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MaxPayload

A Trial of the Seven: You Know You Want It... but who do you want?(Spoilers Main)

MAIN

Assuming we get TWOW and ADOS, we are going to get a Trial of the Seven. I just can't see any other outcome. I'm not certain which book we get it in, but it is coming. Try to convince me otherwise if you wish.

As I see it, they have been seeded into the series by GRRM and he isn't going to restrain himself because he's afraid of making it too awesome. Oberyn vs. Gregor was quite enjoyable, I think we all agree. But what we are talking about is that TIMES SEVEN.

So this raises a couple of questions. Apologies if we have gone through this a million times before, but I don't recall seeing it recently. Namely:

  • What will be the pretext?

  • Who will be on trial?

  • Who will have their seven incredible champions off the bat and who will have their unlikely underdogs step forward at the last moment (This is clearly established as A Thing when it comes to Trials of the Seven, and also in Tyrion's trial of the one, come to think of it).

  • This is the one I enjoy musing about the most: who will be the fourteen champions?

So, for what its worth, here is some breathless, groundless, and possibly pointless speculation.

I'm thinking Strongboar has been trailed a little - and I'm thinking that having a nickname is definitely going to increase a character's chances of being in the most-epic-melee-ever-penned-by-human-hand. Who else?

I think Robert Strong is a shoe-in.

I think it's kind of obligatory that there's a Bracken on one side and a Blackwood on the other - I'm pretty sure that's a lock.

It starts to get more interesting when you get to characters you actually care about - or at least, that we've lived with for decades now, in some cases.

Loras? Jaime? Brienne? Blackfish? Selmy? Thoros? Sandor? Lonmouth?

Sod it - Darkstar. I realise I'm just spouting names now - but I can't help it. I got to thirteen, nearly there. This is more an emotional thing than anything I've got specific textual support for.

Oh - but there's also got to be the plucky underdog who dies horribly in the opening exchanges (I'm looking at you, Dick Bean/Humfrey Beesbury). So they round out the fourteen.

I'm not even sure how this works... does the person on trial NEED to be one of the participants? Obviously not the case with normal trials by combat, but both Maegor's and Duncan the Tall's had the person on trial actually involved in the fighting.

Dunk's Trial of the Seven didn't result in thirteen deaths, so it is quite possible that this doesn't spell the end for everyone.

That's it really.

I'll just add a couple of random further thoughts: namely, that I think Cleganebowl is quite possibly going to tie in to this; and that the precedent of Maegor's Trial suggests to me that "Maegor with teats" may well be getting her trial by super-saiyan awesome combat rather than just a "normal" trial by combat (but I'm not totally sold on this).

Discuss! [edit: and by this I mean "who would be your dream team(s)?]

Posted Jul 18, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC · edited

2232
heblacc42•

Fossoway v. Fossoway Rd. 2?

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Yes - this time its pomaceous!

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RhoynefahrtNed exploited the workers•

All I know is that something REALLY BAD has to happen to a person's head, to one-up Oberyn and Baelor. Most likely a Dornish person. Come to think of it, even Aron Santagar's head was smashed in a similar way, though not in a trial.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Ha, yes. There is something beautifully brutal about massive head injuries... and you are right, I think it is all about raising the stakes as we head to the finish line. On that basis I predict a massive detonation that leaves a crater-sized hole in the battlefield!

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EstEstDrinker•

In my head-lore the Faith will want a Trial of Seven, which actually will be 7v3 because most of the Kingsguard are elsewhere.

Trant and Blount are gonna die stupidly and Robert Strong will fuck up all seven of the Faith chosen. I can imagine the big guy severing body parts left and right

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RhoynefahrtNed exploited the workers•

According to Lord Ashford, if Cersei can't find seven champions she'd be found guilty automatically. It has to be 7 vs 7, unless that's just a stupid rule they made up to trick Dunk into forfeiting.

Edit: I think Cersei just has to use the Kingsguard that are available (like Aerion, Maekar and Daeron did). She can fill up the remaining slots with whoever she likes

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Padafranz•

The trials in middle age that required a certain number of people to swear your innocence worked on the assumption that if you can't find people who trust you, then the judge shouldn't either, so probably both cersei and the church need to have 7 fighters ready to fight or they lose by default

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EstEstDrinker•

In the case of Cersei, she can buy almost anyone so I guess that wont be a problem for her. If other fighters can join, maybe Ser Tallad would be among them. I always felt that guy had something big coming, plus he needs to save his own life too.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

I remember this now you mention it. I suppose you can have the same general feel if the remaining slots (4-7) are filled by absolute melts, and then Ser Robert proceeds to win anyway. It has that dramatic reversal thing going on nicely even if the numbers are more even than u/EstEstDrinker initially opined.

