Source
r/Pathfinder2e•
mal2

Quicker potion drinking

Core Rules

Is there any way to reduce the number of actions required to draw and drink potions? As far as I can tell, it takes at least two actions to drink a potion, and sometimes more. My players often hesitate to use potions in combat because of how many actions it uses up. Personally, I'd like to see them used more often.

As far as the action economy goes, I think this is the usual sequence:

  1. (Free: remove a hand from a two-handed weapon, or drop whatever is in your off hand if you don't have a hand free)
  2. One Action: Draw a potion from a belt pouch or bandolier (or two actions to draw from a backpack)
  3. One Action: Drink the potion
  4. (One action: re-grip your two handed weapon or pick up your shield from the ground where you dropped it)

As I understand it Quick Draw does not help when drinking potions, nor does Quick Bomber. You can put up to 8 potions in a bandolier, but that doesn't help you draw them faster, since potions are not tools.

Did I miss anything?

Posted Jan 22, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

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ItshardbeingabossGM•

No, 2 Actions is as fast as it gets.

This is why 2-Handed Weapons/Full Shields are such a trade-off. You can use 1-Handed Weapons with a Buckler to not have to worry about the drawback... but you're doing less damage and you've got a worse Shield.

One recommendation is to use a Bastard Sword, you can start with it in two hands and go down to one if you need a potion. Then you can wait to re-grip until you have a window. But its not perfect by any means. Still a tradeoff to be made

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Jenos•

No matter what, potions cost 2 actions to drink Outside of the Gloves of Storing, no item exists to enable 1-action potion drinking (assuming you have a free hand). Its frustrating, but it is the way it is.

Its even more frustrating if you have something in two hands. Your action flow is correct - it does cost an interact action to re-grip a 2H weapon (see page 273 for the table where this is explained).

However, the only viable solution I've found thus far to get potion drinking to one action is a familiar. A familiar with manual dexterity can, with one action, retrieve a potion. And with its second interact action, feed it to you:

You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed an elixir only to a creature within reach that is either willing or unable to prevent you from doing so. (CRB, page 546)

So a player with a familiar can spend one action to command their familiar, then have their familiar spend the two actions to feed a potion to you. Still costs many actions, but at least you've offloaded those costs to your familiar.

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tribonRAGM•

No item yet exists to allow one-action potion drinking.

Gloves of Storing: Am I a joke to you?

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Jenos•

Fair enough, I didn't know about those. Though they are uncommon, which means it could be very difficult to get.

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tribonRAGM•

That's pretty much correct, though abilities and magic items can allow you to draw a potion as a few action, such as being a Gourd Leshy or using Gloves of Storing.

Edit: You can also Command a familiar to draw the potion and feed it to you, making it a single action for you

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moonshineTheleocat•

If you have a free hand available, you can hold a potion in your hand, or any items you wish to use quickly. For those with bucklers this does not impeede their ability to use it.

If a character has a prehensile tail that is capable of holding objects, that technically works as well. The use of a Mage hand can hold a potion, tough it still requires two actions.

Given this is Pathfinder this is a pretty common trick in first edition. Just not widely used.

Keep in mind this poses a risk that you may need to drop it on short notice.

Finally, I should note that healing was never intended to be done in precarious situations, and has always been a risky, inefficient endeavor in Pathfinder. you were always intended to back off to recuperate, which gives your enemy a chance to punish the opening and vice versa. Or to be done when you get a brief moment of respite. And there are more means to reduce damage efficiently or to prevent yourself from being hit versus healing through it.

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Wizard_Level_1•

Considering that there are feats that exist to make drawing a weapon and throwing it one action instead of two. You might be able to convince your DM to allow you to make a general feat that lets you draw a potion and drink it as part of the same action. The feat should probably have some kind of requirement, like quick draw or a certain dex score, in order to take it.

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ReynAetherwindt•

Camelbak

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TahntedOctopus•

I was under the impression that a bandolier would eliminate the drawing item action. Considering you can use a bandolier to draw a set of healers tool as part of the action of using them, as it says in the bandolier description, then why not for potions? Same difference and it's vague enough to imply anything that can fit in a bandolier (so basically potion sized items or smaller)

A bandolier holds up to eight items of light Bulk within easy reach and is usually used for alchemical items or potions. If you are carrying or stowing a bandolier rather than wearing it around your chest, it has light Bulk instead of negligible. A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them

Key note "can be dedicated to a full set of tools" which can be taken differently. A set of combat tools for example could imply mutagens, potions, poisons, throwing knives, or other such things.

