Source
r/TwoXChromosomes•
halright

How responsible are people for picking up on social cues?

Okay, so I've recently been downvoted to oblivion for an opinion I held and I thought it was a totally reasonable, rational opinion. As the reasonable and rational community that I know TwoX is I come to you to shed some light. I think that feeling uncomfortable with the unwanted, unsolicited attention of strange men is something that many women have delt with on a number of occasions. Obviously, it seriously sucks, in most cases for all parties involved. My opinion on the matter was that in these instances women need to express their disinterest directly, particularly in cases where the guy has been intrusive over a span of time. I suggested that it was the responsibility of women in this position to tell the guys they aren't interested straight up. People responded very, very poorly to this idea and it was linked to victim blaming, which I found to be quite offensive because I consider myself a good person. As far as I could tell, people were saying that simply giving off vibes, and having a certain demeanor and tone should have been sufficient evidence to a man that his advances weren't welcome. I thought this was nonsense. We have the ability of language for a reason. Certainly not all of the responsibility for these awful situations should fall on the guy just because he was too dumb to pick up on the series of hints you've been sending out, right? I mean can you really blame someone for not understanding what you haven't told them? Is this actually victim blaming? P.S I can't figure out how to do separate paragraphs, so sorry for the block of writing.

Posted May 23, 2011, 7:08 AM UTC

979
Seamstress•

If I'm already feeling unsafe when a man is trying to flirt with me or find out more about me, I try to escape the situation rather than being confrontational.

If you say something "mean" to them, like "please leave me alone", how can you tell how they're going to react? They could have a violent reaction. It isn't a tactful thing to say.

14
TodayIAmGruntled•

A lot of people lose their social norms when they've had too much to drink, so you're right. They could get physically confrontational. The primary goal is for you to stay safe and do what you feel is necessary to do that.

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halrightOP•

Good point. I think I overlooked the role of alcohol in these situations.

2
MsAnthropic•

If I'm already feeling unsafe when a man is trying to flirt with me or find out more about me, I try to escape the situation rather than being confrontational.

This exactly. Many women -- including myself -- try to avoid voicing a straightforward rejection because we are unsure whether or not the rejected party will escalate in the face of outright rejection. There are so many stories of people -- men and women -- getting downright ugly and threatening when they're told, "No."

And, frankly, if you're over the age of 20 and don't have Asperger's, expecting the world to give you black & white verbal answers all the time is a rather naive/childish attitude. Yeah, it'd be easier, but that's not how society generally works. Human interaction isn't like computer code. Human interaction is filled with subtlety (e.g. tone of voice, body language), and refusing to make the effort to learn how to read said nuance is your problem.

7
pass_over•

I do it all the time. I haven't been attacked once. You're going to have to learn how to stand up for yourself and stop being so afraid of men, ESPECIALLY if you are around other people. You are not going to get attacked if you are at a bar or out in public where there are other people around.

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halrightOP•

While I agree that is unlikely that the you are going to get attacked in public, it only takes one time for someone to totally lose their confidence in this sort of situation. I think you've been lucky, but make sure you don't discount the experience of those who haven't been.

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pass_over•

They haven't tried, though. They've said they have always been too afraid. If they had said something and then been attacked, I'd understand the fear; but they haven't.

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Seamstress•

Thank you. It takes courage to say a clear "no" when you are in a frightening situation, and I've had that answer disrespected in the past.

1
Seamstress•

Luckily flirting is not usually threatening and is flattering, but I've been in two situations where I was afraid. Both times involved the significantly older man following me and looking for me throughout the day when I had tried to remove myself from the situation. One of those men tried to get me to narrow down where exactly I lived. In retrospect I should have told the event security about that address-seeking guy. The non-address-seeking guy found me at the same event a year later and sat next to me.

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[deleted]•

Women are socialised not to respond assertively in these situations, lest we be met with an aggressive response.

Yet I'm also a woman who happens to be bad at social cues. That is my problem. If I happen to make someone (of either gender) uncomfortable because of that, then I need to learn what not to do again - and not to expect people to put up with my shit. I expect no less of others if the roles happen to be reversed.

14
Pazon•

If you know you're bad at social cues, what is the moral thing to do? It seems like you shouldn't try to rely on social cues because you know you'll miss them, and as a result you may wrong people by paying too much or too little or the wrong kind of attention to them. You could hope that people will be more direct with you, but you never know if they will be. You could live like a hermit so as not to offend everyone, but that seems kind of counterproductive. The only other alternatives I can think of at the moment are to go around warning everyone that you won't pick up on their cues and to periodically ask people directly if you're getting on their nerves, though those themselves could be obnoxious/annoying.

