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Posted Sep 18, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC
The Christian conception of morality is not one determined by consequences. Someone who watches child pornography might never harm a child; there may be no negative consequences whatsoever; yet the act itself is wrong. Please note that this is just an example, I'm not comparing your daughter to someone who watches child pornography.
Christian morality is instead determined by a relationship between the natural law and the eternal law.
Yes. Which makes it immoral.
How?
If someone or something causes no harm, it is, by definition, not immoral.
Ok, first, NO, and second, people are very good at rationalizing why the harm something does isn't actually harmful.
Why are things only immoral if they cause harm? To go back to my prior example - is it only wrong to view child pornography if it lead to harm, or is it wrong in and of itself?
You have made it clear you are not supportive of their marriage, and would agree with laws preventing their marriage. This is unkind. Your whole belief set is quite unkind to her, and others like her.
If whatever you believe does not make you kind, than I want nothing of it.
Your daughter might live a law-abiding life, but is she happy?
I recently gave my take on homosexuality and parents of gay children in another post which I will post again here. However, I will answer your question specifically further below.
I used to think the same way. This was due to the fact that I had a lot of gay friends and even a friend who transitioned from female to male during my teenage years and early twenties.
Today, though, I don't know anyone from that time who is in a genuine committed relationship. Neither do I know any gay people my own age who do not have either dependency issues and/or very self-destructive, often toxic personality traits.
There are also a number of studies that show that gay life expectancies can be up to 21-years shorter than straight life expectancy. Often, people try to tie this to problems with prejudice. However, from my own experience with the gay community, I think this is more likely due to problems arising from social isolation and drug and alcohol abuse.
When I was in my early twenties, a lesbian girl I had grown up with came out to me and introduced me to the so-called gay scene. Only now when I look back, do I realize that the gay scene was populated almost exclusively by people under 30. I can also now count on one hand the number of gay couples I have ever met over 40.
To put it bluntly, ordinary gay people seem to lose sexual market value after they hit 30, which is around the same time that straight friends start settling down, and the party scene starts to wain.
Then there is the problem of lust. Gay men seem to have a higher sex drive than straight men and lesbians, which results in gay men having more sexual encounters. Ultimately, this makes it more difficult to settle down, especially when it is not possible for a gay couple to conceive and switch the focus of relationships from fun and intimacy to nurturing another life.
To be clear here, I am basing my opinions on real conversations and friendships I have had over the years with gay men and women, some of whom I have known for 20-years and longer.
Given my experience with the gay scene/community, I would now strongly advise parents to think very carefully before blindly accepting a child's apparent choice of lifestyle. Does a child know that the lifestyle they want to embrace might have some major shortcomings? Do they understand that sexual desire is different from love? More importantly, do they understand that there is a third choice and they do not need to identify as gay or straight?
Jesus tells his disciples that marriage is a great gift because some men can't marry. When he says this, I believe he is referring to homosexuals. As a parent, I would console a child coming out as gay, by letting them know that God likely has a purpose for them which will likely involve celibacy for as long as homosexual desires persist.
I would also help them understand the potential pitfalls of a gay lifestyle. However, I would also let my son or daughter know that they still have a choice to be whoever they want to be.
God gives us all free will and it is not the duty of a parent to override this. Gay or straight, we all also sin and can all be redeemed in Christ. This being the case, parents who let their children know that there is a darker, less glamorous side to homosexuality in the long-term, may see children who pursue that life anyway return to God later in the future.
In short, I agree that the worst thing to do as a parent in this situation would be to risk becoming estranged from a child. Whatever, a child chooses, they should always benefit from the unconditional love of both parents. However, parents in this situation should also remind children that they still have a choice. They can choose to act on desires or not. More importantly, God will be ready and waiting for them if the lifestyle they adopt turns out to be less than as rosy as they imagine.
As for how your daughter harms anyone else, consider where we are now in the Western world.
In most countries, gay people can marry and have equivocal rights across the board to straight people. However, there is now a constant push to reshape society further. Drag queen story hours for children, transexual people demanding to be let into public toilets and changing rooms intended for the opposite biological sex, men competing as women in sports, sex education in schools starting as early as 5-years old.
It never stops. As soon as one new right is given, more are demanded that impact everyone in society, and as a result, society is constantly talking about sex, sexual identity, gender, and everything in between.
I believe this happens because of the fact that gay people cannot have children. They feel that something very important is missing, and they try to compensate for not being able to nurture a child, by nurturing society but only in a way that is in-line with their views.
