"I couldn’t research online": The Film "1917" and its Production Team's Badhistory

TV/Movies

This is probably a bit unusual since I'm not analyzing the movie itself (there's no wide release yet!), but rather a few recent interviews with the production team. It's not looking all that good. I do want to preface this with that the team, and Krysty Wilson-Cairns in particular since she made these comments, seem like fine people and fine artists. None of what I'm saying has any real bearing on their writing abilities, or ability to make a compelling film. None of this is held personally against them. None of this should be used by anyone to harass them. This will also mainly focus on the UK as 1917 is about British soldiers.

Easily one of the most baffling comments is this by co-writer Krysty Wilson-Cairns:

There are other reasons why the second war is covered more. It’s easier to research, via conversations with survivors, as well as books, newsreels and many other sources. In contrast, there are no living survivors of World War I. Wilson-Cairns adds, “I couldn’t research online; I had to go to the Imperial War Museum and to France, and find books out of print for decades.”

So this is one of the most ridiculous things I've read about the First World War. There's the excellent International Encyclopedia of the First World War. While it is still a tertiary source, being an Encyclopedia, each article is written by a scholar in the field, goes through the Project's editorial board, and are well cited with other academic books and articles. There are articles that range from Japan's War Aims to Veneral Diseases to Operation Albrich (when the film takes place!). But it's free, and I think even more importantly, is transnational. It's not focused on a national history of the First World War, but putting it into context for everyone. This is an easy to find and free resource for learning about the First World War. Also available online are so many lectures, whether it's ones given at the National WWI Museum and Memorial in the United States, the Western Front Association, and various universities and other institutions. These are free and are lectures given by historians of the subject! It's so easy to do even just a little bit of research on the First World War online.

Secondly, it has actual, current historians with in-print books going "Am I a joke to you"? And while I'm sure if you're researching a specific unit there may be some hard to find books for that specific unit, that doesn't mean that there aren't ways to locate them online, archive.org, for instance, is a great resource for finding out of print and out of copyright material. There are lots of old, out of print books on there.

Of course, that was bad-history about the process of doing research on one of the most written about events in human history. There is some poor history in regards to the war itself.

From the Variety article

“The Second World War was about countries uniting to fight the tyranny of the Nazis; it seemed like the only option to save humanity. But with the First World War, the motivations are obscure. It was partly for profiteering, partly because empires were starting to lose their stakes abroad.”

and from this Polygon article

World War I and II get compared all the time, and the real difference is that World War II had proper baddies. To put it into scripting terms, Nazis make for real good villains — total arseholes, the worst. World War I is a more complicated historical shitshow, for lack of a better word. Empire versus empire, war over treaties, men fighting for king and country without really knowing what that means. What fascinated me about WWI was that the trenches were sometimes as close as 50 yards apart. The man you hated over there was the exact same person as you. By the time we got to 1915 or 1916, a lot of the people had realized that the enemy was human just like them. There was something powerful and unifying about that conflict. That alone is enough to capture my attention. Sixty million people were dragged into the war, and that’s 60 million stories. I was like, “Gimme.”

These both basically say the same thing, which is the First World War was fought over nothing and was pointless and only wasted lives, while the Second World War started and ended as a Moral Crusade to save humanity.

This is what I feel is a false dichotomy. Peter Grant writes in his book National Myth and the First World War in Modern Popular Music

One problem to overcome in the mythologisation of the First World War in Britain is the reason for British involvement. The prevention of German military domination and the violation of Belgian neutrality seems, to many, especially at a distance of 100 years, a poor excuse for nearly a million British and Empire deaths. The fact that Britain went to war again in 1939 for entirely the same reason (with Poland substituting for Belgium) is now lost on a British public whose somewhat morbid fascination with the evils of Nazism and, entirely justified, revulsion at the Holocaust has retrospectively turned the latter conflict into a moral crusade. Most British people have forgotten, or do not wish to know, that our involvement in the Second World War was but a sideshow in a war won by massive attritional battles on the Eastern Front where losses dwarfed those of even the Somme or Passchendaele. In order to attain their mythical status events such as Dunkirk, the Blitz and the Battle of Britain also required a contrasting set of events, ones that were mythically futile, and the First World War where thousands were killed to move Sir Douglas Haig’s ‘drinks cabinet six inches closer to Berlin’ provided the ideal contrast (Curtis and Elton 1989 ). It became necessary for the First World War to be depicted as futile in order to demonstrate Britain’s key role in victory and the moral superiority of the Second.

This contrasting idea of the World Wars is also something that Chris Kempshall notes in his book The First World War in Computer Games (although it was less arguing about its purpose, and more discussing how such a dichotomy is reflected in games).

What Wilkes-Cairn has done is demonstrate that dichotomy perfectly. All the nuance is taken out of both conflicts. The fact that the UK was still a global Empire in 1939 isn't touched upon or even thought of. Notice how she describes the First World War as "Empire versus Empire", but at least one of those Empires was still kicking (and it wasn't the only one involved in the war...)! The Second World War wasn't started to "save humanity", it was started for a far more mundane goal, and one that truly was closer to the UK's reasons for joining the First World War than is often acknowledged.

