Posted Apr 7, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC
Translation: These 10th gen Intel chips run so hot if we didn't use liquid metal these things would blow up
I'm afraid that's what it may come down to. If it weren't so, they'd offer it also for their own AMD-products like the new Renoir-based ones. They don't (yet) – which says a lot already.
It's not that, Asus is always screwing over amd models. I have a zephyrus 502 AMD model and it's missing some stuff that the Intel models come with like individualized light up keyboards. The AMD only comes with white LEDs.
Yup, it's called the OEM-factor™. MSI is known to stick to it too. Wrote about it a while ago, just days ago;
Amd needs to release 7nm apus as soon as possible to be truly competitive in laptops.
AMD needs nothing, OEMs do.
Since Ryzen, AMD always had very comparable and quite competitive parts with strong APUs and powerful graphics, which would've made outstanding powerful yet efficient laptops with very good graphics (without the need for any dedicated graphics anyway) using their integrated graphics – still, they ain't used nor built anyway for whatever superficial reasons anyway.
Design-win after design-win AMD (so they say…) is announcing with their Raven Ridge or Picasso APUs and people are hoping for decent AMD-mobiles every time again when really good laptops are shown (only on stage for the press), in decent setups with decent panels, keyboards, batteries and powerful configurations – just to have those very design-wins being ebbed away anyway, with·out being build in any greater scale nor configurations, of course.
Yet, no-one ever seems to be at a loss for an answer on why there ain't any decent AMD-mobiles and why those which are built (if any) are always have to come in the shittiest condition possible, compared to any Intel-laptop.
Either it's that AMD can't deliver, then it's since the OEMs are cancelling their products even prior to shipping it and whatnot. However, the flimsiest of all excuses, is, when OEMs are telling us that there would be no greater demand on them and that people would ask for Intel-parts instead, of course! Of course no-one wants those shitty configs with subpar display-panels, keyboards, smallest batteries, subpar cases and a lack of any decent interface-connectors – if the good stuff is only equipped with Intel.
We're lying to ourselves if we think AMD would be the core of the problem here and the very reason why there ain't any decent AMD-laptops since roughly the 2000s, they ain't and they never were – but OEMs being paid for not building those AMD ones are. It's that the OEMs/ODMs are all a bunch of scurvy cowards who are getting paid for doing so.
tl;dr: AMD bringing their APUs on 7nm won't change a bit, as it isn't the problem here, and it never was.
The answer is quite obvious actually. AMD has been the budget brand for a long time to consumers. Takes a lot to change that mentality. Therefore OEMs still put AMD in cheaper laptops.
The other massive reason is engineering time and sku keeping. Intel helps OEMs engineer their laptops and collaborates intensely with them. Intel laptops are 80% of the market, and a higher share of high end laptops. That means you can support more intel SKUs. You cannot do the same with a laptop that sells 1/5 as much. Each new SKU is more cost without the volume.
7nm APUs are starting to change it, but breaking the consumer mentality will take a long time, and AMD hasn't stepped up OEM engineering efforts as far as I know.
Yeah the thing that makes it seem dubious is that laptop makers often cut corners to save cost where possible when it comes to under the hood hardware - so I really struggle to believe they would try to add additional cooling capabilities it wasn't because the hardware requires it
It's more likely that Intel actually asked for it or even demanded so for newer parts even being shipped to OEMS and sold to them afterwards in the first place.
ASUS announced to ship their 10th Gen Intel Core-based laptops to feature Liquid-metal as an exclusive and ASUS' upcoming Comet Lake-H-based RoG-laptops will exclusively feature Liquid-metal instead of thermal compound as TIM (thermal interface material).
Up to 20° temperature-difference
According to ASUS' own announcement, it is planned to equip given upcoming models of the Republic of Gamers-brand such as the Zephyrus- and the Strixx-series with Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut, which is told to lower the temperatures between 10°C–20°.
While they're just starting to equip given laptops with liquid-metal, they already said to want roll out the feature to all of their premium-lines of their Republic of Gamers-brand.
Only for Intel-systems as of now
However, as of now none AMD-based line is planned to be equipped with liquid-metal, not even the new Asus ROG Zephyrus G14. So no liquid-metal for any Renior-based systems – it's Intel-exclusive as of now.
Note: The news features a nice video of how it is done, took them +1 year to ready LM-applying for production.
^^PS: ^^It's ^^just ^^for ^^the ^^purpose ^^of ^^informing ^^- ^^and ^^maybe ^^for ^^any ^^related ^^discussions.
derbauer did apply liquid metal on his 4900HS chip , and performance went up like 5%+ ... Just by using better compound... from 4100 to 4300 cinebench R20 scores . 3700x is like 4700 points. No undervolting , no tweaking , just liquid metal... Renoir is dope.
It seems extreme to HAVE to use it for mainstream Intel processors however...
It seems extreme to HAVE to use it for mainstream Intel processors however...
Well, those come with an extreme power-draw too. … and since Intel can't even solder properly anymore, uhm …
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Doesn't make me wonder at all. Liquid metal behaves a lot like quicksilver during applying, so you need some kind of device/technique to demolish the LM's very surface tension (to liquify it) just enough, to apply it evenly across the whole die in any uniform manner – at least if you want to apply it quickly and automated via machinery where time is money, right?
They ain't applying it by hand but using a stupid (yet well adjusted machine) within seconds.