I also believe that the pattern I have outlined is why the Bible gives us the story of Soddom and Gomora, two cities which would be their own societies in the old world, destroyed by God because their inhabitants literally thought about nothing more than satisfying carnal and homosexual desires.
You keep bringing up God killing the Egyptian firstborn in Exodus. He did this after warning the Pharaoh that he would if the Jews were not freed, and appears to have taken the lives of said children in their sleep. Now compare this to the ever more sexually liberated world we live in where babies can be macerated in the womb right up to almost full term in some parts of the U.S.. God took the lives of a few thousand Egyptian children as peacefully as he could 4,000 years ago, to ensure the survival of the Jewish people. By comparison, our supposedly humane, ever virtue-signaling society chops up 125,000 fetuses a day without anesthetic in the womb, before sucking out what's left with a hose in the name of being progressive.
So, is your daughter evil or harming anyone? Directly, no. Right now, though, she already lives in a world where she is protected by all the same legal rights as everyone else. She does have the right to choose who she sleeps with. She can sue employers and even government agencies, businesses, and pretty much anyone who discriminates against her. She can also adopt a child if she wants to.
And yet you are here in search of Christians to argue with on her behalf because their God says please don't be gay. In this case, even if your daughter is non-scene or not an LGBTQ activist, you are still attempting to change other people's beliefs on her behalf.
Also, to be clear here, are you also asking this question on Muslim or Jewish forums? If not, why not?
Might it even be the case, that you are channeling energy you could have used to nurture a grandchild into a kind of quest for revenge against a God you blame for knowing you will likely have none, coupled with the fact that you have a gut feeling that your daughter is in what will ultimately turn out to be an altogether unhealthy relationship?
Whatever your motivations are here, I would advise you to try and let go of what animosity you feel, and just pray to God for guidance.
Wow, this is called "piling on". A strategy used to overwhelm someone. Remember, I only asked two questions. You have just asked me dozens. So unfair.
I will speak to only a couple of your thoughts.
Regarding her happiness. She is totally happy. She has her PhD in Neuroscience and Molecular biology. She does scientific research, and recently stop a Merek trail of an experimental therapy she proved would have very harmful impacts. Currently, she works with children witj aggressive cancers, working to use trail therapies that may save or extend their lives. Her wife is in her third year of medical school. She will be a medical doctor in a few years. And, yes, they will have children, by adopting kids orhers dont want.
They love life. They give back. They are soooooo happy.
Regarding most of your other conjecture, the pain experienced by our LGBTQ citizens can be traced directly to religion, and the toxic environment it creates in their family.
My child was fortunate to not be raised in such a toxic environment.
And, again, this is all about my daughter, and zero about your religion.
If this is all about your daughter and zero about religion, why are you discussing your daughters sexuality on a Christian subreddit?
Also, you have not answered my question concerning whether your daughter is happy. You have only listed how successful she is.
As it is, you saying in other answers I've read, that you have been asking this question for several years, suggests you are obsessed with this issue. Such an obsession is not healthy. This would suggest that either you are compensating for a lack of a real relationship with your daughter, or you are just here to sew discontent.
In either case, I hope you find peace with yourself.
Yes, I did answer your question. I said they are sooooo happy. What more do you need?
And, wow, you think I lack a real relationship with my daughter? Far from it. We are very close. Do I have to send you a screen print of what she said about us on our 39th Anniversary to demonstrate this?
I am at total peace with myself. I am not at peace with folks who demand she is somehow "less than; or try to pick apart our relationship with her just because they want to feel good about their religion.
This sub is "ask a Christian". I thought that was a sincere offer. I was mistaken. My apologies.
Yeah, you don't have a daughter you have a relationship with. You keep responding near-instantly to every comment on this thread with the same "my daughter is so harmless and happy, but your religion is so bad, etc."
Likely you are a troll.
If not, the simple reason God prohibits homosexuality, is because it results in people like you constantly attacking other Christians for their beliefs.
I'm sorry that your daughter can't give you grandchildren, will likely see her relationship breakdown due to infidelity, and is more susceptible to dependency issues and early death than other women her age. However, she made a choice and you have triumphed that choice for her. In this case, no one here can help you or your daughter. You both simply need to get to know Jesus and his true plan for your lives a little better.
Perhaps I am not familiar with the context, but why do you assume or who says that your daughter harms anybody?