But with the First World War, the motivations are obscure

The debate around the start of the First World War, will in my opinion, never end. It's too tied up in a lot of different factors such as national identity to ever truly be put to rest. But to say that motivations were obscure? I don't think the debate over the nature and interpretation of events should be confused for being obscure. We know, for the most part, why different nations made the various choices they did! For example, The United Kingdom was in part concerned with a realpolitikal goal in a "balance of power" and a more immediate goal of upholding Belgian Neutrality. These goals ended up aligning, or depending on your interpretational bent, Belgian Neutrality served only Realpolitiks, but no matter your position it's not really "obscure".

It was partly for profiteering, partly because empires were starting to lose their stakes abroad

This statement would come down to your definition of "profiteering" and "abroad". Who and what exactly are "profiteering"? Arms merchants? The nation at large? Would Austria-Hungary annexing Serbia count as "profiteering" under her definition or is it simply a money based argument? If it's the latter, then that doesn't hold much weight in my opinion. Nations did not decide to go to war in 1914 so businessmen and arms dealers could make money, that I would argue was an effect of the war happening, but not a goal or reason for starting it.

Similarly, how does she define "abroad". The UK was fighting for a balance of power "abroad" (Europe) in the widest of definitions or was she referring to Colonialism and Empire? The biggest colonial rivals: UK, France, and Russia were aligned and Imperialism wasn't that big of a driving factor in the start of the war. This is another area where I'd argue that an effect of the war is easily mistaken as a cause of the war if that's what she meant.

Empire versus empire, war over treaties, men fighting for king and country without really knowing what that means.

The Second World War was also "Empire versus Empire" (and it's arguable that some nations not traditionally classed as an Empire, such as the USA, were Empires or at least acted like them). Was the Second World War not also over treaties? This right here is ultimately why Britain went to war with Germany in 1939. It's a treaty! And that's not to say there weren't other factors that fed into that and had contributed to the declaration of war (because there were!), but it really isn't all that far off from 1914.

As to the last bit, about soldiers "not really knowing what that means", I find that to be downright insulting to those who were there. And I know, I'm falling into the trap of having the ghosts of the past haunt my argument, but hear me out. For me, it's not about "honouring" them in the way that is often said but simply about letting them speak and tell their own story. Not to infantilize them as "lions led by donkeys", idiots who didn't have an idea about what they were doing or fighting for. They were real, complex people. Any modicum of research would show this, one of the most easily accessible texts on the subject is Richard Holmes's Tommy: The British Soldier on the Western Front 1914-18. You end up realizing that more often than not those who were there had an actual idea of why and what they were fighting for, and that on the whole, they wanted to keep fighting and felt they had to win. Not everyone always agreed whether it was those who thought the war should end or those who thought the war should be fought a different way, but overall there was a feeling that the war was necessary by British soldiers.

By the time we got to 1915 or 1916, a lot of the people had realized that the enemy was human just like them.

If this were true I don't think we would have seen the continued drive to fight, or at least that drive would have been smaller. During the Battle of the Somme, for instance, British soldiers would often execute surrendered German soldiers. Some were shot right after surrendering, others were killed in crueller ways (in one example, a wounded prisoner was laying on the ground, when a British soldier activated a mills bomb and placed it on the wounded man's chest.). The war went on until 1918, the war was still cruel for years after 1915 and 1916. While I'm sure there were some who decided it was pointless and that they couldn't fight someone just like them, there were many more who felt the war had to keep going, and even if the enemy was the same, they had already inflicted a blood price that needed to be avenged.

EDIT

Forgot this gem from Variety

It was the first war featuring airplane fighting, machine guns and nerve gas; in other words, it was the birth of modern warfare. And the repercussions were long-lasting. An estimated 16 million died; genocides and the Spanish influenza killed an additional 50 million-100 million. And the cease-fire of 1918 left many things unresolved that erupted again in the World War II.

It wasn't the first war with Airplanes, but it gets a pass since you don't really see dogfighting and the like until the First World War.

But Machine-Guns? Nerve gas? Machine-Guns had been around since the 1880s and used in many Colonial wars, and even non-colonial ones! Principally the Russo-Japanese War... And Nerve Gasses weren't discovered until the 1930s, so odd how they had them during the First World War! The First World War did see the first usage of chemical gasses in that manner, but not nerve agents. So that's a half pass. First usage of gasses on a mass scale in warfare, but not "nerve gasses".

The middle bit is fine, but the last sentence leans way too much into the "Second Thirty Year's War" thesis which I am not personally a fan of. The causes and reasons for both World Wars were fairly distinct, there wasn't a lot that was "left unresolved" that started the Second World War.

