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r/NYKnicks•
bhoff0804

Some thoughts on tanking and the Heat

I've been pretty against the notion that we should be trying to improve our team with guys who won't be apart of our "core" for the long haul but this Heat team is really making me reconsider. We know the Heat culture and have known for a long time. They're going to simply try as hard as they can to win as many games as possible each and every season. Combine that with hitting on your draft picks that aren't at the top, and picking up dudes off the trash pile who offer you something that you need and it looks like it's a real winning formula. For years it didn't look like a winning formula. They were essentially a rudderless ship, competing to just make the playoffs but that kind of mentality appealed to a star guy in Jimmy Butler who ended up being the dude who puts them over the top and gets them to where they want to go. Even look at last year's Raptors and you'll see the same kind of story.

Moving away from the Heat and Raptors and looking toward the tanking model, you don't really see a situation where it's panned out. The Sixers are obviously the pioneers of this strategy and where exactly has it gotten them? Maybe they were just unlucky getting 2 great players who just don't fit together but that's also the risk you take. We know Hinkie didn't get to finish his vision but I mean he's not gonna teach Ben Simmons how to shoot. It was just not really going to work. That strategy may be the only option for smaller markets but this is freakin NYC. We shouldn't have to bank on some fuckin ping pong balls to get a star player.

I think if we start focusing on getting wins and become less worried about how many ping pong balls we have at the end of the year or how many "maybe they might pan out guys" we have on our roster, we may start ending up with guys who can actually bring us a trophy.

Obviously I'm not advocating for trading everything we have away just to win 45 games next year but there's some kind of middle ground there where if we put our time in and show these guys we're about winning it will end up working out for us down the road. Go out and get a guy like CP3 or a Jerami Grant who might not end up bringing us a chip but at the very least we know that they're going to make us a better basketball team. Establish an identity and something that guys like RJ and Mitch can buy into where they learn how to win games rather than just continuing to do the whole maybe Mudiay can figure it out if he's here.

This has kind of turned into too long of a rant and I could keep going but I'll stop it there I guess

Posted Sep 28, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC · edited

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BroadwayJohnny•

I think it’s more about coaching and team philosophy. Overpaying random vets doesn’t work. Tanking doesn’t work. Just look for the best system fit possible/malleable players that can possibly be high value in every avenue whether it be draft or FA. Teams like the Warriors, the Heat and to a lesser extent last year’s Nets are showing the blueprint for a team to turn things around.

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bhoff0804OP•

i just don't believe last offseason was about trying to compete. We brought in a bunch of role players on team friendly deals where imo our FO thought that we could move those guys for future assets. Maybe Mills and Perry really did think that Taj Gibson and Wayne Ellington were going to win us games but I don't really see it that way.

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spaceninj•

Everybody looking at the Heat, but unfortunately winning in the NBA is going to be more about how the Lakers operate.

I prefer to win with homegrown players, but you ideally have to strike gold with 2 draft picks in 4 years.

Tatum/Brown, Bam/Herro, Klay/Steph, etc.

Basically if the Knicks have the opportunity to make a super team, they have to take it (i don't mean Melo/Rose/Noah).

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bhoff0804OP•

I mean if Lebron had zero vested interest in Hollywood, the Lakers are still just as bad as we are tbh. Idk how that can be considered a repeatable path to being a contender. As far as what you said about striking gold, we got Mitch in the second round and hopefully RJ can continue to progress his efficiency. Now we have 2 selections this year in a weird draft class where the top isn't very good but there is a good amount of depth. This year is the opportunity to get that guy that solidifies our core and also make some moves to get vets that fit around them. Obviously we're not competing for a championship next year but we need to show vast improvement to a 2021 free agent because it could be the greatest FA class of all time. I had been on the train that next year was a wash year and 2021 free agency was pointless to look at but I really think that bringing in CP3 in a deal where we don't lose TOO much and making a 6-8 seed can convince one of the guys in that class that we are a real destination and I think Butler's situation in Miami can be a catalyst for a guy to make that decision.