Hopefully they avoid "big blob of thermal paste that goes everywhere when you press down on it", because liquid metal on the motherboard would not be a good day.
One of my previous laptops had so much thermal paste that it was almost leaking onto the motherboard. It took a while for me to clean it up to reapply paste.
One of my previous laptops had so much thermal paste that it was almost leaking onto the motherboard. It took a while for me to clean it up to reapply paste.
Like Apple, who are famous for drowning chips in paste for no reason, and a bad one too. The thermal compound drys up within weeks to single-digit months, just to have the exact contrary effect – isolate the chip from the heatsink.
Result: The chip grills itself in no time.
The more the merrier, right? One of the most common cause for chip-failure on Apple-hardware.
As long as you get specific enough you can patent anything!
Eluktronics has been doing this on their laptops for a while. It’s been a $50 option
Bet this was done on a if-asked-per-customer-basis, right? Likely applied per hand.
ASUS now applies it during mass production in their factories. Different story already.
It’s still nothing revolutionary since they weren’t first and it’s not their idea. I understand ASUS wants all the credit but this is nothing new and I wouldn’t be shocked if they only include this on their premium models. They throw around the words “exclusive” but really it’s not
You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to implement some things in mass production, that are trivial to do in small scale or as a one time thing. I'm not saying whether this is or is not the case in this instance, but there is quite a jump between an individual doing something on a custom build, and a company doing something in mass production.
Yup, can confirm …
Having applied liquid-metal by myself, it actually is outrageous troublesome to apply it while being evenly distributed across the whole die by hand alone – now imagine what a nightmare it is for technicians to adjust actual applying of LM via machinery in large numbers during serial-production uniformly across every given laptop. Phew!
It actually is quite revolutionary since they seem to be the first applying it en masse on standard-laptops for being shipped to usual customers.
No-one disputes them not having it invented, but credit for this going mass where credit is due. They're the first applying it on mass-production.
If they can mass produce laptops with liquid metal and without its usual reliability concern then I would say that's very revolutionary. Not only it's a difficult process, it can also pave the way for liquid metal to become more common and eventually the standard on laptops.
Can someone explain how it’s gonna even work dont you have to change and reapply liquid metal every 3 to 4 months?
In my experience, only time you would have to 'change' the LM is if you use too much/too little and it wicks out (in the case of too much) or it doesn't make proper contact between die and IHS (or cooler).
I never actually had to change LM mind you, I can just reuse it. Unlike thermal paste.
I haven't changed the LM in my HD7970 in over a year and it's doing fine.
No, that's only if the contact area is copper and you only have to replace it once, 1 month after the initial application.
Usual paste aka thermal compound/grease, thus thermal interface material is needed to be re-pasted/re-done every once in a while yes, but not so liquid metal – that's why it's used.
Simply put, when the heatspreader's and heatsink's surface is coated (e.g. nicked et al.) sufficient enough to prevent the LM from pitting and affecting the materials itself, LM holds way, ways longer than just months.
Also simply pu, thermal compound on the other hand, especially the low-quality stuff OEMs use to apply ever since (polymer-based; not silver- or copper-based), is the shittiest of all. Since as soon as the humectant (agent) is evaporated (either silicone oil or parabens are often used on those; takes only weeks to months, depending on use-case), the bulking agent/filler which often consists of plastics is completely dried up and the remainder is nothing but (micro-) plastic-powder backed into some kind of cake, which then acts the exact contrary of what it was supposed to do: Isolating the heatspreader and heatsink from each other thermally like a rubber in-between– instead of absorb and passing through the heat.
The aftermath of the thermal compound is often, that the underlying chip will literally roast itself and sooner or later just dies, since the IC can't give off any heat through the also already boiling heatspreader (for the heatsink to transport it off) as heatsink and chip is literally encapsulated into the awfully bad conductor plastic is. Result: The chip dies as it grills itself.
^PS: ^One ^may ^forgive ^the ^potentially ^significant ^simplification ^of ^given ^circumstances ^for ^the ^purpose ^of ^exemplification.
perhaps I should change my thermal paste sometime. Haven't done that in 3-4 years...
Jesus, I haven't ever changed mine, that came on the CPU when I bought it 9 years ago. I've only recently begun noticing problems with the temps...
However, I've read elsewhere that thermal paste can last for 5-10 years, but that may have been all lies.
how much $$ did the 8auer get for this ?
Anyone post actual thermal performance. To me it looks like different kind thermal paste.
Not really apples to apples to der8huer did try liquid metal in the new g14 with a ryzen cpu.
imo, saw about a 5c drop on my gpu.
Definitely thermal paste you can tell from the reflectiveness
Would definitely like some thermal performance numbers
Doesn't liquid metal ages really poorly?
I was under the impression that liquid metal was not an option (or at least not ideal) for laptops because if it was subjected to a lateral impact the metal could squish/bead out from between the cpu die and heat sink.
Am I just mistaken? I think I remember this from a GN video. It sort of makes logical sense to me but on the other hand there could be enough surface tension/surface wetting that it's not an issue.
It's almost like Asus had no other choice in order to keep the new Intel chips in the thermal envelope with Asus' cooling designs.
That's exactly how I read this
They could've used Ryzen 4900HS instead. Better performance, substantially lower power usage.
4900HS would probably win even using mayonnaise
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