Sources:

Links to online Academic resources

Articles

  • Mombauer, Annika. "Guilt or Responsibility? The Hundred-Year Debate on the Origins of World War I". Central European History, Vol. 48, No. 4 (2015), pp. 541-564.

Books

  • Duffy, Christopher. Through German Eyes: The British and the Somme 1916. Pheonix Press. 2007.
  • Grant, Peter. National Myth and the First World War in Modern Popular Music. Palgrave Macmillan. 2017.
  • Herwig, Holger. The First World War: Germany and Austria-Hungary 1914-1918. Bloomsbury Academic. 1996.
  • Herwig, Holger. The Marne: The Opening of World War I and the Battle That Changed the World. Random House. 2011.
  • Holmes, Richard. Tommy: The British Soldier on the Western Front 1914-18. Harper Perennial. 2005.
  • Joll, James. The Origins of the First World War. Longman. Second Edition. 1992.
  • Otte, T.G. July Crisis: The World's Descent into War, Summer 1914. Cambridge University Press. 2015.
  • Strachan, Hew. The First World War Volume 1: To Arms!. OUP Oxford. 2003.

Posted Jan 5, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC · edited

799117
DaLaohu大老虎•

“I couldn’t research online; I had to go to the Imperial War Museum and to France, and find books out of print for decades.”

TRANSLATION: Online research does not look like research to me, nor is it sexy. So, I did what I thought was research.

336
airhornsman•

I'm a librarian and I see this misconception a lot. You don't want these crusty ass world book encyclopedias. Please let me show you all the online resources available to you.

189
Platypuskeeper•

Frankly I think it's a lot more badhistory to promulgate the idea that everything exists online, which it most decidedly doesn't. That's the big misconception of today's young generation. (and frankly, especially wikipedia editors who seem in thrall to the idea that all information is online and therefore if they can't find information online, for free and in English, it didn't happen)

Although WWI research doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to libraries to find books out of print for decades there are certainly tons of narrow areas where you do.

Just a month or two ago I was at the library looking at a typewritten doctoral dissertation from 1984 on microfilm. Literally the only copy in the country (in any format). It's not online of course either, but it's not an insignificant work in that particular subject.

Without knowing what she was researching you're the one making arrogant assumptions if you're going to pretend whatever she was looking for already existed online.

105
boxian•

To be fair, that is a paper and it ought to be digitized and it would be possible to digitize. The material history through items or recognizing things about locations or feel of objects, replicating a pack and the weight or a trench or food prepared - those things are all distinctly not online. Some previously written dissertation not being available online is just a failure of the university/modernizing effort.

26
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

those things are all distinctly not online

But that's also what advisors (such as Andy Robertshaw who worked on the film) are there for.

15
boxian•

Totally. My point was mostly that the examples of what history is not online shouldn’t be text documents

10
Sansos•

"That's the big misconception of today's young generation. (and frankly, especially wikipedia editors who seem in thrall to the idea that all information is online and therefore if they can't find information online, for free and in English, it didn't happen)"

my understanding is that the whole point of Wikipedia is for the layman, if they so choose, should be able to verify that the source says what the article says it says, so the semi-formal requirement that the source exists online in English for the eng lang wiki makes some amount of sense.

23
Conny_and_TheoNeo-Neo-Confucian Xwedodah Missionary•

Also, look at all these boring ass 500+ page theses written by those elitist academics who are just saying the same thing. I want an easy 5 minute rundown for the real history!


Unfortunately truth is most people don't want to do the deep research. Nor do they know how to begin if even.

56
March-Hare•

I want an easy 5 minute rundown for the real history!

I'll stretch to watching a 10-minute long YouTube video if it has animations. Even if they speak too quickly. So long as it's a reductive grand-unifying theory which I can take as gospel.

27
eddyharts•

Yeah please tell me the answers to history, the singular correct answer to an incredible nuanced and complex set of events please, so I know why history happened.

12
EnragedFilia•

What if it's also pretty funny?

5
Saracenenusafricae•

What do you mean this source is only in Arabic. I guess it's not that important.

/A Student in a Middle East studies semeniar.

13
Galaxy_Ranger_Bob•

I've seen it in the other direction, too: "Oh, your source isn't online? Then it doesn't really count as a source, now, does it?"

5
Ale_cityif you teleport civilizations they die•

I know this was 5 months ago but I'm scrolling through old posts, I have a better translation for you:

The internet is full of misinformation, so I did my own research going to a trip to france to boast about my effort and not at all to use thousands of dollars from the movie's budget in a vacation.

2
DaLaohu大老虎•

Your's is more accurate.

2
BATIRONSHARK•

The whole “they didn’t know why they were fighting for” thing always felt kind of elitist and condescending to me

Like poor people wouldn’t be able to understand global politics or alliances in at least broad terms .

175
Kljunas1In the 1400 hundreds most Englishmen were perpendicular•

To me this isn't about being clueless as to what's going on as much as not seeing what's in it for them.