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TheLazySith•

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens.

I'm almost certain the high sparrow will want a trial by seven.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens.

Oh, nice catch. Yes, that smells of low-key significance.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Oh, now that does sound like fun. Ser Bonifer Hasty? Lancel Lannister? No, we could probably do better than Lancel, he's not feeling very robust any more, is he. But Ser Bonifer and a bunch of other muscly devout types.

Yes, this does sound good - and I think it would be best if this victory was utterly pyrrhic for Cersei - the best way I can see this happening is if he wins while being obviously an undead super-murder-zombie - like say with his head cut off or something.

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EstEstDrinker•

Sure, I imagine Robert walking off looking like a porcupine made of steel like it was nothing.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Obviously the story can and will go in a very different direction from what I anticipate, but I can't imagine not feeling a tiny bit disappointed if this doesn't happen.

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styrrell14•

Something tells me as the royal food taster Blount will be targeted for death by poisoning even before the trial to full Cersei's paranoia.

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EstEstDrinker•

There are certainly hints of Boros being slowly poisoned, but by whom? Tyrells?

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bobbyg1234Neeee!•

SO.. Grrm is obsessed with the scouring of the shire from the end of the lord of the rings. How the story basically ends; but then wait, there's another fight. I think that in the end there will be some small final conflict, lets say its Aegon (or as some people call him fAegon) and Jon as Claimants to the throne.

At this stage all surviving parties will have to have cooperated to beat back the Wights and no ones in the mood to fight but also no one wants to back down so they have one final trial of seven.

For shits and giggles lets say in this scenario it lines up like this

On Jons side is Brienne, thoros, the Black fish, Gendry , Wun wun who in this scenario is all bandaged up and totally not dead, Tormund trying to figure out how to use a lance, and Howland Reed.

On Aegons side is Connington, Duckfield, Barristan, The Red Lamb, Loras, Jorah and the Darkstar there to give them the edge.

Two all star teams from diverse backgrounds and former allegiances beating the shit out of each other to see who sits on the throne.

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Alt_North•

This is fun to think about, but they've also been teasing another Grand Council for the throne. A Trial of Seven meanwhile can be for Cersei or anybody accused of anything. And maybe after some such bloody shitshow, the Lords reflect, "Hmm, maybe next time we should use our words."

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Oh yes, that's got my blood up. Gendry, of course - he's a great candidate. Duckfield too - can't believe I missed him. So you are proposing this almost as the final set piece of a seven book series. I can buy that. Because the Trial of the Seven is so self-conciously climactic, I can see it as the capstone (well, in terms of climactic action at least). Wun Wun though - I'm not sure if he's the kind of fellow you really agree should be allowed to fight against you...

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AutomaticAstronaut0•

I saw a smidgen of hope that a reformed Sandor will be the Faith's champion against Robert Strong, succeeding a Cleganebowl where probably two members of the audience know the real identity of both of them.

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asoiahats•

One detail is that all seven KG are never in the same place — in the White Book scene Jaime remarks that it’s a rare occurrence. Seems to me that all seven will be together for a trial of seven. Whether they’re all on the same side is another issue entirely.

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asoiahats•

Also my theory about cleganebowl is that it’s going to be Robert Strong vs whomever is wearing the Hound’s helm. It would be very GRRMesque to have the Hound defeating the Mountain but make it hollow because it’s not Sandor and it’s not really Gregor either. I suppose that could happen in the context of the trial of seven.

As to whom the Hound will be, I predict either Lem or Brienne. Lem currently has the helm, and it would be appropriate for one of the OG members of the brotherhood to defeat the Mountain, doubly so if it turns out Lem was formerly in the KG.

Brienne is a lot like Sandor in that she’s very knightly but a defining factor is that she’s not a knight, and she’s looked down upon because of how big she is and the way she looks. She’s also becoming more like him because the wounds Biter left on the side of her face will surely leave scars. Wearing the helm would be a natural progression.

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MarkZistjust bear with me•

I have seen the theory floated that Lem is actually Richard Lonmouth, one of Rhaegar Targaryen's two squires.

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asoiahats•

Ah yes that’s the one I was alluding to. I forget that Richard was Rhaegar’s squire and not in the KG. IIRC there’s a line where someone says that if they wash the piss out of the lemon cloak it’d be a cloak of the KG.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

I am going to be so disapointed if Lem insn't Lon. I'm almost more excited for the next Brienne/Jaime chapter to see what Jaime says when he sees Lem than I am to see what happens to Jaime and Brienne!