However, from a Christian point of view, the criterion for a morally bad action is not necessarily to harm someone else. Actions are be morally bad if they are directed against human nature, as human beings are created. Actions are morally bad if they are directed against man's own nature, as man is created. Thus, in a non immediate way, acting morally badly violates human nature as created by God.
From the point of view of Christianity, man and woman are essentially only human beings together - one flesh. This does not mean that every single person is not entitled to full dignity, i.e. that together as a union man and woman fully realise being human. The same applies to questions of sexuality: In Christianity, sexuality is defined essentially by the fertility of man and woman, i.e. the sexual act is essentially directed towards the procreation of offspring, of new life. This is the essential inner goal of sexuality.
A homosexual relationship therefore lacks both from a Christian point of view: the mutual complementarity of the opposite sex partners and the possibility of offspring from their sexuality.
I care about kindness, facts, empathy, and treating others fairly.
You did not show how my daughter harms anyone. If she harms no one, she cannot, by definition, be immoral. Or "bad". Or an "abomination". Or any other ugly thing.
Just wish folks would leave her alone and not promote laws that harm her life.
I did not claim that your daughter is harming anyone.
I never claimed that you claim that my daughter harms anyone.
I am looking for how my daughter harms others.
Then good luck. I cannot answer this specific question.
Umm...is that a trick question? How does your daughter being considered 'immoral' 'bad' 'less than' etc..harm me? It doesn't. It harms you
In what way? My daughter brings me nothing but joy. We love her exactly as she is. She is near perfect in our sight. We would not change her if we could.
So If she does me no harm, and brings you nothing but joy.. Who are you rattling your stick at? Is her being 'immoral' or 'bad', your projection of what Christians view her as? Did someone religious attacked her for that?
It is constant. Confronted in the airport for holding hands. Being hired, than five days later being unhired for being gay (in Indiana). Religious Relatives moving her from "best babysitter ever" status to bring ghosted (15 years now). The looks. Our legacy church friends claiming she is "less than". A representative of the Oregon Republican party comparing her to a pedophile, and claim her father must of abused her when young (we ended up getting a formal apology letter from the Oregon Republican Party). Friends lost. Being told by our 2nd best friends they had to "pray about" attending their wedding reception. Rejected by an adoption agency The list goes on and on.
This crap does not happen to Christian folks in nearly the same volume.
Hmm.. Reading the Bible does not take away a human's prejudice, it could even feed it.. Give them intellectual ammunition sort to speak..
They don't understand that if deviating sexuality is result of sin, their prejudice of someone with deviating sexuality is also the result of sin. And their prejudice might further lead them to even more complicated sin.. While your daughter's deviating sexuality will remain just that.
"Being told by our 2nd best friends they had to "pray about" attending their wedding reception"
Serious? I mean, I have my dark days where I'm sex/race/fasc/all sorts of 'ist', And I will be explicit and nasty about it.. But praying on whether it's safe to see them....that's..wow.
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And, she is one of the lucky one as we never rejected her. Nor loved her "despite what she was". Instead, there was full acceptance. Period.
I don't know your daughter, but her sins are between her and God, and unless she's specifically asking for advice, all I can say is that I hope God is as merciful towards her as I hope He will be towards me and those I love. I'm not saying what she's doing is not immoral, but many Christians lack compassion and end up confirming the lies used by the LGBT movement to paint us as the villains. For me, your daughter and her so-called "wife" are nothing but victims of that deceptive agenda.
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Her "so called wife"!!!! How awful, mean, and not kind of you!! Yes, she is her legal wife. Yet, you want to impose your personal religious crap onto them. I would never be so awful to someone you cared about.
And, you did not answer my question. Are you saying she will be harmed and hurt for doing absolutely nothing harmful to you or anyone else?
You do not need to concern yourself with orhers painting you and others like you as 'the villains"; cause you are doing an excellent job of demostrating this all by yourself.
If whatever you believe does not make you kind, than I want nothing of it.
Sorry, but it makes no sense to go to a subreddit called r/AskAChristian, ask an intentionally inflammatory question, and complain about others being awful and mean when they simply tell you the truth.
I'm not going to take offense at your attempts to insult me or my faith, nor will I argue with you. This is clearly a very personal matter for you. Bye.
Um, I am here to get an answer to my question: "How does my daughter, or her wife, harm you or anyone else?
I have been asking this for 6 years. No one will give me a rational answer. Over 90% ignore the my question completely.