63
BATIRONSHARK•

True but then wouldn’t say for example a random British fisherman have reasons to care for the preservation of their empire due to navigation laws and be aware of that?

or a German housewife realize what more land and or power for her country could do for her children’s future ?

it wouldn’t hard or unlikely for a regular British person to go in a pub “ Belgium promised to stay out of it and got attacked .if we don’t fight for our ally then we’re going back on our word!who will trust us?”

Not saying everyone or even a majority did that. just that a decent number probably did.

59
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS•

To be fair, a lot of the politicians in charge seem not to have had a strong grasp of what they were fighting for wither. Michael Neiberg argues for instance that most of the warring powers' strategic aims actually postdate the outbreak of war, as politicians scrambled to find causes worthy of the bloodshed that had been unleashed in part by mistake.

3
TheBigOilySeaSnake•

Less worthy causes and more a simple settling of centuries-old questions.

Who will control Northern Europe? Who will control the Balkans? What is to be done to the sick-man of Europe? We can expand our colonies at their expense, etc.

Taking all of Russia's "empty" agricultural land, for example, had never been policy but it was a vague sort of idea in quite a few German political heads. This being a total, industrial war justified the strategic decision, which then became policy. This is why Germany was largely satisfied with the post-war territorial changes in 1871, choosing to bobble about with alliances as protection instead of attempting to achieve complete dominance. Once it becomes clear it's do-or-die, complete dominance is the only policy choice. "Germany will either be a world power or will not be at all" as it were.

8
1337duck•

Already making a run for 2020's awards, eh?

123
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Not as frantically as 1917 is making its Oscar run!

125
JellophantOfCakeIf the Mayans were so smart why didn't they have wheels?•

It even has the Firthiest man on the planet in it. That's for sure Oscar material right there.

13
MisanthropeXIncitatus was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Incitatus.•

Joji?

6
Hankhank1•

Good post, but Peter Grant's argument has (at least in that paragraph, I haven't read his work) has some (minor) badhistory in it to, see the recently published How the War Was Won: Air-Sea Power and Allied Victory in World War II by Phillips Payson O'Brien which convincingly argues that the Allied efforts in the second world war were anything but a side show.

I saw 1917 on Christmas Day. I am an amateur, but serious (I've written a book, but I have no PHD ) on the topic of the First World War. It's a good movie, and it gets the history more or less right. It isn't a documentary, it isn't a work of history, it is a film about war that uses the First World War as its framing device. It gets the uniforms right, and the reality of Trench Warfare on the southern Arras front. I highly recommend it.

83
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Phillips Payson O'Brien which convincingly argues that the Allied efforts in the second world war were anything but a side show.

Interesting! The way I've heard things be argued for a while now has been that Russia bore most of the effort. I'll definitely want to check that book out to see a competing view!

It gets the uniforms right, and the reality of Trench Warfare on the southern Arras front.

That's good to hear at least, I always just get worried when it comes to a lot of those old myths...

29
DanDierdorf•

The way I've heard things be argued for a while now has been that Russia bore most of the effort

This can be true at the same time as Western Allied efforts not being a sideshow can be true. It's not an either/or situation.

64
sheppo42•

In my opinion I would think what it could be compared to in WW1 would be to say that the Western Front bore most of the effort - but I wouldn't call Russia and other Eastern Front conflicts a 'sideshow'. If Germany and her allies didn't suffer 5+ million casualties and instead could have them posted to the Western Front we may have been talking about a different story all together right now.

The Allied effort in western Europe pre-DDay in WW2 may not have been to that level, but if we weren't occupying the Axis in North Africa, Italy, Britain and eventually Normandy, we may have been talking about a different story all together right now. But 6/7 of all German losses in the war were in Russia! An alliance is a team, each playing an important role.

30
Hankhank1•

Fair point, but what you mean when you say “ But 6/7 of all German losses in the war were in Russia!”, you’re referring to men lost. However, thanks to allied air/sea power, something like 3/4 of all German material produced never made it to the battlefield. At the battle of Kursk, the largest tank battle in history, the Germans lost at most 350 armored fighting vehicles. Over the course of the land fighting in July and August 1943, the Germans lost 1,331 AFV. In 1943, the Germans produced just over 12,000 AFV. That means the Germans lost less than 3 percent of the AFV they produced in 1943 during the battle of Kursk, and only 11 percent of annual AFV production in all of July and August. During 1943, AFV comprised only 7% of German weapons output. That means that the losses of AFV during the high point of the fighting at Kursk represented an inconsequential 0.2 percent of German armaments production for the year.

To point this out is not to diminish the heroic resistance of the Soviet soldier and people, but rather place it into context. Without Allied air and sea power, which destroyed the vast majority of Axis production, Soviet land battle victories would not have mattered for much.

31
matgopackHitler was literally Germany's Lincoln•

I'm not sure it's easy to attribute it all to the Allied air/sea power there on the destruction of Axis production - or at least, your post looking at those numbers doesn't seem to provide much information on where the rest of that production ended up if it wasn't destroyed in combat at Kursk.

