State of the Subreddit 02/03/2020 - Rule updates and changes
Posted Mar 2, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC
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Atrocity Olympics is like an alternate title for the Hunger Games
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Please ban the "Invade Russia in winter" memes.
It's not limited to Hitler, shut it, we know Napoleon did it too.
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Neither did, actually
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Neither did succeed*
-3†
No neither of them invaded in the winter. Both in june.
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Look, it doesn't matter when they started, the point is that they both found themselves in Russian in winter, that's the exploitable part of the story.
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Not correct. Hitler *wanted * to invade in June, but because of how pathetic Mussolini was, Hitler needed to invade Greece so Italy would not be overrun. So, the invasion was postponed until Winter. Read Fascism: A Warning, by Madeleine Albright, she talks about it. The operation for it was started in June, but it didn’t really manage to kick off until later.
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They are banned for historical inaccuracy
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So did the swedish
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Big brain solution: Ban all memes that are made by people who have not sworn allegiance to our lord and savior mod Delta
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Wait but then we’re the dictatorship
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Exactly
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Rule 6 will be expanded to prohibit the Atrocity/Genocide Olympics. It is truly disheartening to see users trying to defend Hitler or Stalin by using the war-crimes of the other as if both of them aren’t monsters in their own way. This expansion is similar to rule 12 in r/History and will prohibit comparing atrocities, whataboutism and arguing about which evil dictator was the worst.
I have concerns about this.
My primary historical interest is Mesoamerican history, and something which becomes obvious with even a basic amount of knowledge about Mesoamerican history is the amount of misconceptions and myths which most people have in regards to Mesoamerican societies like the Aztec and Maya, usually in reference to sacrifices.
Would this rule prevent me from correcting people and disputing misconceptions in relation to stuff like Aztec sacrificial practices, especially since it often relies on me drawing comparsions to other examples of religious killings? It's not a genocide or singular atrocity but I've seen people describe it as such, so it could be argued me disputing that would be genocide denalism... Which is IMO an issue with a blanket zero tolerance rule on genocide denali: such a rule categorically has to disallow any disputing something being a genocide no matter how valid the arguments are, since otherwise you have to accept that there's debatable limits on the term which then opens up potential arguments against specific genocides not being genocides, like if the Armenian Genocide of American colnization count or not count since they (at least the latter, i'm not well informed on the former) mostly relied on displacement rather then murder, for example.
Anyways, i'm not really trying to argue against the genocide denalism rule itself so much as wanting to make sure that me correcting myths and misconceptions about sacrifices and such won't get caught up in Rule 6: I can't see any sort of logically foolproof way they wouldn't be, unless you all as mods are just also going to be factoring in if the post is good faith or bad faith and giving leeway based on that and my comments on sacrifice and Aztec adminstration would get a pass as a result.
For an example here is a prior example of me doing this sort of thing on the sub.
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Thanks for the input and you raise a good point. I now see how the way it is currently constructed can hinder legitimate historical analysis and discussion. Stating that we are prohibiting "comparing atrocities" is quite dubious.
The mod team and I will work on a re-write of the expansion to make sure it specifically targets people downplaying atrocities rather than stopping proper discussion
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"Comparing atrocities that hinder intellectual construction"
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Hey, fam. Just read your example there and you’re amazing. On behalf of myself and the other folks over at r/DankPrecolumbianMemes and elsewhere trying to increase public education about the ancient Americas, shoutout to you for correcting misconceptions about Mesoamerica on this sub, which has a bad habit of spreading misinformation on the region. Keep doing what you’re doing. It’s impressive and important.
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There really is a sub reddit for everything and it’s so wholesome to see every piece of history noticed.
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Bruh that was so well reasoned and presented. Top notch my dude and most excellent call out. Thanks for helping spread the know to neophytes such as myself. You da real MVP.
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Aight I'm saving that link tho. I don't know if you go to AskHistorians but you'd make some great FAQ-worthy content there.
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I do browse it and occasionally make replies, but Mesoamerican stuff doesn't come up much and when it does it's uisually something basic i'm better off linking to prior replies about.
Anyways I'll try to reply to your request for more info when I get time, feel free to PM me and prod me about it if I don't do so after a while.
