Would you buy an iOS product if you weren't able to jailbreak it?
I know I wouldn't.
Posted Mar 31, 2011, 1:00 PM UTC
88291
Yes, i would. It was fundamental until ios 3, but from then on, it got less and less necessary.
62
I don't think jailbreaking is a necessity anymore since iOS 3. I used to jailbreak before but nowadays I don't see the point anymore.
43
SBSettings makes it worth it, for me. Hands down.
19
Until SBSettings and BiteSMS become part of the native OS, jailbreaking is absolutely a necessity.
11
I'm getting by just fine without either of those, so I would hardly call them a necessity.
9
Have you used BiteSMS? Simply put, it's amazing.
Until you've tried it, you probably think the SMS notifications in iOS are fine. Then, once you realize how BiteSMS does things, you realize how lacking the native SMS notifications are.
Examples:
- It queues up all your messages and will put them up in the top right corner with a number indicating how many messages you have.
- If you have a contact picture, it'll show you the picture (optional).
- You can view and respond to SMS' without leaving your current application.
- You can reply text OR call the person. (hopefully one day they add facetime)
- You can buy credits and have international SMS' go through their server saving you money (if your carrier charges high rates for international SMS)
- If multiple people text you immediately, you can still see all of them and respond accordingly. Unlike on iOS where the latest one pushes all other SMS' alerts away (and forces you to go into Messages.app to see other new SMS')
- It can translate common text emoticons into little images (optional)
- You can override the default SMS alert sounds with your own sounds.
- You can have different SMS alert sounds for different contacts.
- You can have the LED light on the iPhone 4 flash when a new message comes in.
That's just scratching the surface to be honest. It's hands down an amazing essential app.
3
I guess it just becomes a matter of people seeking value. I spent $200 on this device, paying close to $400/yr for mandatory internet. I want to extract every piece of usability that I can. After having used SBSettings and biteSMS, it becomes abundantly apparent that the iPhone is technologically shackled in its native state. So while you can "get by just fine" without a lot of features and apps, you are really selling the phone short by choosing not to at least explore the realm of usability that opens up when you jailbreak. You are also allowing Apple and AT&T to dictate what functions you are allowed to have on a device that you have already paid for.
2
This, 100%. It's insanely more convenient to not have to double tap the home button to switch back and forth between say surfing the web and an ongoing text conversation or to change brightness/wifi/data, etc. As iOS gets better and better less jailbroken things are necessary, but I wouldn't own an iPhone without the two things you mentioned. It's pretty much standard on android (at least the slide down bar), apple really is slacking in that department.
2
I'd agree but bitesms is enormously detrimental to battery life
1
Really? I had unjailbroken for a while (after upgrading to iOS 4.2) and didn't notice an improved battery life. I don't think biteSMS runs any background processes or anything, so can't see how it would cause a power drain.
0
I haven't had any issues with BiteSMS. Still get 2 days charge from my iPhone 4, jailbroken on 4.0
0
[deleted]
-6
I don't think this is worth the amount of hacking that happens in the background of the jailbreaking process - all the additional running processes and so on. Sure, there's some nice features such as the one you mentioned, some cool Cydia apps and stuff, but at least to me they're not as good as the peace of mind I have while using the stock iOS.
13
I do it for the pirated apps. Yeah, I could buy them instead. But as a pirate, why buy when you can rape/pillage/and plunder?
-10
I like to support iPhone devs. I pay $2-5 for coffee daily. why can't i pay $1 for something that will bring me more pleasure than a cup of coffee?
7
Why? Just make another folder. I wouldn't want a folder with that much shit in it. I have 2 games folders. It's not a problem. It's obvious which games are in which folder coz I can see the tiny icons.
7
I agree with you to a point. I currently have 4 games folders. Right now I know where everything is at, but eventually it is going to become a problem. Also, the folder icons only display 9 of the tiny icons, so in any folder that is at the capacity of 12 items, you will not be able to easily see 3 of the items in the folder. I don't have a major issue with the way it is right now, but I think that over time it may become even more of an annoyance.
1
If you have that many items in a folder, it starts to lose its original purpose anyway. Don't force the phone to take more items in one folder, rethink your sorting method and why you need to categorize all those items the same way.
2
Yes. and I haven't jailbroken any of them, cause I like the way that iOS works out of the box.