In addition, looking just at your figures for July/August 1943 vs all of production for 1943, the Germans were losing IFVs in the fighting at 2/3 of the rate of their annual production of them. Without further information towards the other months of that year, I don't think it's appropriate to look at that and say that the losses were inconsequential in relation to their production - because if that ratio was the same for the whole year, it'd seem like, at least for IFVs, the majority would have been destroyed in the fighting.

10
124876720Surprisingly, Cambodians have no bad memories of Pol Pot•

That means the Germans lost less than 3 percent of the AFV they produced in 1943 during the battle of Kursk, and only 11 percent of annual AFV production in all of July and August. During 1943, AFV comprised only 7% of German weapons output. That means that the losses of AFV during the high point of the fighting at Kursk represented an inconsequential 0.2 percent of German armaments production for the year.

But which particular AFVs?

Losing a Kettenkrad or an SPW is a very different proposition to losing a Panther or a Tiger, for example.

6
chiron3636•

However, thanks to allied air/sea power, something like 3/4 of all German material produced never made it to the battlefield

So if 3/4 never made it to the field due to allied airpower and 1/4 never made it to the field because Superior German Engineering Can't Build for Shit how did they manage to fight the Soviets at all?

1
Its_a_FriendlyEmperor Flavius Claudius Julianus Augustus of Madagascar•

Furthermore, in the second time around, the USSR would have had a much, much harder time beating the Germans back without lend-lease support.

And you know what made those lend-lease shipments reach the USSR safely? Western allied efforts. I'd say that makes it harder to call those a "sideshow" too.

10
Alpha413Still a Geographical Expression•

Does Italy really count as an occupation, considering it was fighting a Civil War?

2
lgf92•

The Vistula-Oder Offensive, arguably the decisive blow against Nazi Germany by the USSR, waited until allied victory in the Ardennes campaign (the Battle of the Bulge) was likely before it commenced, to ensure that the divisions the Germans held aside for that last push west were out of action or at least diminished. By 12 January - when the Soviets started heading west - the German forces in the west were fully committed to the Operation North Wind offensive and so out of the fight one way or another.

That's not to suggest, as Stalin did, that the Vistula-Oder Offensive was launched to help the US in the Ardennes offensive, but rather that allied efforts in the west enabled and encouraged the decisive push from the east even if only by tying up German forces.

That to me puts aside any question of the Western Allies being a sideshow to the USSR. It was a genuine allied effort that was likely impossible without both sides cooperating.

20
sisurinta•

Not really sure from where you would take Spring of 1945 to be the decisive blow.

Most people would put that moment either in the Summer of '43 for effectively destroying the Wehrmacht's offensive capacity and proving that they could not win attritionally (thereby making German victory impossible); plus it being the beginning of the USAAF/RAF city-destruction campaign in earnest; plus the capitulation of Italy and the opening of a second costly German front

Or they would put it in the Summer of '44 for Bagration and Overlord which effectively killed the Wehrmacht's ability to do anything except hold out as long as possible over three seperate fronts; when the USAAF destroyed a huge portion of Germany's oil reserves and synthetic oil plants; and when almost every remaining national ally that Germany had in Europe was capitulated.

In comparison, the Spring offensive of 1945 was just another series of battles in which an already defeated Germany lost another half a million men in an attempt to prolong the inevitable.

1
Bobondacob•

The Soviets did bear a large portion of the fighting, but they would not have been able to do so without Allied support via Lend-Lease, or the strategic bombing campaign against the Axis.

Grain, oil, railroad/railroad equipment, entire factories and tooling for them sent in boxes, among many other things.

It is very fair to say that without the Allies' logistical support, victory was no guarantee for the Soviets. That's something we didn't need to have the Soviet records open to understand.

6
badneighboursman•

It is very fair to say that without the Allies' logistical support, victory was no guarantee for the Soviets.

I'm glad you phrased it this way. I'm of the mindset that without lend-lease, Germany still would've lost (and USSR could 1v1 Hitler) but the cost would've been astronomical.

I see a lot of people who view lend-lease as a magic hand that ensured Soviet victory while missing out on a few pretty key points. If we're discussing hypotheticals, then "what ifs" go both ways. For all the strife that the Soviets went through at that time (especially civilians) we never really saw them jump into "oh shit, it's desperation time". I'm talking Babushkas with sharpened sticks, child soldiers (on the front lines rather than as reserves which afik occurred in the USSR) etc. Would've been a whole different brand of human darkness.

That said, I'd agree with the "no guarantee"- there are scenarios I could see with the USSR seeking peace with Germany but they're very, very extreme.

5
TheBigOilySeaSnake•

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Stalin was seriously considering peace in 1943 through Sweden, and that without lend-lease he would have gone that route because the Germans we're offering something that would otherwise (and did) take years to accomplish. With that in mind, I'd simply refer to Stalin, and say that it was indeed essential, perhaps not war-losing, but essential.