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I think that was someone else, I don't remember asking for info, thanks anyway!
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I feel like an important clarification the mods could make would be to distinguish genocide as unique to modern warfare, post-1850s while permitting content that uses of genocide for the sake of hyperbole. Wholesale slaughter wasn’t as anomalous, and it would keep threads from dissolving into arguments over semantics.
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Please ban Japan getting nuked memes. It’s not that it’s offensive, it’s just saying the same thing over and over again just isn’t funny.
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idgaf about the rule changes, but who thinks that weekend is friday and saturday?
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People who mostly care about doing stuff in evening that requires them to stay up late.
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People in different time zones who don't look up the time before they post/report a meme
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I heard Jewish people do and so instead of doing their sabbath on Sunday, they do it on satuday.
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Jewish days go night to day, rather than day to night. So shabbat (sabbath) goes from sundown on Friday, through Saturday, to sundown on Saturday. So Israel observes a Friday-Saturday weekend, and I'm pretty sure traditionally Muslim countries do this as well
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Most arabic/Muslim countries have their weekends in friday and Saturday
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Add the same tired "American Shotguns in the trenches" memes to the 9.1 ban list.
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it´s honestly the worst of all jokes since it´s neither funny anymore nor was it ever really historically accurate (weel only in very specific occasions). i would love it to be banned.
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But you can still say that one dictator was bad without necessarily defending another. For example Hitler is worse than say Franco.
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Exactly! I am not defending any dictator by pointing out how others were even worse
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bUt PINoChEt dID nOtHInG wROnG
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AnD mOhAmMeD rEzA sHaH pAhLaVi WaS gReAt.
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Ban me If you want but if you really think Stalin was as bad as Hitler, it kind of downplays Hitlers victims. Stalin killed people because he wanted to secure his power as dictator and indirectly (If we are talking about the holodomor) because of stupid decisions. Hitler killed people because they were a certain kind of people. Stalin didn't plan the extinction of the Ukrainian people. Saying that Stalin was as bad as Hitler is therefore Nazi apologetic.
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It depends on your view of the morality of their actions and how that comes into play when deciding who’s “worse” is it the why that makes the dictator worse than others? The who? Or the numbers? And I hold that killing millions because their Jewish or disabled etc is on par not worse than killing millions because of political differences and securing your political power.
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Counter point: once you reach a certain body count who is “morally better/worse” is irrelevant. Even without the Holodomor you still have Stalin’s purges. Mass murder of the innocent is mass murder of the innocent. Hitler and Stalin were both horrible people, and one can say either was a terrible person without automatically defending the other. Additionally in order to be a “Nazi Apologetic” one would have to actually defend them, which most people who condemn the Stalin do not actually do. This isn’t either or, you can legitimately say both were terrible people.
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Can we have a warring states contest?
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but we just had a US Civil War one :P
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I like civil war.
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My dictator wanna be has political asylum in Argentina.
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You know if everyone was a nihilist this problem would be non-existent. Along with the species.
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Things would be more simple.
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Is it really that big of an issue?
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So many Pro or anti communist memes comments end up like this
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99% of people sort by Hot so I think these numbers are being exaggerated by the people commenting who are much more likely to sort by new.
The upvote/downvote works pretty well.
I do like the no WW2 on weekends since it forces everyone to diversify and it doesn’t prohibit them totally.
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Can we get rid of happy/sad ____ noises they’re so stupid
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They are banned actually. Under rule 9 in extended rules. Report them for breaking R9 if you see one
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Anybody know of a history meme sub with less (or no) rules
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If you honestly need to defend a leader by comparing kill counts instead of actually finding compelling and well thought out arguments please walk away from your screen and walk into the nearest body of water
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Dictator X is better then Dictator Y and that's why me jerking off to Dictator X is fine you fucking (Dictator Y's Ideology) and your also probably a (Group genocided by Dictator X)
Then follower of Dictator Z shows up and claims the moral high ground(even though he follows the same ideology of Dictator X)
Meanwhile, people of (Ideology W) be watchin’ how it all burns out of control.
(Ideology W) being a branching out of (Ideology U), the people of which are fucking tired of being confused with (Ideology V)?
