction on women's rights to be safe outside of the home.

Good. How else can we maybe someday not be seen as freaks? Exposure is how you normalize.

Wrong. This simply exposes kids to sexual fetishism when they're too young to understand it. Normalizing mental illness is not something we need more of. We need to label it as what it is: a psychiatric disorder that needs treatment and is not to be encouraged in any way.

If you want to wear women's clothes, go ahead. But don't expect women or society at large to play along with your delusions. Everyone deserves to be able to express themselves however they wish. They do not, however, have the right to control how I think about them, whether or not I include them in my social life or whether or not I want to share my secure spaces with them. If you don't see how this is political you're either being naive or intentionally disingenuous.

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InASeaOfReality•

Coexistence. I want a world where as many people as possible are happy. I will always prioritize (female) women but when it comes to trans rights that don't directly negatively affect women I am supportive.

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trutranstranssexual | critical of gender•

https://www.reddit.com/r/GCdebatesQT/comments/eajmtz/why_do_transmedicaliststransums_dislike_gcs/faz3uns/

Wrote my original post here, reposting:

Realistically, what can trans women do? We are the among the lowest on the socitial scale. Many of us have been rejected from our families, don't have friends, and have trouble finding love. Low education. Poor employability. High costs from medical bills from hormones and surgeries. Actual dysphoric trans people are a tinyyyyy percentage, somewhere closer to 0.01% - 0.05% of the population. We are fighting hard just to survive our own lives. What can we possibly give? Just like what can a disabled person possibly give back to society when you remove 2 toilet stalls to make 1 wheelchair friendly stall. There's not a lot we can do because we don't have much to begin with.

I'm a bit more adjusted now after being on hormones for half my life and being full time for over a decade. I do my best to help out the women in my life. I encourage my colleagues to assert themselves more and be more confident and they're smarter than they believe themselves to be. I tell my friends to stop putting up with shit from their boyfriends and husbands. Maybe cause I'm not as afraid of hurting guys fweelingz after spending so many years surrounded by them. I also help out and teach other girls at women's coding meetups. I fight against sexism in the workplace because it affects me too. But beyond all these little things there's not a lot I can do, because I don't have a lot to begin with. I mean I can't even protect my own kind from QTs colonizing our spaces...hence why I'm here hanging out with people who don't like me.

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LoveSloaneOPI finally learned how to flair! flairy flair•

This is kind of frustrating to read for a lot of reasons lol

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LoveSloaneOPI finally learned how to flair! flairy flair•

“Realistically, what can trans women do? We are the among the lowest on the socitial scale. Many of us have been rejected from our families, don't have friends, and have trouble finding love. Low education. Poor employability. High costs from medical bills from hormones and surgeries. Actual dysphoric trans people are a tinyyyyy percentage, somewhere closer to 0.01% - 0.05% of the population. We are fighting hard just to survive our own lives.”

What does this have to do with anything? This appeals for sympathy while not addressing anything. This has nothing to do with the compromises we’re discussing, other than you acknowledging you have nothing to offer women, while taking from them. Only you phrase it so people will be sympathetic to you.

“What can we possibly give?”

Is it fair to take so much when you have nothing to give?

“Just like what can a disabled person possibly give back to society when you remove 2 toilet stalls to make 1 wheelchair friendly stall. There's not a lot we can do because we don't have much to begin with.”

Disabled people use sex separated spaces properly, and don’t ask for their “needs” to be prioritized over women’s needs and rights. Disabled people don’t ask the world to pretend they are not disabled. Disabled people also don’t use other marginalized groups as an example or appropriate anyone else’s struggle. And everyone can logically understand why they need the things they ask for.

“I'm a bit more adjusted now after being on hormones for half my life and being full time for over a decade. I do my best to help out the women in my life. I encourage my colleagues to assert themselves more and be more confident and they're smarter than they believe themselves to be. I tell my friends to stop putting up with shit from their boyfriends and husbands. Maybe cause I'm not as afraid of hurting guys fweelingz after spending so many years surrounded by them. I also help out and teach other girls at women's coding meetups.”

So, you’re a good friend? That’s nice.

“I fight against sexism in the workplace because it affects me too.”

This is not... lol. You fighting against sexism because it affects you is you fighting for yourself.

“But beyond all these little things there's not a lot I can do, because I don't have a lot to begin with. I mean I can't even protect my own kind from QTs colonizing our spaces...hence why I'm here hanging out with people who don't like me.”

This lets me know you could possibly understand how women feel about transwomen colonizing our spaces...

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trutranstranssexual | critical of gender•

Is it fair to take so much when you have nothing to give?

Why exactly is it that you believe that I have taken...?