I mean it even says it's used for alchemic items and potions, so I think it's safe to say the bandolier explains at least twice in its description that it essentially removes the draw item action from potions, as long as you bandolier has 8 or less items of L bulk. Could be 2 potions 2 poisons 4 knives. That's a set of combat tools lol

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lordzygosRogue•

"A full set of tools" is a game term referring to the various tools that you can purchase. You can't just declare whatever 8 items you want to be "tools" and get the Quick Draw feat for free.

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TahntedOctopus•

Well still raw there's nothing that says it WONT work. The bandolier itself specifically mentions alchemical items and POTIONS. otherwise why bother mentioning them specifically at all

RAW it should because a healers tools is 1 bulk. And the bandolier says 8 items of L bulk or less. Currently raw a healers kit can't fit inside a bandolier. So either it works on both my examples or none of it, meaning no bandolier tool kits

-3†
lordzygosRogue•

RAW it works with toolkits because it literally says it does. Bulk isn't weight, it is a combination of weight, size, and general unwieldiness. A healer's kit might be 1 bulk in one big box, but get rid of the box and the items inside might only be 8 L total. Even going by weight, we can just as easily say the Box the kit is in is 2L, meaning it works for the bandolier.

Well still raw there's nothing that says it WONT work

That's a silly argument and you know it. By your logic you can do all kinds of crazy things because the rules don't specifically say you cant.

The bandolier itself specifically mentions alchemical items and POTIONS. otherwise why bother mentioning them specifically at all

Because you CAN put potions and alchemical items in there, and draw them in 1 action instead of 2 from a backpack. Thats why it is mentioned. You can not use the bandolier to draw potions or any other item as a free action/part of the action to use it. Think it through logically: Why would rogues have a feat that lets them do this for weapons if they can just use a bandolier??

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TahntedOctopus•

Well you just said it works with toolkits cuz it says it does. It also says it works with alchemical mitems and potions, so you're sorta arguing my point for me. Then argued against more specific text of a bandolier that you forgot about. It mentions you can draw the items as part of the action to use them.

Now, maybe you can't use it for weapons and that's fine, cuz quick draw is for weapons, but rogues are bs and everyone knows that lol. But that's not what this is about.

This is about the item specifying that it can be quick draw for alchemical items and potions along with tool kits, of which the actual quick draw feat does not work for alchemical items and potions. It may work with bombs, but those are bombs and there's a specific alchemist fest for bombs so it probably wouldn't. So that only leaves all other alchemical items and potions.

A bandolier holds up to eight items of light Bulk within easy reach and is usually used for alchemical items or potions. If you are carrying or stowing a bandolier rather than wearing it around your chest, it has light Bulk instead of negligible. A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them.

Doesn't matter how you word it, a healers kit is 1 bulk.

This kit of bandages, herbs, and suturing tools is necessary for Medicine checks to Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, or Treat Wounds. Expanded healer’s tools provide a +1 item bonus to such checks. When you carry the tools from place to place, you keep many of the components handy on your person, in pockets or bandolier.

I don't see a box anywhere in that, just the word kit, which includes everything in it.

So now all that's left is a bandolier working with kits and alchemical items and potions. There is no quick draw feat for non bombs and no quick draw for potions and no quick draw for kits, therefore the bandolier IS the quick draw for these items through process of elimination and its very own description listed above.

So now don't you go try bending words and definitions, cuz whether it's in a box or not, it's not listed therefore it's irrelevant and would still weigh 1B. Which then you may refer to previous comments about either all non bombs and potions work because the kit works or none of it works. BTW bandolier is slightly vague enough in its own descriptions so that you may include non bombs and potions.

A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them.

Key words"such as healers tools" which means you may can get away with non bombs and potions. Now nobody has a special benefit built into a class, happy?

And you are right about the weapon part.

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mal2OPGM•

That seems to stretch the rules-as-written further than I'd like. The text seems pretty clear to me that you can put "a full set of tools, such as healer's tools" into the bandolier and get the benefit of draw and use as a single action. That would obviously also apply to other things labeled "Tools" like Alchemists' Tools, or Thieves' Tools.

I don't read that as extending to potions or elixirs, though. For one thing, it would pretty seriously step on the toes of the Alchemist's Quick Bomber feat.

Is there anywhere in the text that refers to a collection of potions as "combat tools", or is that your own invention?

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TahntedOctopus•

Why would it have specifically mentioned potions and alchemical items if it couldn't have worked then? It's not like people use potions that much anyway. They're super expensive and not too common

Yes it was my own invention but look above, there's no reason it WON'T work this way raw

Why would the item specifically mention any items at all if it wouldn't work with them? If specifically mentions alchemical items and potions. By raw that means it won't work with healers tools because they are 1 bulk, not 8 L bulk items.

So either it works on both examples or none.

-2
Jenos•

Except when it mentions the alchemical items, its a fluff piece. It literally only says: "usually used for alchemical items or potions." Thats it - nothing about changing the action cost to retrieve items.