28
Yes, I would. After upgrading to newer versions of the phones, I jailbroke the previous gen just to check it out, and was never so impressed that I bothered to jailbreak my production phone.
So what are some things that you consider so requisite that you need to jailbreak? Honestly curious. I'm not against doing it, but I've never seen the need, and part of that may be that I just don't know some of the things it could do if I bothered. Then again, if I've never said to myself "damn, wish my phone could do this", maybe it's just not horribly necessary for me.
27
Yes, I would. After upgrading to newer versions of the phones, I jailbroke the previous gen just to check it out, and was never so impressed that I bothered to jailbreak my production phone.
I did the same thing and had the same reaction. I have no problem at all with jailbreaking, but it was not a necessity for me.
7
Personally, there are about 3 reasons I still jailbreak.
- Tethering. No, ATT, I'm not giving you $20 a month for something my phone does without your "help". Especially given that I only need it very occasionally and that I don't get any more data with it.
- Messaging. Not just biteSMS, but email, IM, and SMS. With lockinfo, I can see notifications for all of these things at a glance, even if I get more than one at a time. I don't have to unlock my phone to see the last email that came in, etc.
- Native support for Google Voice. Saves me money, and it's a lifesaver for a dozen other things as well. With PhoneGVextension, and SMS GV extension, I can use the regular Phone and SMS apps and have everything work like it should.
There's quite a few other little tweaks I like (autosilent - profile manager for the iPhone that automatically silences certain alerts or all based on your preference) and Folder enhancer, and Winterboard so I don't have to deal with the stock SMS tones anymore.
Anyway, I don't think I could deal with a stock iPhone anymore. I keep my iPad stock and my old 3G that we use like a Touch, but for my actual phone I feel like I need these capabilities. If I had to give up jailbreaks, I'd probably get a blackberry and an iPod touch.
2
I jailbreak for lockinfo and biteSMS (I love being able to reply right from the notification without leaving what I'm actually doing).
That's about it. If I couldn't anymore, I wouldn't be totally heartbroken, but as it's still an option, I still jailbreak.
3
This, plus SBSettings and Installous (So i can try out apps that don't offer a trial before buying)
4
You're not fooling me
1
Haha - I do seriously pay for the apps I play though. I'm happy to support devs who make good games/apps.
1
Sadly, most would think "piracy," then type "SBSettings." (I've jailbroken my devices since 1.0 all the way to 4.2.1)
2
Yes, because I don't need another hobby. I just want to use the phone and tablet.
25
Hobby? JBing takes a total of 45 seconds.
3
Unless you want to jailbreak and keep your baseband (for unlocking purposes,) in which case it's quite the endeavor. That's why I'm both looking forward to and dreading the untethered JB for 4.3.
5
Yeah and then what? It depends on what I do after the jailbreak. No upgrades, no hassle free backups, baseband, blobs, un/tethered, battery life, features that could be broken (bluetooth, ibooks, skype this year), maintenance... and all the rest of the things I need to consider and know in the first place.
-2
Technology is so scary
3
Bullshit. I mess with devices and code at my job already.
Remember where this thread started. I choose not to jailbreak because my phone does everything I need out of the box. This is my use case and there's no argument you can have about this at all.
-1
Absolutely. I don't bother to JB my devices anymore. There's not much out there that interests me. I've had nothing but problems with some of the UI mod apps like WinterBoard, LockInfo, etc. Most of the packages are just nerdy to the point of absurdity. It seems to me for most normal people the only good reason to jailbreak is to pirate apps.
17
Or to try applications before they buy them?
-7
Absolutely. Jailbreaking has never provided any essential functionality for me beyond, you know, avoiding paying for stuff.
16
I hear this a lot, and i really must be one of the rare people who has their phone jailbroken and zero pirated apps.
10
I've spent more money on Cydia than I probably ever will on the app store. I'd rather pay a dollar for something like fastsnap to use volume buttons to take pictures than buy a game I don't have time to play anyways. I liked when there was the Rock store, and you could read reviews, they were much more intelligent and came with trials on so many of them. The app store reviews are half helpful and half like "OMG y don't it work????? DONT BUY!!!" because they don't read the info. Also being able to pay devs a higher % for their apps is nice, poor app store devs get an unfair slice of the pie to begin with, with how much apple takes from each sale.