1
Nachocheeze60•

I respect the thoughtfulness and thoroughness for which you disagree.
I was also able to read a good deal about some fact I did not previously know. Bravo! ..........but I’m still going to see the movie.

50
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

I'm going to end up seeing it at some point, but I'm just majorly disappointed in that it'll likely be a rehashing of old myths.

26
Hankhank1•

It isn't. It is anything but a Lions Led By Donkey's myth.

18
mhl67Trotskyist•

> The biggest colonial rivals: UK, France, and Russia were aligned and Imperialism wasn't that big of a driving factor in the start of the war.

I'd say this is highly disputable. Everyone wanted more territory for themselves, with the partial exception of the UK who wanted to preserve their empire. Regardless of who you want to blame imperialism is usually the prime cause given for the war.

34
TimSEsq•

What one thinks is the cause of WWI depends on your theory of international relations. For example, if you believe strong realpolitik where all a nation cares for is its continuing existence, then WWI (and WWII) are basically continuations of the trend from the 1860s and 1870s for Germany attempting to dominate Europe (in the way the US dominates North America and thus is basically guaranteed to continue to exist).

Under such view, the existence of colonies or other imperialist interests weren't causes of WWI.

19
WillitsThrockmortonVigo the Carpathian School of Diplomacy and Jurispudence•

WW1 was because the UK stopped doing the Buck-passing thing and realized Germany couldn't be stopped without a Bandwagon situation.

This post brought to you by Offensive Realism Gang.

5
TimSEsq•

Something something offshore balancing something something US participation in European wars.

2
WillitsThrockmortonVigo the Carpathian School of Diplomacy and Jurispudence•

Mearsheimer[sic] my dude

2
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

I'd say this is highly disputable

Not really. The Entente Cordiale and Anglo-Russian Entente were designed to smooth out Colonial issues those three nations were having, mainly the UK against Russia & France. While not in a formal alliance, they were pretty well aligned by 1914. France and the UK especially also happened to be two of the biggest Colonial powers.

Colonialism didn't play a role in starting the war, like at all (Although situations were used to play towards Realpolitikal goals, but it wasn't really "colonialsm" that caused those).

But, for clarity's sake, how exactly did Colonialism play a role in starting the war according to you?

6
Abrytanoperation Barbarossa was leftist infighting•

I think Germany's colonial ambitions certainly played a role in worsening relations between them and the other colonial powers. There weren't really major Anglo-German disputes, but German colonialism was focused on commerce and the British felt threatened by this. Protection of colonial possessions was also a secondary justification for expanding the German fleet.

The Moroccan crises where Germany engineered colonial disputes with France in order to try and gain territory from them certainly didn't help relations, although relations would still have been bad enough anyway.

I'd say that colonialism certainly wasn't a major factor, but it certainly was a factor.

26
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Fair point in regards to Morocco, although with the German fleet I disagree. Tirpitz flat out said he wanted to challenge the UK with the fleet, their Colonies were used as a post-facto justification, but the UK wasn't really worried in regards to Colonialism, but the fact that the Germans were building a fleet directly to challenge their control of the North Sea.

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dandan_noodles1453 WAS AN INSIDE JOB OTTOMAN CANNON CAN'T BREAK ROMAN WALLS•

It's been a while, but the line of argument i heard is that the Germans got their colonies to use as bargaining chips for European continental affairs. The fleet was built for fighting in the North Sea as a way of indirectly covering colonial possessions; with a powerful German fleet in striking distance of England or Northern France, colonies couldn't just be gobbled up at will. If a rival could just nab your colonies while you're unable to reply, they wouldn't be very good bargaining chips. Like I said, it's been a while, and I don't remember the source (might have been sleepwalkers, so make of that what you will).

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shalania•

The Moroccan crises where Germany engineered colonial disputes with France in order to try and gain territory from them certainly didn't help relations

It's kinda tough to describe either Moroccan crisis as "engineered by Germany" when the 1905 one started with French negotiations to take over the Moroccan security forces and the 1911 one started with a French invasion of Moroccan territory, both of which were done without consultation with Germany despite clear treaty rights compelling such consultation (results of Algeciras notwithstanding). In both cases, especially the first one, the French foreign minister at the time came in for criticism from members of his own government for deliberately antagonizing the German government.

Still counts as colonialism and imperialism though, just in a slightly different way. And, of course, doesn't erase the German FMs' attempts to use the crisis to a) weaken the entente and b) gain colonial land in Africa. They were all in the same plague pit; there were no clean hands.

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Compieuterthere was no such thing as Greeks•

France and the UK especially also happened to be two of the biggest Colonial powers.

Depends on how you count though. By population the Dutch colonial population was slightly larger than that of the French colonial empire at the start of WWI. And by area Russia is obviously ahead.

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IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Definitely a true point! I do often see the Entente framed in the manner I framed it as though and I wonder if it comes down to mainly looking at African colonialism, or even just that they were two of the biggest rivals?