If you're so bad at social cues that you're disabled, it is your problem in the same sense as being a paraplegic would be. If you're a paraplegic, it's not as if everyone is obligated to carry you wherever your wheelchair can't take you, but it's still not your fault if you can't make it up the stairs.

Edit: *you

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[deleted]•

If you're so bad at social cues that you're disabled, it is your problem in the same sense as being a paraplegic would be. If you're a paraplegic, it's not as if everyone is obligated to carry you wherever your wheelchair can't take you, but it's still not your fault if you can't make it up the stairs.

This is not most people who are being discussed in this context. If you're on the autistic spectrum then that's fair enough, but there's a big difference between that and most folks who are just a bit slow to pick up on social cues. Expecting (generally women) to bend over backwards for anyone who happens to be not great at picking up on social cues is unfair to say the least. The onus is on you, if your behaviour freaks someone out, not to do it again.

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Pazon•

Ah, sorry, my impression of this post was that it was inspired by this, though I realize that wasn't mentioned.

I think halright was assuming, though, that if the hypothetical guy in question did pick up on someone's cues that they were freaking them out, they'd stop, and halright was concerned about situations where the guy first makes the mistake, doesn't realize that's what he's doing, and has no way of figuring it out because the only signals he's getting are the same kind he hasn't learned to pick up on.

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[deleted]•

...then he needs to pay more attention.

Like I said, you're talking to someone who is genuinely bad at social cues. I pay attention. I err on the side of caution if need be. Ergo, I don't wind up in these situations.

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halrightOP•

Yes thank you, that is exactly what I'm trying to express.

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[deleted]•

I mean can you really blame someone for not understanding what you haven't told them?

Well I think most of the really aggressive unwanted attention guys do it on purpose because they know most women are too passive to tell them to fuck off, so yes I do blame them.

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halrightOP•

How did you come to this conclusion? What are you basing this off of? It seems like an incredibly sexist sentiment.

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[deleted]•

Because for a man to be completely clueless about whether his unwanted attention is actually unwanted he'd have to be so isolated from others that he'd be completely unaware of the fact that women don't usually respond well to attention from random strange men, or he'd have to be socially maladjusted to such a ridiculous degree that standard everyday interactions are difficult for him. Those are some traits that are real outliers in the range of human behavior.

It's more likely that most men who harass women either know they're being inappropriate and got off on the fact that they have a captive audience or they think so little of women that they don't care.

Is it sexist to assume that most men at least posses a standard amount of social awareness? So that their actions which suggest unawareness of others' states of receptiveness are a conscious choice? I don't think it's sexist, it think it's willingness to hold another fully accountable for his behavior instead of making excuses for him.

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halrightOP•

I think you are making huge assumptions. As far as I know you are not the official spokesperson for women, to say that women don't usually respond to attention from strange men is based on your own opinions or those of your friends. My friends love random attention from men. It's how they get laid! Not all women are the same. Not all men are the same. It's not fair to either group to assume you know them. You don't! You have to talk to them to know them!

It's more likely that they are getting off at the fact that they have a captive audience? Umm says who? I would love to see ANY real evidence supporting that. I would take a twitter statement, that's how confident I am that you've based this off of nothing but your own experience. Your experiences mean a lot and they are valid, but it's not fair to others to apply them to everyone.

Obviously it is up to you to decide if being fair is something that interests you.

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[deleted]•

My friends love random attention from men. It's how they get laid!

Well if your friends are showing that they love the attention that random men are giving them, then that's not the kind of interaction that this thread or anyone else is talking about at all, is it? The only thing we're talking about is men who persist in harassing women even when they're visibly non-responsive or non-interested.

I'm not sure what to respond to here because you're obviously not capable of reading and responding relevantly.

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coplandmj•

It's hard to know what to say when you're being "hit on" because sometimes, you're not sure if you're being hit on or not. I'd hate to say "look, I'm not interested" and have the guy respond that he wasn't flirting with me at all, and imply / say that I must be very self-centred if I assumed he was interested in me. I find it easier just to get out of the situation.