But the only ruling it says is: "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them." That's pretty explicitly clear. If you dedicate all 8 slots of the bandolier to a specific tool, you get the benefit of one-action to use the tool. It doesn't care one bit about the bulk of the tools - all it cares is that it is a tool.

Why would it apply to tools and not the alchemical items previously mentioned? Likely because the only other way to have potions at easy access is a belt pouch. If you have potions in a backpack, it would take two actions to retrieve, not one. So it mentions bandolier to remind that.

Further, its pretty clear that RAI, it wasn't intended to get around that. The big feat is Quick Bomber - if alchemical items could be 0 action retrieval from a bandolier, the Quick Bomber feat is literally worthless. You can easily wear double bandoliers and just draw 16 bombs and strike in one action for a grand total of 2 sp. That hardly seems intended, nor is there any text to support that it would be.

 

 

That said, it probably is a reasonable houserule to allow bandoliers to only work with potions/elixirs, but you have to be clear it is a houserule.

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TahntedOctopus•

In another comment I mentioned how does non bombs, such as mutagens, and potions sound? Now quick bomber and quick draw aren't replaced and this is a more specific situation?

Also kits weigh 1B meaning they technically wouldn't work on a bandolier that only holds 8 light items

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mal2OPGM•

I'd kind of like it to work this way, but I don't think it's the rules, either as-written or as-intended. If bandoliers allow you to draw items out of them for free, then you'll make a whole bunch of feats basically irrelevant (at least Quick Draw, Quick Bomber, and Poison Weapon off the top of my head). If that was the intent, then the authors need to call that out explicitly someplace, not leave it up to reading between the lines.

Bandoliers are still a useful place to keep potions -- digging things out of a backpack is two actions after all, and there's only so much room in belt pouches. I also expect we'll see some sort of "Quick Quaffing" feat at some point in the future.

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TahntedOctopus•

I believe I said non bombs and non weapons

Poison weapon is something else also.

Quick bomber is only bombs, not mutagens or potions

Quick draw is weapons, not mutagens or potions

Poison weapon is a very specific very weak poison of only 1 type. It is not all poisons such as lethargy or other ones

Also this is paizo we're talking about. Us players and gms will ALWAYS have to do half of the work figuring things out.

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rdp93•

In the intro to episode 19 or 20 (iirc) of the Roll for Combat Podcast, GM Stephen Glicker addresses this. He talked to one of the devs that confirmed that bandolier can NOT be used to eliminate action cost of equipping potions.

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TahntedOctopus•

That's nice but they should really errata that then. Paizo is known for saying things and either not actually implementing or publishing incorrectly worded things. If they didn't want it to be used on potions, why specifically include potions in the description if it's the same amount of actions to get it out of a bag as it is to use with a bandolier? Why leave bandolier up to interpretation. Just like how they somehow missed that they gave wizards a first level feat, until they officially errataed it, wizards had it until they were forced to rebuild once errata officially came out.

If they want to implement it correctly, then change the rules instead of only saying something. Legally, conversations mean little to nothing without more to back them up.

Paizo sometimes dont even cross reference things and publish contradictory content. They still have contradictory content in core right now that they're just going to entirely ignore until errata someday.

But ya, legally, verbal exchanges don't really mean anything until they publish it as errata. "oh no something is too op, I'm just gonna say it doesn't work that way" well then how about they actually MEAN it and add it to their long list of other errata they're still working on

Not yelling or anything, and I do actually hope it to eventually make it to errata to clarify because they've already done like a whole page of clarifications or so in their errata.

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stevesy17•

if it's the same amount of actions to get it out of a bag as it is to use with a bandolier

Because it's not. Using it from a bag is 3 actions, using it from a bandolier is 2.

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TahntedOctopus•

Fine, your unused pockets because most things are too big for pockets and why would potions be in a backpack anyway.

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yosarian_redditBard•

There's nothing in the bandolier description that says it reduces the cost of pulling out items (like potions), with the exception of the specifically mentioned 'using it to carry tools' situation. So there's no errata needed, the tools are clearly indicated in the book, and potions are not part of them.

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TahntedOctopus•

"such as"

It only specifically mentions tools as an examples.

"A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."

"can be" which means it doesn't have to be tools

"such as healers tools" also meaning it doesn't HAVE to be just tools

It also does specifically mention alchemical items and potions, first line

"A bandolier holds up to eight items of light Bulk within easy reach and is usually used for alchemical items or potions"

Btw a healer kit is 1 bulk meaning it wouldn't actually fit into a bandolier, which holds 8 items of light bulk. If you wanna insist it can't be used on potions then I'm going to insist it can't be used on healers tools by raw, which means the item shouldn't exist since it doesn't work on anything then

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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