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Compieuterthere was no such thing as Greeks•

The Dutch East Indies are often overlooked, France's colonies in comparison included a lot of sparcely populated desert. Also the European populations 6 mln v 40 mln makes France look bigger in lists of overal population. If you look at a map the French empire is obviously very present on the map and the Dutch one is more to the side and also looks smaller being near the equator and next to the big Australia (on a Mercator projection). The Netherlands stuck to neutrality so that they could focus on colonial expansion in what is now Indonesia. Because of this they weren't really involved in the alliance politics.

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Abrytanoperation Barbarossa was leftist infighting•

by area Russia is obviously ahead

Is the area of the home nation usually included in area calculations? Obviously the Russian Empire was huge but the actual non-russian parts not so much.

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Compieuterthere was no such thing as Greeks•

With Russia it’s obviously difficult to decide what to count as it’s colonial empire because of the Russian colonizers outnumbering the ‘indigenous’ population (is that the right term?) in large parts of Siberia. Also, do you count their posessions in eastern europe (Poles, Baltic peoples, Fins?, Ukrainians?). But I think that even then you have most of Siberia, the -stan countries and the caucasus. I’ll check when I’m back at my pc.

Edit: with some quick searching I’ve found that the Russian empire was roughly 36 million sq km. The current european part of Russia is ~4 million sq km. For comparison the empire of France had a size of 11.5 million sq km (1920 size so it should be a bit smaller) with European France being ~.5 million sq km.

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yoshiKUncultured savage since 476 AD•

The Entente Cordiale and Anglo-Russian Entente were designed to smooth out Colonial issues

There is the kind of statement were I can see a book written to defend that, but one probably needs a book to defend it. So, if you want to argue like that, then I think you have to see the allied powers as an oligopoly that tries to keep Germany, or the central powers, out of the great game. I think that approach is neither doomed nor uninteresting, I just don't think it is anywhere close to obvious in more canonical historiography.

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IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

I think you have to see the allied powers as an oligopoly that tries to keep Germany, or the central powers, out of the great game.

I don't really agree, for France, it was less Colonial security from Germany and more security from Germany in Europe by, at the very least, lessening the threat of the UK intervening against France and at best providing another country to fight against Germany. This is the kind of through-line, if I remember right, that Massie argued in Dreadnought as have others.

With the UK it's more complex, but Joll even points out that there was Colonial cooperation and trade between the two countries right up until the war was declared.

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yoshiKUncultured savage since 476 AD•

Unless I misunderstand you, you are arguing against the line I quoted above, and in that case, I agree, for the reasons you outlined. (Which is, what I called "canonical historiography" in my comment.)

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mhl67Trotskyist•

Colonialism didn't play a role in starting the war, like at all.

Colonialism isn't the same thing as imperialism...

-4†
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Imperialism is an underlying idea, while Colonialism is a practice of that idea. They are parts of the same coin and are commonly treated as synonyms. During the era of the First World War Colonialism was the form that Imperialism took.

So I guess I'll rephrase my question then: How did Imperialism play into the start of the First World War in your opinion?

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Hankhank1•

I don't think you should be downvoted for your comment, but the statement "During the era of the First World War Colonialism was the form that Imperialism took" does not line up for the Austrian-Hungarian, Russian, and Serbian experience. For them, imperialism was a differently expressed beast.

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ForChristsSakeNO•

I’m really no expert or even much of an armchair historian, but a couple things come to mind. Was the annexation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the resulting Bosnian crisis not an extension of Austrian imperialism? How about the Italo-Turkish war of 1911 which kicked off the two Balkan Wars, and was fought by Italy for colonial purposes in Libya? Either of the two Moroccan crises which proved to strengthen the Franco-British alliance and alienated Germany, and directly involved colonial power struggles? The rift between Germany and Britain in the first place was caused in large part due to the naval struggle between the two, of which imperialistic/colonial desires played a huge role.

It seems to me that you can only really make the argument that imperialism had nothing to do with the start of WWI if you define that as only the events directly preceding the July Crisis, which may be what you’re defining it here and if so I apologize for misunderstanding.

Again you clearly have a better grasp on this then I do, so I don’t mean to refute your point so much as I aim to bolster my own understanding, because it seems to me that imperialism played a huge role in the start of WWI.

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mhl67Trotskyist•

Imperialism is an underlying idea, while Colonialism is a practice of that idea. They are parts of the same coin and are commonly treated as synonyms. During the era of the First World War Colonialism was the form that Imperialism took.

That's not quite correct. Colonialism is one form of imperialism, but not the only one.

So I guess I'll rephrase my question then: How did Imperialism play into the start of the First World War in your opinion?

I pretty much already said. Pretty much every nation wanted to seize territory from someone.

2
SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956•

Pushshift is currently having an outage at the moment, so removeddit links will likely not work. In addition, the archiving system for archive.is has partially changed. Archives likely still are made, but the URL points to the wrong place for now. Sorry. :(

Snapshots:

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  4. Japan's War Aims - archive.org, archive.today

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23
alis96Functionally illiterate in 3 languages•

This is by far the least funny Snappy comment I’ve seen on this sub. For shame.