But I could stand to be more assertive. A few weeks ago at an event, a guy seemed to be coming on fairly strong. I got out of the conversation as soon as possible and went to be with my boyfriend. I thought that the obvious physical closeness between my boyfriend and me would send the message to this other guy that I wasn't available. Apparently the message didn't get through, because he emailed me twice the next day (through LinkedIn). I didn't reply to either email, and he didn't message me again.

I would not, however, go around telling people that he was a creep at the event (the follow up emails were a bit much because I'm sure he saw me with my boyfriend). He had no idea that I was in a relationship on the night. The last two relationships I've been in (i.e. this one and the one before that) have involved the guy "coming on to me." And I liked it, because I liked them. It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly claim a guy was creepy, just because I wasn't interested in him when his behaviour was similar to two guys I did fancy. And if he had continued flirting (in retrospect, it was pretty blatant), I'd have put an end to it by saying I had a boyfriend. Only after that, could he have been labeled "creepy" if he continued.

I don't feel unsafe when someone is flirting with me. But if I'm not interested, I try to end the situation and get the message across without vocalising how not-interested I am. I'd pull that card out if and when other cues have failed.

And I have to remember that the behaviour was more than welcomed when it came from a guy I had the hots for, so it's not exactly inherently inappropriate!

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halrightOP•

I think that is a really good point. The situation you described is in my opinion completely the appropriate and understanding response. I would hope that most women approach these situations in the considerate way that you have. In the original post I was advocating verbal cuing the guy into your disinterest and I am sticking with that. However, that doesn't have to be the first step. Creating physical distance and not minimizing your responses is a great first step. They SHOULD get the hint. But the responsibility still lies on the recipient of the attention to be clear that it isn't appreciated, and on the aggressor to be sensitive to social cues. Social interactions are a multi person game. No one person holds all of the responsibility right from the start.

I couldn't really articulate myself very well with this point, so let me know if it makes sense or if I've overlooked anything.

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TodayIAmGruntled•

While I agree with this:

My opinion on the matter was that in these instances women need to express their disinterest directly, particularly in cases where the guy has been intrusive over a span of time. I suggested that it was the responsibility of women in this position to tell the guys they aren't interested straight up.

For me, I strive really hard to be as clear as I can in life's communication opportunities. It's part of my job, and it helps tremendously in personal relationships. So, when dealing with a guy pestering me, I've been clear and polite in telling them that I'm not interested in the conversation. Most guys back off. (Disclaimer: By pestering, I'm referring to the unwanted attempts at touching me, the uncouth comments about my body parts, the sexual suggestions.)

Even though I don't feel respected, I still make an initial effort to give him the respect of giving him a clear "No!". If he still won't back off, I escalate my efforts. And that's usually when I get called a bitch. Whatever. That's on him, not me.

You lost me at this:

Certainly not all of the responsibility for these awful situations should fall on the guy just because he was too dumb to pick up on the series of hints you've been sending out, right? I mean can you really blame someone for not understanding what you haven't told them?

While I do feel it's my responsibility to be clear with a pest when I'm the one dealing with him, I also recognize that other ladies might not feel so confident in dealing with the problem. We each handle things in our own manner, in the way we feel comfortable doing. And we shouldn't be shamed for it. I've had days where I'm disgruntled and don't want to be messed with or expend the energy to clarify for some guy why I won't let him touch my boob. I've turned my back on the lecher. Unless the guy lived under a rock and is just now seeing sunlight for the first time, he should know that when someone turns their back on you after you've made an ugly comment, it's not an invitation to then snap their bra.

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halrightOP•

I think that the scenario you've described (bra snapping and boob touching) is more harassment than being creepy. I do not feel that ANY of the responsibility falls on the woman when they are being harassed. That is what I would define as victim blaming. I'm more interested in the pestering that you described earlier. It is in this stage that I think that the woman has a responsibility to the man to be clear about her feelings before she starts using offensive language against him (ie. creep).

Different social groups have different ideas about the kind of discourse that is acceptable when it comes to sex and its important to recognize that these discrepancies WILL lead to uncomfortable situations. I am guessing that by discussing this with the other person, more often that not it will diffuse the situation. But of course I can't prove this and if I'm wrong then my advice could victimize more women.

As always people must use their own discretion when dealing with situations that they are uncomfortable with. I guess I'm really just advocating a little more understanding.. and maybe for some women a lot more..

