I live in an area dense in Karens and I've heard people judge others for using prong/ecollars but it has yet to happen to me. has this happened to anyone and what have you said in response?
Posted Jun 17, 2020, 12:02 AM UTC
“I don’t remember asking for your opinion”
Or one of the trainers said something like “people have told me it’s cruel to use a print collar. I think it’s cruel not to train your dog.”
It depends on you. Kindness and understanding of where they are coming from will do wonders for a lot of people. I have had one person question my dogs prong and I stopped to chat, offered to show them the collar, let them know the legalities in our state and thanked them for noticing and thinking of other dogs.
Be a dick and they will just equate your attitude to the tool. Either be polite and walk away, or if you are up to it then take the time to speak to them with as much calm kind attitude as possible.
“This is how we communicate, and my dog appreciates knowing what I expect from him”
Fortunately my area is not densely populated with Karens but those I run into are extremely persistent. Since I have the advantage of walking two HUGE (130-150 lbs) dogs that can very obviously turn you into a lawn skier with ease and two large well muscled very fit Dobes that would prefer to walk themselves, I've found the quickest way to dislodge these know it alls is to clip the leash to flat collar or harness and politely invite Karen to show me how it's done. With the wolfhounds if at all possible I try to send them in the direction of something small, furry, and fast moving. The hounds are gentle even if distractable and usually come to a halt after dashing mmmm...twenty yards or so.
The vast majority of people will refuse. Their goal is virtue signaling. They don't actually want to demonstrate positive only training, or know much about training in general. They just want to feel morally superior.
I've only had two people attempt to take me up on the offer. One tried it with one of my Dobes; in an attempt to make it look like J was heeling she matched her pace to the dog's. J on the other hand completely ignored her so I had the fun of watching J essentially frog-March this lady for half a block while I followed along behind until she ran out of breath.
The second aborted the mission immediately. Year old wolfhound spun around from facing me as the lady stepped off and bumped her hip with his, nearly knocking her off her feet. She handed the leash back and informed me my dog needed training.
TL; DR my method for discouraging Karens is to offer them the leash of my very large dogs so they can demonstrate control without tools. 98% refuse the opportunity.
Hahaha I'm going to try this. If I have a ball, their shoulder's going to get dislocated and he wouldn't even notice them dragging behind him 😂
"Can't talk right now" or "sorry, I'm busy" and move along / go back to what you were doing. I don't engage with strangers about my training choices, I'll let my dog talk for me.
I know people worry about getting approached/judged but I find it happens to me infrequently, no more than people commenting on feeding treats or anything else I'm doing. And I train in public a lot.
I foster behaviorally challenged large breed dogs that have often been surrendered to the shelter by “Karens” who think it’s more cruel to use a training tool than it is to abandon their dog at a shelter...so sometimes I’ll say exactly that. Very rarely I’ll go into more detail explaining that the dog is much happier, more stable, and more secure with the communication that comes with the proper use of a prong/e-collar (usually only if it’s someone I know or am spending time with). If it’s just a nosy stranger I’ll usually just say “thanks for your opinion, but we’re doing just fine”.
A little off topic, but I also recently came across a couple studies (attached below) that I can cite when people try to say that harnesses are so much better for your dog. They show that harnesses actually limit range of motion causing stress on the shoulder joint and negatively affect a dog’s gait even after the harness is off.
https://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/lafuente_effects_of_harnesses.pdf
https://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/harnesses_for_agility_dogs.pdf
I am a dog trainer who has worked at a humane society. This is my approach as well. "Is it better for him to just be put down? Because if we limit the pool of owners for difficult, large dogs to people who either have the extra 20 hrs a week to train positive-only or to people who are strong enough to physically hold back the dog without the use of tools- a lot more dogs who could lived happy, fulfilled lives will just be killed." Most of the time the people shut up and go away. A few times, it's actually lead to meaningful conversations.
If I know I'm going to a high-Karen area, I'll tie a cute bandana over his E-collar and have the remote in a pocket.
Thank you for those links! They are really helpful!
Just to make sure my reading comprehension is accurate this morning. This study found that even the Y harness still can harm the dog in the long run?
I’ll try to explain to them why I need the prong/e-collar and what it does. I just assume they are uneducated and if they still try to debate me I will say something along the line of “It’s my dog and I know what works for him/her”. I haven’t really been ever criticized, people just ask “Is that a shock collar?” or “Why do you use a pinch?”. They are usually just curious and don’t know any better, I’ve taught a 10 year old what an e-collar was before. The real positive dog trainers are the problem, but I have never run into one.
The best way to respond to a debate is to thank the other person, and ask them about their dogs too. It’s funny but it will totally confuse most people that are trying to argue by being nice.
That’s a good idea, I’ll try that in the future.
“And it’s ok that your dog is pulling you around on the harness?”
“Are you training your dog or is your dog training you?”
"I'd rather my dog be uncomfortable than underneath someone's car tire"
I got some negative feedback about my ecollar and muzzle use until my dog got that shit NAILED and now he's literally a champion off the leash. A Karen might open her mouth to whine at me, but two seconds of observing my dog will show that he's calm and well-socialized, stops on a dime, recalls in high-distraction environments, and wears a muzzle comfortably. He's literally the dopest. And he's a pit so it's impossible to mask his enthusiasm and charisma with people, I haven't gotten a bad comment in years. Just keep you and your pup on your game and get your manners tight and people will literally have nothing to complain about.
Try saying, "yes, when i think about it, you're right: i AM electrocuting my dog in the form of some power trip because I'm too lazy to train my dog properly."
Literally the spiel some dude gave to me unannounced one day. Yeesh
I think most people are looking for a reaction out of you or an ego boost by inserting unfounded claims / unwarranted advice. I don’t think most people are looking to engage in open dialogue or learn about the tools you are using. Personally, I haven’t found speaking with those people to be productive so I don’t waste my time with it.
"I'll think about it". And then I don't.
A couple of times people asked me genuinely, they were judging but were trying to understand, so I explained the truth, having a prong on my dog enables me to roller skate and bike with him, he behaves a lot better when he's exercised but it's the only way I can do that safelyy because he's too powerful and could make me fall. The ecollar (and muzzle) are safety measures so he can be offleash without being a risk for other people and dogs. If I didn't use those tools he'd just be walking maybe an hour a day tops, which just isn't healthy for a shepperd dog that's supposed to be running in the mountains all day.
But realistically the only time someone told me something out of the blue was one of the time where I was really frustrated and upset and doing things I shouldn't because I wasn't going anywhere. I regret obviously, and I'm really happy those rare instances didn't turn our relationship to crap but don't throw the baby with the bath water, sometimes it's good to stop and just think about what you're doing, even if you end up realising you're doing the right thing and move on, sometimes you're not and it's good to adjust course !
Also in a high Karen density area and also used to worry about this. The people who are going to say something will literally have no idea what they're talking about. If you give even a little information about why these tools are useful they'll have nothing else to say, or you'll convert them.
If I hear the comments, I ignore the person while running through a rigamaroll of commands. Ex: “heel” walk 15 paces “stand” continue walking 15 paces without dog, turn to dog, sit, down, sit, down, stand, come, beside, heel.
Walk away like a boss
Virtually nothing
I just smile and say "noted" and move on
"My dog won't run after a squirrel and get hit by a car because a squirrel is more fun than the treat he thinks you have"
I'd ask to see a certificate of her dog training degree.
“Mind your fucking business”