61
AllOfMyVotesMy history course is Civilization V•

I guess Snappy couldn't find what it needed online either.

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jlebowski2k316•

Currently making a movie about the Roman Empire. Had to go back and read Livy instead of use the internet, so you know it's going to be really accurate.

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ImpossibleParfait•

Exactly he was alive a really long time ago so obviously every thing he wrote is 100% accurate.

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Changeling_Wil1204 was caused by time traveling Maoists•

It' funny because Livy is online [in latin and english]

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jlebowski2k316•

I would wager most of the "old books" the writer is talking about are also online

3
WittyUsername45•

The popular discourse on WW1 has become so cringe inducingly inundated with simplifications and clichés at this point it's almost unbearable.

Can't help but feel the centenary was a massive wasted opportunity to recontextislise the war on the popular consciousness into something more accurate.

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March-Hare•

At the time I embarked on producing a series of prints to present the war as a narrative. I ended up getting bogged down in exploring the historiography of the war and how (in the UK at least) so much of the popular consciousness is informed by art. I ended up getting completely overwhelmed and it turned out to be my Passchendaele. I did consider applying for arts funding but my work was never going to be sentimental enough to qualify.

That the centenary committee board had as many novelists (Pat Barker and Sebastian Faulks) as actual historians (one of whom I believe eventually resigned) about sums it up.

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IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

That the centenary committee board had as many novelists (Pat Barker and Sebastian Faulks) as actual historians (one of whom I believe eventually resigned) about sums it up.

Yeah it was bad, wasn't Hew Strachan the only historian on it for a bit?

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March-Hare•

As far as I'm aware, yes. Evidently he was outgunned on the "this is an opportunity to learn, not to indulge sentimentality" front. I remember all the newspapers being united in condemning any of his criticisms as him wanting to glorify the war. Meanwhile Faulks would pontificate about how everyday of the war was the first day of the Somme or some guff.

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March-Hare•

...while the Second World War started and ended as a Moral Crusade to save humanity.

That and survival. Though don't mention Britain shipped half it's tanks to Egypt in 1940 to defend the Empire against Roman Empire 2: Electric Boogaloo, when it was just little ol' us fighting off the imminent invasion of Gerry all by ourselves.

The myths of WW1 are compounded by the myths of WW2.

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Kochevnik81•

So honestly

"It was partly for profiteering, partly because empires were starting to lose their stakes abroad"

and

"By the time we got to 1915 or 1916, a lot of the people had realized that the enemy was human just like them."

Sound like some watered-down, warmed over Lenin. Or maybe at the most charitable, echoes of 1930s pacificism. It's all the capitalists and imperialists who wanted war, while the people realized they were all alike (but then failed to have their international revolution somehow).

I feel like the "profiteers" part makes me cringe the most. It's a facile understanding of why wars are fought (hi, worst part of The Last Jedi) - even if some people did good business out of the war, it involved a massive destruction of wealth, often for the explicit aim of winning the war. At worst it hints at various types of conspiracy theories (anti-semitic, anti-central bank, take your pick) that somehow the war was "engineered" by unseen puppetmasters for their personal benefit.

Anywho, I always like checking back to Dan Snow's "10 big myths about World War One debunked" for a historian's listicle of things a lot of people think about World War I that aren't true.

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CosmicPaddlefishBelgium was asking for it being between France and Germany.•

If someone on Reddit could write a lengthy debunk of The Politically Incorrect Guide to History's downplaying of German atrocities in Belgium using internet research, I'm sure people creating feature-length films screened internationally should be able to do so without significant difficulty.

https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/8xliq6/the_politically_incorrect_guide_to_history_is

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BastMatt95•

Is (Curtis and Elton 1989 ) "Blackadder goes Forth"?

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IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

It is! Grant’s book is mostly about how different genres and bands have portrayed the war in their music (and also how it does or does not play into the dominant national themes of the war in their respective countries). it’s a more transnational study and looks at music from the UK, US, France, Germany, and a few other places.

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BastMatt95•

Sounds interesting!

2
HistoryLord•

“I couldn’t research online; I had to go to the Imperial War Museum and to France, and find books out of print for decades.”

Indy Naidell and the Great War team literally spent four years of their lives cataloguing and teaching the events of World War I, WEEK BY WEEK, on YouTube. One of the best resources for learning about World War I out there, in my opinion.

4
Thebunkerparodie•

"I couldn't research online"? What? The great war youtube channel exist you know?

4
MeSmeshFruit•

How can people be so naive to degrade real complex history like WW2 into fucking Star Wars...

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-3
IlluminatiRexOPHoly Roman President Charles V. Johnson •

Where have I critiqued the film? I have critiqued the words of one of its writers (and also an article from Variety where they interviewed that writer).

Also, the whole point of this sub is to be pedantic and "achtually". Peep rule 4!

3