1
TodayIAmGruntled•

Okay. I see. To clarify, this is how I see a person behaving who is not picking up on cues:

"Hi. You look nice tonight. Can I buy you a drink? Well, since you're too busy, can I have your number? No, well, can I sit here and chat with you to try to change your mind? Oh, you have friends coming to meet you? Great! I'll stay here so I can chat with them, too. Can I have your number?"

So, clearly the above is exaggerated, but I've seen many encounters like this before. The guy just isn't picking up on the clues (being busy, having friends coming to meet her) that the lady, trying to be polite, is dropping. In this case, I would tell the guy I'm not interested and to look elsewhere. I'd be polite, but firm. I would not name-call. But that's just me. A little pestering wouldn't bother me because I'm confident in handling myself.

That said, I do want to point out that the above behavior taken too far can veer onto the harassment road very quickly. Say, for example, if the guy was in her space or if he kept at his pestering for a half-hour or longer. I'll tolerate an initial re-con by a guy, but if he kept at me for an hour (probably less), I'd lose my patience right quick.

Your request of the women for more understanding can also be applied to the men. It's such a small statement, but if everyone would just start taking "no" as meaning "no", then it might lessen the misunderstandings.

"Can I buy you a drink? No? Okay."

See what I mean?

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halrightOP•

Oh for sure. It absolutely can and should be applied to both the man and the woman. But it just feels a little bit like women push the entire responsibility on the men a bit too often.

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antisocialmedic•

Harassment and being creepy are mutually exclusive?

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halrightOP•

The kind of creepy we are discussing is not harassment. It's unwanted attention that I'm talking about. I'm not defending any harassers, call them creepy all you want.

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antisocialmedic•

It's a thin line a lot of the time.

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FURYOFCAPSLOCK•

I mean can you really blame someone for not understanding what you haven't told them?

If someone is aggressively pursuing someone, shouldn't it be their responsibility to actually ask at some point, since you might be invading someone's comfort zone? And then you can blame the recipient for not being honest or straightforward. I don't think it should be anyone's duty to do mind reading to try to protect the egos of strangers.

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halrightOP•

Ooh good point! I hadn't considered the responsibility of the men to define their motives, but that absolutely should be a part of the role of pursuer. Let's try and force this into the norm!

I don't know about asking permission though, but that's just my own personal opinion cause I don't find it attractive when guys ask me what they are allowed to do around me. Personally, if I don't like it I'll ask them to stop. Though I know I don't speak for all women when I say that.

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FURYOFCAPSLOCK•

I didn't mean asking permission, but if you are actively hitting on someone I think at some point you should ask if they are interested.

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halrightOP•

Ah! even better!

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JohnGalt2010•

Double enter does a line br.

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Rinsaikeru•

While you might argue that he's just too "dumb" to pick up on social cues--in my experience it's wilful ignorance. Even if I explicitly say "not interested" or "I have a boyfriend" odds are pretty good that the guy will continue hitting on me with "how can I make you interested" or "you're not married yet"--so the direct approach rarely works either.

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Seamstress•

I had someone pull the "You're not married yet" line on me when I was engaged. Classy :D

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pass_over•

I love it when guys do that, because that means I get to escalate into SUPERBITCH mode!!!

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halrightOP•

Well if that is your experience I can't argue with that. Your experiences are the most important thing you have in navigating the world. It's just not my own personal experience or the experience of many of my friends. Also I've had a couple guy friends who have been hit with the creep label for silly things (silly is not the appropriate word, but I just mean unwanted flirtation and such) and it's really destroyed their confidence.

I think it's important to note that the men who are most likely labelled as a creep for these silly reasons are probably the ones who are going to be the most negatively effected by the label.

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Rinsaikeru•

I promise that I am actually always very direct with the exception of times when I feel threatened. Most guys do respond appropriately--the ones I mentioned above are in a very vocal minority that don't adhere to any kind of social cues.

I use creep to mean guys who don't pay attention to signs that mean no or words that mean no and continue to press on. I think it's an accurate description.

Yes the word might get over used by some women, probably more by younger women and teens though. But if you consider all the things women get called ...creep is pretty tame. I've been called bitch, cunt, frigid whore (figure that one out)....all by the same guy one night.

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halrightOP•

I have to admit that I am pretty biased in this because I haven't been called a name since I was in grade 8 probably (to my face at least). So when it comes to name calling my perception from experience is that men and women get it equally, though I know this is probably not the narrative of most women.

And maybe I am stuck in the past. Hopefully the people around me have outgrown this behavior and I just haven't noticed. I'm only 21, so maybe the word creep is different in adulthood than it has been in teenhood.