3
App store reviews are by 12 year olds. I look at the emoji reviews to lol when I'm bored.
I don't like to spend money on JB apps because there will be a day where jailbreaking won't be easy or possible. That day is coming fast.
0
What makes you think it won't be easy, let alone impossible?
1
The only time I pirated something was when Infinity Blade got out - I wasn't interested in actually playing the game, just wanted to 'see' it.
Downloaded it.. saw it.. looked nice, removed it.
2
I pirate stuff regularly when I don't have any other option to try something for free. If I really like it, I buy it.
1
I've JBed my phone, and have paid for every app that I use. I have Installous, and use it to get apps for free. If I feel like an app is useful, I'll purchase from the app store...the rest, I delete.
Aside from having a free app preview via Installous, Jailbreaking provides insanely useful cydia apps like biteSMS, SBSettings, TetherMe, etc. FWIW, I've paid the $10 for biteSMS too. I feel that if a dev spent his time and effort to make my phone experience better, he deserves to get paid for it.
0
Or install applications outside of the App Store.
Take VLC for instance; Apple had to pull it from their store, but it's still a great app for watching Divx on your iDevice.
2
ಠ_ಠ
1
I've jailbroken a couple of times to see if there was anything worth doing it for...and didn't find anything. Rooting an Android phone, on the other hand, seems to be worth doing.
16
I've never owned an Android device. That's not to say I wouldn't want to, I've just been happy with my iPhone so far. That having been said, I've always been curious about what rooting an Android device does for you. What's the advantage? (genuine curiosity here)
4
Having root access to your phone means you have access to change the actual operating system files, much like jailbreaking an apple device is. Some instant benefits include being able to custom theme the phone, use certain apps that require root access. Any droid enthusiast uses and app called Titanium Backup which allows you to back up your applications to your SD card so if you uninstall/restore or update or change the OS you can restore the app and all your settings in one tap.
Having FULL root or perm root as some call it allow us to change the operating system, since android is open source there are big communities which have customized it to work (in a lot of cases) better than the pre-configured version your handset maker put on there. Phew. Hope that helps.
3
Thanks! So is rooting your phone anything like getting root access on a computer? And if so, why is there such a process involved in simply getting access to the root user?
3
Some handset makers like apple lock the system down because of various reasons, legal issues, they want you to use their software, so you may not accidentally corrupt the OS by not knowing what you are doing. But because there are handset makers that give you root access right from the get go there are a lot of apps and custom features that really entice those who have a locked down phone, so the community then starts to look for a way to "root" the locked down ones so us nerds and geeks can play with all the other options without having to specifically buy and "open" phone.
Some phones have really tight security so a lot of the community devs just try to root the phones for the heck of it, as it's a programming challenge.
2
You basically get more control of your device to a certain degree. Like getting "admin" privileges in a way. Overclocking etc....
2
OK, I'll go into detail. I have owned every iteration of the iPhone at some point. I jailbroke a couple of them to see what I could get. Besides the Cydia store and the ability to run things in the background, I hardly used the abilities it supposedly gave me. And backgrounding really did eat the battery. I would usually close off the jailbreak with Apple's next update.
I currently own an AT&T Dell Streak. AT&T had the device on Android 1.6, a very old version of Android. They absolutely would not push out anything newer. So I rooted the phone and flashed Android 2.2 onto it, and then upgraded to the unlocked Dell Streak 2.2 firmware and rooted that. Android 2.2 has a million new things over 1.6, like Flash 10.1 support. A couple of months later I bought a Wi-Fi only iPad 1 from Verizon while they were dumping them for only $300. With the Wi-Fi tethering capability of a rooted Android phone I have 3G connectivity for my iPad without paying $129 for the extra privilege and without having to start a new data plan.
Big bonus, if you ask me.
1
Thanks for the detail! I can certainly see the benefit there. Being able to skip forward 6 increments on your OS release must be very nice! Not to mention the free tethering.
1
No. Probably not. I'm thinking of going to Android from iPhone anyway.
14
Having come from Android to iPhone, I don't recommend it.
21
Having come from iPhone to Android, I highly recommend it.
6
Having come from Motorola StarTAC to iPhone, I need someone to teach me how to flip this thing open.