I am sorry the reality that my daughter causes no harm is sooooo troublesome for you.
Your question has already been answered by others. Whether you think her actions cause harm or not is irrelevant. The sinful act is harmful in itself. If you don't believe that, fine. Don't act like a victim or pretend to be offended when you are the one who voluntarily came here.
We are more concerned that she's harming herself.
Buddy, I’m sorry that the world is as shitty as it is. I’m sorry that you have to ask these questions. But you’re not gonna get the answer you want, and you’d do well to leave your personal life out of future questions. You’ll get better results if you can keep your questions to abstract or hypothetical areas. Instead of “Why do you hate my daughter” , try “Why does YHWH condemn homosexuality” . Probe the root of the problem. And do your damnedest to keep vitriol out of it. It may be justified (and I personally believe it is), but it hinders communication.
Now, if I put on my christian cap, the reason (some) Christians condemn homosexuals is because they think their god does. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality actually causes any harm because their moral system isn’t about harm and benefit, all that matters is what YHWH says. Now I wanna stress that this isn’t what every Christian is like, this is me with my Christian cap on, remembering what I thought when I was a Christian. But I also wasn’t alone in thinking like this
She doesn't.
Thank you so much.
You have given this father a bit of hope and compassion for a portion of the religious community. Nice to know it is not all some kind of "broad brush".
The harm others experience is entirely in their own head. I could go into biblical explanations if you like, but you'll find it's easy to support most anything biblically. My daughter is bi, my son is trans and likes another trans boy. Finding love and connection is far more important these days than "filling the earth." We need loving couples who accept others without hesitation to raise all the kids we've abandoned.
Show her love with no conditions and she will heal the world.
Thank you so much for the encouragement. :)
Morality is not determined by harm or not harm. Morality is determined by God’s character. So what is immoral is defined by any failure to keep his law, not by what causes harm.
So, my harmless daughter is immoral, correct?
Yet, the Christian god concept that supposedly killed all of the harmless innocent Egyptian babies, drowned millions of children in a flood, sends kind folks to a tormemt for eternity for not accepting the morality of "his character"...... is moral.
Am I somewhat accurate here? Why should this father impose this awful religious immorality on his harmless daughter?
If whatever you believe does not make you kind, than I want nothing of it.
We don't know your daughter. Sounds like your here to fight with us and not learn from us
I wish you the best
My daughter is gay. She is harmless. Do those two facts makes her immoral??
I say whenever there is no harm, by definition, one can not be immoral.
So, unless real harm can be demonstrated, she does not deserve to be thought of a "less than". Period.
Lot's of people including Christians are sinners
I don't know her but I will take your word for it that doesn't mean we all don't sin
The only moral standard I'm aware of is the Law
No one called your daughter "less than."
I don’t know anything about you or your daughter, but scripture tells us that all people sin and fall short of God’s standard of holiness.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information about Christianity from. But God has never killed an innocent person. God is perfectly righteous.
Listen, I get that you’ve got some serious anger issues you’re struggling to deal with, but you aren’t helping yourself or your daughter by being so emotional and irrational about this. Obviously you shouldn’t impose immorality on your daughter. But you don’t know better than God. God loves your daughter more than you do. The best thing for her, you, and anyone else is to relate to God rightly through faith in Jesus. This requires submitting to what he says, and it’s the only way for a human to truly flourish.
So, you do not consider the killing of the Egyptian babies, and then millions of children in a world flood to be immoral????? Instead, you consider it to be "perfectly righteous".
This is both sick and immoral.
And, wow, really, this awfulness you are describing love my daughter more than me???? More awfulness.
What rational person would want any part of this awful religious belief set?
If whatever you believe does not make you kind, than I want nothing of it.
Being unkind is a common way to fail, but it's not the only way to fail. (other problems include being a coward, being an enabler, being dishonest, being impure, etc).
One must strive for all the virtues, not just one of them.
I dont know what your daughter has done but we are all immoral to a degree.
Somewhat
He’s not imposing. You can live your life how you want.
I said "Why should this father impose".....nothing said about him imposing.....although I could make a solid case if I desired.
If I am somewhat accurate, wow, what a mean, awful, immoral belief set. If whatever you believe does not make you kind, than I want nothing of it.
My bad then I would say he shouldn’t.
And you listed things that he did with no context, looking at the bigger picture or from his perspective. So the somewhat is the bare minimum for a somewhat.