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Rinsaikeru•

I'm not really arguing that men get called "less bad" things--just that creep specifically isn't all that bad compared to other things I think.

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halrightOP•

Oh my gosh. That's terrible. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. That's not creepy in the socially awkward way I think I am discussing. That to me is more of a total douchebag. As in WTF is wrong with this asshole.

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Rinsaikeru•

It's not something that happens often, and I've got pretty thick skin by now. Was more intimidating when I was younger.

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aennil•

First of all, don't worry about being downvoted to oblivion for an opinion. I'd like to think that that is an earned battle wound around here. There are certain topics that people seem to be much more emotional about downvoting than others and you seemed to have hit on one.

As to separating paragraphs, just double space.

In one version of an ideal world every one would be super great at picking up on non-verbal cues. In a similarly ideal world where people weren't all super great at picking up on non-verbal cues, people would be able and willing to express themselves verbally. But we unfortunately don't live in either of those places.

The way I see it, thing is that our society is presently set up with there being an expectation that people pick up on some overt non-verbal cues. Whether or not that is a fair or realistic expectation is another story. I think being willing to explicitly verbalizing something to some one, especially some one who is making you uncomfortable, would be super nice and super great, but I think that is considered above and beyond what is considered socially sanctioned.

I mean, it's hard. Are we going to blame some one with autism for not picking up on "obvious" cues? Are we going to blame some one who is socially inept for not picking up on "obvious" cues? I mean, we could. Or are we going to blame some one, who is playing by societies rules and is giving out "obvious" cues for not going "above and beyond" and being verbally blatant? Ultimately their behavior is on them, as they are the only ones that could be responsible for what they do. But, considering that this behavior is based on a deficit, I'm not sure how productive blaming them is.

I don't know. In a situation in society today, when I guy is not taking non-verbal cues, I think it would be ideal for the uncomfortable party to express verbally how they feel. In this case, they are the person who is "in the know". But, I don't think that that person is under any unspoken social contract or socially obligated to do so.

It's a really unfortunate situation. And for those people who are completely clueless to the unspoken non-verbal cues around them, I'm sure it sucks. Because it may be that without some one pointing out the obvious they have no idea what is going on. I just don't think that there is any especially easy answer.

5
Servalpur•

Personally I'm of the opinion that people should be more upfront in general in how they communicate. I'm not a fan of throwing "hints" at people, because you never know if they're going to pick up on them. Maybe it's just because I'm a pretty geeky guy, and have had the (dis)pleasure of interacting with tons of other geeky guys, I generally just prefer to say what I mean straight. It cuts through the BS and at the very least saves both me and the person I'm dealing with our time.

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reeksofhavoc•

I suggested that it was the responsibility of women in this position to tell the guys they aren't interested straight up.

There has never been a time where I've needed to be polite with people over something of this nature.

So if you're not a victim you can't be blamed.

I'm with ya.

2
halrightOP•

Haha yes! Though I think it does need to be said that even though you've not had that experience, other women probably have and I'm sure it was quite unpleasant.

Also, i don't understand what you mean by "if you're not a victim you can't be blamed". It seems kind of counter intuitive...

1
reeksofhavoc•

Don't act like a victim. Don't look at others as victims.

1
lunachick•

I mean can you really blame someone for not understanding what you haven't told them? Is this actually victim blaming?

There's so much grey area. All situations are different.

I don't believe in hinting, as a general rule for all and any human interaction. Subconscious hinting (body language, lack of eye contact) is what normal people pick up on. If you're trying to "hint," the person probably doesn't care if you're interested or not.

I think it's great to be vocal and be upfront in some situations. I like to be upfront in a humorous, yet authoritative way so it's not to abrasive and I direct myself into the position of control.

Sometimes just getting away from the person is the best way to go. If someone is being rude and you feel threatened, just leave. It's not your job to give a shit how someone else perceives you or navigates social situations. This isn't about fear really, just why waste your energy on someone you're not interested in knowing.

2
reaganing•

A lot of the other stuff I wanted to say has already been posted, but:

People responded very, very poorly to this idea and it was linked to victim blaming, which I found to be quite offensive because I consider myself a good person.

I just wanted to point out that victim blaming and being a good person are not mutually exclusive. You can say things that are wrong or offensive and still be a good person.