23
Touche. I loved my Android phone (Nexus One) quite a bit while I had it. It was, unlike some of the other models, a well-built phone. It had great built in features (tethering, skinning) that didn't require rooting. Widgets were awesome and neat and I could truly make the phone my own. Unfortunately, lots of apps were not up to the quality standard set by iOS. I have some pretty annoying bugs (the one where if you clicked someone on your SMS inbox list it would choose someone at random, or from the bottom). The OS was slow, apps would sometimes crash. Overall, it just wasn't a polished experience. When my Nexus One finally shit the bed I looked at the AT&T offerings for Android devices and, at the time, nothing could match the Nexus One----but the iPhone 4. When I finally made the jump I found I'm much happier. I have the polish of the Apple experience, down to the build quality of the phone (I am a sucker for heavier, metal electronics) and the awesome app selection. In short, I can see the benefits of both but I've started drinking the Mac cult koolaid.
10
The polish of the iPhone is great, I'm also with you on the heaviness of the phone being great(unfortunately, my OG Droid feels a little too light), but the restrictions placed on iOS is a killer for me, and after rooting, so many issues with Motorola's Android has been fixed by custom roms.
2
It's funny you mention this, as the iPhone 4 has one of the worst materials for a back in my opinion.
-17
Switched from an incredible. Until verizon get's high-end android products in terms of the actual quality of the phone itself I cannot recommend it. I had to go through three incredibles over the course of a year.
3
Why is Sileem being downvoted? For having an opinion?
Shame on you (downvoters).
1
20:7 :)))
1
Having gone from iPod Touch to Android, I recommend Android.
-9
And you have been duly downvoted by the fanboys. Enjoy your freedom of choice!
0
Except you will have to root your droid to get rid of all the bundled shit the manufacturer stuck in. Android may be open source, but that doesn't stop manufacturers locking it down.
7
I didn't buy my iPhone/iPod with the original thought of 'Ah man, I can't wait to bust this thing out of jail!"
11
Yes, because there's really no need to jailbreak. Wonderful that those who want to can, but I haven't jail broken any of my iDevices since 2.x.
10
No. Despite Apple adding lots of functionality that was previously only available through jailbreaking, there are still things that I like:
- Terminal access to my phone including SSH to and from.
- File management of my entire file system (not just a sandbox) including wireless file transfers to anywhere on the device.
- SBSettings to manage common settings like WiFi within any app
- Free tethering which also works to transfer my WiFi connection meaning the free AT&T wifi can be shared with my laptop.
- Weathericon so that the weather app actually shows the live weather and temperature for my area.
- Enabling wallpapers for my 3G.
- Five icon dock, a simple thing but with my phone I consider it as 5 functions. Web, Phone, Mail, Texts, and music. With only 4 spaces I have to choose which I want quick access to.
10
Going thru you reason, I could barely find the following ones which are really THE reasons. But:
Terminal access to my phone including SSH to and from.
SSH clients are available for iPhone. And sorry, but I don't see ANY reason to have a server running on a phone.
Free tethering which also works to transfer my WiFi connection meaning the free AT&T wifi can be shared with my laptop.
US problem only. Sorry guys, but in this case say "thanks" to AT&T, not to Apple.
2
I just did, and I have zero intention of jailbreaking it.
9
I wouldn't. I don't buy many gadgets that I can't hack to suit my purposes, and I waited to buy an iPod Touch 2G until there was a jailbreak.
Apple ought to embrace jailbreaking, or at least not actively fight against it - I was such a fan of my iPT2G(my first Apple product ever) that I went out and bought a top of the line iMac a few months later.
7
Apple is never going to allow jail breaking. For every hobbyist, they probably have a hundred people who just want free apps. That is the rub.
5
Apple doesn't care all that much about piracy. They've put untold effort into closing jailbreak holes but almost zero into preventing iTunes from synchronizing pirated apps. If they really cared about piracy they could shut it down tomorrow. They could make it impractical to have pirated apps and to ever buy apps legitimately on the same phone. They could ban pirates or simply delete unlicensed apps remotely.
Apple doesn't do this because the app store is making too much money to care about pirates. They close jailbreak holes to keep unsigned code on the fringe and call that good enough.
4
For every lock they put on the phone, there's a way to pick it. They can't shut the jailbreaking community down.