(Ideology V) getting mad at (Ideology W) because they think (Ideology W) is just a branching out of (Ideology V) when actually (Ideology V) is a branching out itself of (Ideology 9)
I WUV U?
Nah, Dictator X ideology was not true Dictator Z ideology, he was a traitor of the cause. Also Dictator Z would have created an utopia if it was not for the evil Dictator Y intervention, a modern day Dictator Z would be a hero! All hail dictator Z!
You're banned from r/DicatorZfans
I need this sub to exist, upvote if you are a true dictator Z fan
I prefer invader Z, I mean you just can’t beat GIR as a sidekick
Cincinnatus best dictator. Prove me wrong
Imagine doing all that only to have one of the most mediocre cities named after you.
Technically Cincinnati was named after Washington because he was called the American Cincinnatus.
Potato tomato
[deleted]
The classical Greek tyrants would like a word with you
Tyrant didn't have the same meaning of today. There were good tyrants.
That's what I mean just as dictator had a different meaning as well
Good tyrants. Seems to be an oxymoron considering it actually did mean the same thing. I may be wrong tho
Impossible
Stalin is better than Hitler and that’s why me jerking off to Stalin is fine you fucking capitalist and your also probably a peasant
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The Holodomr had nothing to do with the west, and more to do with Stalin’s cruelty. To be fair I’m not sure if it counts as genocide as he wasn’t killing them out of ethnic hatred, but murder is still murder. That’s in addition to his purges. Stalin was a monster and deserves his reputation as such.
Sorry in advance for the wall of text. Feel free to read or not... Ill read your wall of text if you hit me with one though, promise!
I'll have to read up on it some more. This was the specific event I had in mind when I commented. IIRC from some things I've read, there's pretty good evidence that it was at the very least unintentional. Some scholars think that Stalin's regime enacted some pretty heavy repressions of the Ukrainian soviets in the area. The apologist stance that I've seen is that it's a modern cold-war construction to try and blame the USSR for a tragedy that happened within its borders. The communists that support this theory maintain that there's evidence that in fact the soviets mobilized as much provisions from all across the union to try and help the Ukrainian soviets. Additionally, due to blocuses from neighboring states, the locals weren't able to trade with them for machinery and foodstuffs which worsened the already massive two season famine.
I'm also wondering if there aren't modern political motives on the Ukraine's and Nato's part in trying to stick it to modern Russia by reminding them of "crimes" from a past but parallel regime. But that's kinda tinfoil stuff on my part that isn't currently backed by any hard facts. Seems plausible at least.
At any rate Ima double check my sources before making up my mind. Alos, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that many things about the soviet union have been mischaracterized and even downright made up. On the other hand, some stuff is true (like gulags) but whether you find them attrocious or whatever depends on your political compass and on how you chose to judge those actions visa-a-vis their place in history.
Like for example, at almost the same time as the Holodomor was happening, the US was going through almost the exact same thing because of their fervent adherence to freemarket capitalism. To the point where millions of dollars worth of food was being burned and destroyed to try and influence market forces, meanwhile, thousands to millions of citizens were starving in the streets. During the great depression (that affected the world over remember), millions of people lost their job, and surely countless died because of the abject poverty they fell into. Similar criticisms can be made about the healthcare system, and even slavery and segregation that was still ongoing into the 20th century. Other european powers were celebrating the olympics with nazi directors while also destroying the environment and the peoples of their colonies. The netherlands comes to mind, as does france.
Personally, I'm willing to accept that the soviet union did some fucked up shit. I'd like to believe that they were a super lit communist utopia, but probably, like many other states, they did some fucked up shit. However, I'm not willing to condemn the entire experiment and say that it was as bad or even as close to as bad as Hitler and the nazis. Nor am I willing to say that they were worse than many western countries. At the very worst, they were as bad.
(im speaking in absolutes, but I'm still 100% open to your interpretations).
I think that these types of "debates" or whatever is why a rule banning "whataboutism" is harmful. Whataboutism is just a fallacy that is pointed out when people are being attacked for the things that they were attacking others of doing. You can't argue from a standpoint of "we did it better" or "were the best" and not expect someone to say "yeah but what about this". That's a fair argument at that point, no?