2
halrightOP•

I agree, but I think when you've been involved in this kind of discourse regularly (as I have been) and you can no longer blame ignorance, victim blaming does mean that you are a bad person. Once you've become aware that what you are saying is wrong or offensive and you still do it, it doesn't speak well to your character. I had been made aware that it was offensive and maintained my stance. So I wanted to see what the general opinion was so that I could better amend my views.

1
k4ssm•

My senior year of high school, I sat down the (very creepy) guy who had been borderline stalking me for two months and told him that I wasn't interested, never would be, and that his behavior had to stop. He responded by swinging his full backpack into my face. A decade later, I still have the scar from where my teeth went through my lip. As a minor, he never faced substantive consequences and, from what I heard through the class grapevine, went on to harrass more women throughout college.

I'm very sympathetic to women who don't want to have a difficult and potentially emotionally charged discussion with a guy who strikes them as abnormal in his responses.

2
halrightOP•

I'm so sorry to hear that. That is insane. While I appreciate that that would absolutely make anyone nervous about these kind of circumstance I also have to note that this person was obviously not stable. Violently attacking anyone with a weapon for something that they've said is the mark of an insane person. I would like to hope that this is not an expected reaction from a guy following rejection.

1
k4ssm•

That's the thing though. He's obviously unstable in retrospect, but at the time he only seemed really, really weird, not violent. Nobody in my class would have ever expected that.

But a lot of the things that make us think of someone as weird or creepy are signs that the person doesn't behave in a normal, predictable way. At that point, while violence is not an expected reaction, you''ve already established that the persons behavior doesn't follow expected patterns. If you don't understand why a guy reacts(or doesn't) to anything else you do, you can't form any good theories about how he'll react to rejection.

2
halrightOP•

True, but that doesn't mean that you should expect men to react violently to rejection. Though, after hearing that story I don't know how you could possibly expect anything else. Does it cross your mind every time you receive unwanted attention?

1
k4ssm•

That's a little hard to answer. It's certainly hard to forget, but I don't think it's substantively changed the way I react(what I think you were getting at).

I went to a very nerdy, male-dominated college where unwanted attention from strange guys continued to be an issue. I think the one thing I started doing differently was talking up the problem a bit when a guy was both really creeping me out and twice my size. If all my friends knew what was going on and how bothered I was, it was generally possible to avoid solo confrontations. Luckily the issue has all but vanished now that I'm working -- my company actually has good management and nips that stuff in the bud most of the time.

2
septemberstripes•

Imagine that one time, when you were younger and still new to hitting on girls, you met one who seemed nice, and who you thought might be flirting with you, but you weren't sure. So you offered to buy her a drink and she responded by stabbing you in the crotch with a pen, rupturing one of your testicles. Because of prompt surgery, your testicle was saved.

Would it cross your mind every time you considered buying a woman a drink?

1
SilentAgony•

We have the ability of language for a reason.

"Creepy."

0
halrightOP•

Haha wow, I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make.

1
SilentAgony•

As far as I can tell, the point you're trying to make is that men should not have to be responsible for the way they treat women because they're not fucking mind-readers and women should respond kindly, promptly, and with language chosen carefully not to hurt men's feelings because women are supposed to be nice and make themselves easy and harmless and men have it so hard and they have to talk to women and can't be expected to know when they're being scary as hell.

4
Feuilly•

It's all a matter of perspective. You could just as easily say that the socially awkward one is the person who can't convey their wishes, and the victim is the one who is punished as a result of that social awkwardness.

-2
halrightOP•

But actually you couldn't because that isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying both parties have responsibility in the matter. Yes the socially awkward man should try harder to pick up on cues. That is his responsibility. The other side is the woman's responsibility to recognize that approaching a person you are attracted to can be hard and nerve racking. And can potentially lead you to interpret socially cues more difficult.

1
Feuilly•

No, you're misunderstanding what I was saying. I'm saying that you could just as easily say that the woman is socially awkward because she's incapable of communicating her wishes.

What people normally do is normalize the woman's behaviour and imply that the problem is because of his social deficiencies, and not hers.

I agree with you that the blame lies on both parties.

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[deleted]•

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rmuser•

I'm pretty sure a woman can go to a coffee bar, be approached a barista and be questioned as to what she wants to order and then later on claim she was nearly raped but survived.

Look at that, you thought we would mistake your constructed narrative for reality.

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[deleted]•

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[deleted]•

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[deleted]•

...drugs are bad for you, mmmkay?

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[deleted]•

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