1
If they completely shut down jailbreaking, I think they'd lose a lot of customers. My 12 year old cousin knows about jail breaking, it's not fringe really and I think they know that. (He is a wrestling, football playing sport-o kid, not a nerd)
1
I hope you realize that jailbreaking is, quite literally, exploiting a flaw in the phone's security. A flaw which could just as easily be used to break into your personal data, install viruses, or do other bad stuff. Completely ignoring all discussion on whether jailbreaking is good or bad, Apple has a duty to continue to fix these holes.
5
Well yes, I realize that. Alternatively, they could easily provide an "expert mode"(with a disclaimer, of course) that allows the user and apps elevated privileges, negating the need for compromising the security of the device while putting the responsibility squarely in the hands of the user.
2
Right, because that worked so well for Android.
0
Do you think iOS apps are immune to similar attacks? Did you forget about the PDF exploit that allowed arbitrary code execution with root access just by visiting a website in Safari? Sure, it got fixed quickly, but that could have disastrous if discovered by the wrong people.
1
I don't see how that has anything to do with what I'm talking about. Because a rogue app roots a phone and performs malicious actions, having root on a device = bad? That's backwards logic. There's a huge difference between malware and letting someone have root access on a device that they own.
1
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. When it comes to what phone I use, it has to suit my needs perfectly. I don't mind spending a couple hundred dollars, but for something I'm going to use every day it needs to do what I want it to.
1
Personally, probably not. I like the freedom, even if I don't exercise it every day. This is assuming iOS devices meaning phones, ipods, and tablets. If something new comes along I'll definitely reconsider.
7
Absolutely not.
7
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
What the Win/Lin crowd just cannot, cannot, cannot understand:
Most people don't want to dick around all day and night with their tech.
I have two requirements in technology: 1. it has to work when I need it to, and well; 2. it has to be as transparent to my thought/work/life as possible.
6
Most people don't want to dick around all day and night with their tech.
No, most people just want their tech to do what they want it to do including Win/Lin people. Nobody wants to dick around all day, but gosh darnit, that thing is going to serve me, not the other way around.
Once I get my machines setup the way I want, I'm done "dicking around" (except, I don't call it dicking around, I call it "getting what I want out of the machine").
0
I don't call it dicking around, I call it "getting what I want out of the machine"
What most/normal people want out of their machines and what us nerds want out of our machines is vastly different. Further, what we call "getting what we want" most/normal people call "dicking around".
I think seltaeb4 was wrong to compare it to the Windows crowd but he has a point with Linux users.
A better way to describe it might be: most people want an appliance.
1
OP: What makes jailbreaking a necessity for you? My iPhone is JBed for the simple convenience of quick menu options, but my iPad is not and my AppleTV no longer is. I liked streaming movies of any format to the ATV2, but didn't use it often enough to care when I needed to reset it.
5
OpenVPN, SBSettings, being able to open mobile terminal or SSH and doing small tweaks and transferring files, Firewall, Lockinfo and being able to run apps that isn't allowed on the App Store (like the OpenVPN app).
It's my phone, I don't like anyone telling me what I can and can not run on it. Right now, I'm considering buying an iPad. I'm not really convinced yet, but there isn't really any good alternative.
What I really want is a Windows 7 tablet, but the ones I seen are either underpowered, too expensive or not available in my country.
4
Also, the windows 7 mobile devices are terrible, according to sources. I don't personally know, but from several articles I've read they leave a lit to be desired.
1
No because I sincerely enjoy being able to play my old GBA games on my phone. Thanks to GpSPhone and ZodTTD <3
5
I own an iOS device and have never jailbroken it.
This. Despite what the haters will say, lots of folks are fine with the current out-of-the-box functionality of iOS.
I'd still want to unlock it though. I refuse to pay AT&T international roaming rates.
You can buy them unlocked here in Canada (iPhones at least).
I'd say it's probably easier to just unlock the phone than to move to Canada.
I got my iphone by walking into the apple store and said "i'd like an iphone please", they gave me one, then i left. It was quite nice to not have to deal with a telco...
You can buy them unlocked everywhere in the world, except the US.
Um, yeah. For twice the price.
Unlocking is the only reason I jailbreak. If there was another more permanent/stable way to unlock I would do that.
Buy your phone in many European countries or in Canada and you'll be all set.
This.