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gayorles57•

The second paragraph is rather rage-inducing, but thanks for sharing your perspective.

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Bad_Girl_LalaVagina Person- notalltrans•

This was in response to my comment in the other thread. I was thinking of how to respond and I didn't get a chance to write anything.

You sound like a nice person and a good friend. But none of that has anything to do with whether or not you're a woman.

Realistically, what can trans women do?

All we want is for males to respect our no. Stop co-opting our words and stop colonizing our spaces. Stop with the emotional manipulation. We want laws protecting women's spaces and protecting us from discrimination. We want gender stereotypes to stop being oppressively applied to us.

Like I said, I think you sound like a nice person and a good friend. But if we are talking about compromise- in terms of what you can give to us in return of what we'll give to you- I don't really how any of that is relevant.

Does your response work for me, too. Can I talk about the oppression and hardships in my life and talk about what a good, supportive friend I am- and then you'll stop saying you're a woman? Wouldn't you tell me, what does that have to do with anything I said?

This is sort of relevant, but I feel like my comment needs some context:

I'm old enough and experienced enough to have learned the lesson that just bc I'm a woman, I'm not required to sacrifice myself for everyone with a problem. Only women are expected to do this. We are rewarded when we comply and punished when we don't. I understand that TW have their issues, but they have nothing to do with women issues. Your idea of woman is just an idea. It's a lived reality for me and other women here. It's an unchanging lived reality that effects a significant portion of my life and experiences. I don't identify as a woman, I didn't choose to be a woman, and how I dress or alter my appearance doesn't change that. You're lived experiences are those of a TW and they are different than the lived experiences of women. It matters. It matters bc women experience oppression based off the sole fact that we are female. I don't believe this is hard for you to understand bc you clearly understand it with the relationship between tucutes and transmeds. It's the same thing with women and TW. We are different. It doesn't make anyone bad or good, it's just reality. Us GC women aren't speaking out to be mean, this is a direct response to how trans activism is hurting women- right now, IRL.

And if you want to bring up, well I'm different bc I pass and you don't know, I've already given my thoughts on that here- https://www.reddit.com/r/GCdebatesQT/comments/e8mt1v/can_we_discuss_womens_rights/fao6jho/

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trutransopting into womanhood since 2005•

But none of that has anything to do with whether or not you're a woman.

Again, I've literally never ever asked anyone to call me a woman even a single time in my life. Not once. Go through my entire post history and you'll never see a single time I've asked anyone to call me a woman.

So really, I'm sick and tired of GCers generalizing my behavior and what I am just because I'm trans. Like seriously. Hasn't everyone been fighting for the last few decades stop generalizing people by their race? By their sex? Yet GCers think everyone single trans people is the same and we're somehow all equally as bad and equally to be blamed.

Stop co-opting our words and stop colonizing our spaces. Stop with the emotional manipulation. We want laws protecting women's spaces and protecting us from discrimination. We want gender stereotypes to stop being oppressively applied to us.

I have not colonized any spaces.

I have not emotionally manipulated anyone.

I have expressed countless times that I support the laws to protect discrimination.

I have expressed countless times that gender sterotypes are harmful and I disagree.

And every single time I do that, I get banned from LGBT spaces.

Every single time I say that, all I get are GCers telling me that I'm not a woman.

Can you guys even read? Did I ever call myself a woman? No.

and then you'll stop saying you're a woman? Wouldn't you tell me, what does that have to do with anything I said?

No, you tell me. What does anything you said have to do with what I said?

Stop with this strawman nonsense and projecting on me for what other people have done.

Again, what are you expecting me to do? Or do you expect me to just be your punching bag and let you rage all your grief out at me because you're unhappy with other trans people?

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Bad_Girl_LalaVagina Person- notalltrans•

If you're not telling people to call you a woman and you dont feel entitled to women's spaces, I dont have any problems. I'm not asking or expecting you to do anything else.

Can you guys even read?

Lol, yes, I'm literate.

Most transmeds here still want us to consider them women and they believe TW should have access to women spaces. If that's not what you believe or support, then we are in agreement.

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trutransopting into womanhood since 2005•

If that's not what you believe or support, then we are in agreement.

I don't support people influencing others on how they should perceive someone else.

So I don't support trans people claiming to be women and expecting everyone to see them as a woman.

But I also don't support people claiming someone a trans person is man and expecting everyone to see them as a man.

That being said, both sides are allowed to lay out the facts. ie. second person should still be allowed to say that the person was born male (though I think it's a dickish move to out someone), while the first person should be allowed to say that they transitioned.

I support people's freedom in deciding whether they want to see the trans person as a man or a woman.

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Chronoset1•

Thank you. Very much thank you.

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