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Indeed - and one possibility for maximum awesomeness might be that fourteen KG are in the same place at the same time - that is, two full sets of KG for different kings. Although Maegor's ToTS was between the champions of the faith and a random grab-bag of upstarts, it was fundamentally about the legitimacy of his claim...

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Cowboy_Dane•

I’m not so convinced in this mandatory Trial by Seven for the same reason I’m not convinced that the big Varys twist is that he is a Blackfyre. The main series just hasn’t touched on the Blackfyres that much. I know they are a big deal in the extended history and the Dunk and Egg series (also the Trial by Seven). From a literary standpoint, I just don’t see either of these events being that big of a payoff. Simply because they have never been a big part of the main AOIAF series.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

That's perfectly reasonable, but it does depend on GRRM approaching the writing of this epic world with the same assumptions as you have as a reader. It seems as though you think the main stories should stand alone, on their own merits, and that anything that is added to the canon via the back door (Fire and Blood, The World of Ice and Fire, The Dunk and Egg stories) is a cheat in some sense - deus ex machina, or similar.

I'm not sure I don't agree, at least partially. However the fact remains that a tale that is over a quarter of a century in the telling is going to grow and change in the hands of any teller - and especially a "gardener". In other words he can use the historical works that accompany the main sequence to seed ideas that he wants bedded into the history of Westeros but that he simply wasn't able to set up in the first or second book as perhaps he would have liked, because he simply hadn't had them yet.

You just have to look at the inital plot synopsis to see how much the tale has grown and mutated in the telling. Another example is the absence of any of the Blackfyre history until... Storm of Swords is it? But I think now that it is a part of the overall Ice and Fire canon, albeit first introduced to us via D&E, and that now that it is here, albeit belatedly, it is "fair game".

In other words, I think there has been enough mention of Blackfyre (the sword) and the Blackfyres (in general) in the main series that it won't be a rug-pull when the sword inevitably turns up, or Varys turns out to be a Blackfyre (not sold on that personally, but it is a definite possibility) or whatever. It might not have the same impact on someone who has only read the main books, but it will for those like me who love the surrounding fluff, and really, that's the best he can do, in practical terms, to bridge the gap between the epic story he is telling and the real-world limitations that prevent it from being the Platonic ideal of Ice and Fire.

However, all that having been said, Trials of the Seven are a bit different for me. They haven't been mentioned at all in the main series as far as I recall, but if they turn up in the main series they won't be a rug pull - they aren't a deus ex machina in other words - they are just a cool thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. It won't be any less awesome for someone who hasn't read Fire & Blood Book 1 than for a hoary old world book lover like myself (not that I'm any kind of authority or anything).

He is of course obliged to have the occasional Trial of the Seven precedent in all the history and fluff that he has written because he has had so much history and fluff. But if he hadn't written anything but the main Song of Ice and Fire sequence he could drop a Trial of the Seven in to book six or seven and it wouldn't be a rug pull, it would just a think that happens very, very occasionally so hasn't come up much yet (though of course there would be a sly reference to an example from a hundred years prior earlier in the book to offer a bit of context).

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Cowboy_Dane•

A lot of good points. And I didn’t mean the Trial by Seven shouldn’t happen, or wouldn’t be awesome! I just don’t feel like (thematically) it HAS to happen or that it is at all likely.

And you are right. It mostly depends on GRRM style. But so far, any reveals or big revelation have been carefully foreshadowed in the series proper.

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MaxPayloadOPMord of the Sworning•

Sorry! Thanks for your nice reply, I totally didn't notice this. I think I'm probably of the same mind actually - it's not absoultely GUARANTEED to happen, but I think it is a big climactic payload of fun that he'd be remiss to not take advantage of!

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SeeThemFly2•

I wrote this post a little while ago about Brienne and others having to do a Trial by Seven over the whole LSH vs Jaime issue. Brienne is probably a descendant of Dunk, and it would neatly mirror his story in the Dunk and Egg novellas.

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Warhawk_1•

For those who can’t wait, recommend checking out this chapter of Dragon of the North where there is a Trial of the Seven for Jon Snow vs. Gregor Clegane. Note Jon Snow is the reincarnation of the Dragonborn from Skyrim.

Has Cleganebowl, Barristan on Jon Snows side, Lyn Corbett and Berric Dondarrion as participants.

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