Pretty much everywhere except the U.S.A. you can either buy them unlocked or have your carrier unlock them, often free.
Here in Finland you can buy iPhone 4 for 599€, factory unlocked. Or for 24€/month (2y. contract) for SIM-locked model. If you buy it locked, they unlock it automatically after the contract.
Unlocking is relatively easy, but I think you exaggerate when you say AT&T or Verizon will unlock your iPhone for free.
[deleted]
I don't think rjung is using any special framing, certainly not an objectionable framing. You two are just talking past each other: "lots of folks" don't jailbreak, and "plenty of Apple fans" do. They can be both true.
Same here. There is nothing so glaringly missing as to make me want to do so.
unlocking: the only thing I have needed to jailbreak for.
My iPhone came unlocked directly from Apple.
Good for you. That wasn't and isn't an option for many people.
[deleted]
BiteSMS is the only reason I do it.
BiteSMS is such an amazing program. I can't live without it!
Word!
I don't want to waste my time jailbreaking my phone. I know it does cool stuff, but it also means I have to keep up with the jailbreak every time an upgrade comes out. I'd have to wait for the new jailbreak, which isn't always immediately after. It's just not worth the extra hassle. I think you should be able to jailbreak your phone, it's just not my cup of tea.
This is one reason I feel jailbreaking is a set back. It is a pain in my ass to do it every update.
Not sure if phones work differently, but I just stopped updating my iPod Touch after I jailbroke it, it bugs me to update ever once in a while, but it works fine.
Or you can just not do a sheeple upgrade every time Apple tells you to.
That's right. Because none of those upgrades ever have benefits.
Jeez. I was stuck on 4.2 for ages, and 4.3 had something I REALLY WANTED: the ability to search on web pages. All for a jailbreak that I only need because I may need the unlock aspect soon. (Travel.)
You appear to want your cake and to be able to eat it as well.
Whatever Thor! :)
I've absolutely never felt a need to jailbreak my iPhones. Yes I realize there's "neat" stuff you can do if you jailbreak that you can't do if you don't but I really don't care. What I want out of my iPhone is being a phone, being an ipod and letting me play angry birds, tiny wings, plants vs. zombies, etc. It does all of that stuff great.
The ONLY thing that is appealing to me about jailbreaking is the tethering, but honestly even that has been very rare since I rarely have my laptop out anywhere that doesn't have WiFi.
You can tether with the latest iOS 4.3 can't you?
Sure if I give up my unlimited data plan and pay $15 more per month than I'm paying now!
Though it seems that the carriers can detect jailbroken tethers, so the advantage won't last.
Yes, but now it is a hotspot. You can have one usb, 2 bluetooth, and 2 wifi connections all at once. 5 machines, one phone.
I jailbroke my first iPhone when i sold it on craigslist, and didn't see what the big deal was. I was perfectly happy living with apple's rules.
Same, i dont see the point in jailbreaking. Apps are cheap most of the time, iOS keep getting better and life is fucking wonderful!!!
I jailbroke mine, but just to see what the hoopla was about. I've since not, and don't care.
so in other words you would stop buying them immediately!
I've never jailbroken an iOS device. I have yet to find something that jailbreaking offers that I would actually use.
I used to jailbreak but caused battery life issues. I still like the option. Restricting my use of a device I pay a premium for is criminal. Crippling my potential ability is flat out wrong.
This is from a self proclaimed apple prophet.
Same. I don't really care enough to jailbreak it. I'm happy with how it works. (Not saying it's perfect, but meh. I'm not really into dicking around with gadgets anyway.)
This, I completely agree with mikemac11. I have 3GS, my wife has 3G. Never Jailbroken, nor wanted to at all. Looking forward to 2x iPhone 5's in the future, won't jailbreak. I can afford the $1-$2 app here and there for some fun, but there are so many free apps, no need to jailbreak at all.
I have jailbroken my past iPhones but haven't done it on the current one. I like having the option, even if I don't use it.
So do I, and I bought another one when the 4th generation iPod Touch came out. (I started with the second generation, back when it was new.)
I see no need, to jailbreak. Plus, I've heard that it's not a good idea for developers to jailbreak, as there have been cases of it causing unusual behavior with some APIs.
Same here and haven intention of doing so. Yes it doesn't do everything I would like but I went into it knowing this so it doesn't bother me.