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spaceninj•

I hope you're right.

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GoldenBoyRecords•

Lakers operate is a Lebron thing. If we are gonna win it will be by player development

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spaceninj•

I don't think that's the future of the NBA unfortunately.

I hope I'm wrong.

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ADH0630•

No team(players) trys to be shit. The Knicks tried to win most years but they went at it the wrong way. Heck they thought last year's team was a playoff team.

The heat and Celtics became good by hitting on their draft picks, great coaching, and a strong culture. They didn't sign or trade for vets to big deals unless they were game changers (butler,Horford, hayword).

We also have to remember they were bad for a while then mediocre before they became good it's not a one year process. Knicks fans have to recognize this is year one of that process since the last attempt failed.

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bhoff0804OP•

I'm speaking more about our front office than the players and coaches. Obviously the players are going to try and win but there is just no way the front office thought that last offseason made our team better. They signed all 1+1 contracts but Randle in an attempt to try and get assets from contenders at the trade deadline. The only one that ended up working out according to plan was Morris.

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DragonEevee1:CAA: CAA•

(Said this in another thread)

In hindsight, like extreme hindsight, Knicks should never be in a position to the tank. Under no circumstances should they ever try to be shit, if they aren't competing, The Knicks should always try to be like the pre Melo team. Stars will join that because it is the Knicks. We should focus on making the right picks, but always trying to compete.

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bhoff0804OP•

We have a chance to go in this direction now. We have as much cap flexibility as anyone, some young talent, and draft assets. We should at the very least be competing with the Magic and Wizards for that last playoff spot next year. With the right moves it's in the cards that we're in the top 10 in the East next season. Force RJ, Mitch, and the rest of the crew to be in those high leverage games deeper into the season to give them a chance at experiencing what it feels like to compete at that level. That turns into them learning how to win those games and breaking into the playoffs which turns into them learning how to win a playoff series and you can keep going down that path. All of that doesn't happen without putting the requisite talent around them as soon as possible. We're in a position this year in the draft to get guys that work around those 2 and there are plenty of role players like Jerami Grant who are the exact players we need that can help us in those high leverage moments.

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DragonEevee1:CAA: CAA•

Agree with all of that, I feel there is a world where you can prioritize development, have vets and not actually tank. I just don't think the Knicks ever found that. The Heat have

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HardtShapedBox•

i feel like tanking probably hurts us more in the long run. clippers and nets made it to the playoffs without superstars and they were rewarded with kawhi and durant/kyrie. butler left a team that was one basket away from the conference finals to go to a lottery team bc their organization was more serious. if we’re bad we’re gonna lose no matter what, but we need to at least establish a reputation of competency and a positive culture. good front office, good coaching, good drafting. let the rest fall into place.

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teknomatic:KnicksA5:•

I think that the process of building a winning team is more complex than people realize. There are too many variables involved to be able to say "just do what the nets did!" Or "just do what the sixers did!" Tanking turned philadelphia into a playoff team. But miami also just made the finals without tanking at all since LeBron left. It's like that old phrase: "there's more than one way to skin a cat" or some shit like that

To me it's more important to be a well run organization from top to bottom. It doesn't matter if we get the number 1 pick if the front office doesn't build a good roster around him, and the coaching staff can't develop him or maximize his strengths. It doesn't matter if we take bad contracts for picks if the front office can't pick and develop the right players with those picks.

Long story short, I put less weight on the method and more on the competence of the people implementing them.

Obviously, historically the competence level in this organization has been abysmal. But if Rose and this staff he's building are as good as advertised, I don't care how they choose to build the team because they would be doing it competently.

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bhoff0804OP•

Obviously it's more complicated than let's just do what x team did. I'm talking more about the front office mentality. We're in a market where tanking shouldn't be a necessity to get a star however we've pigeon holed ourselves from ever being a viable option to sign a worthy max free agent. If we had the mentality that we're just going to put a good product out on the floor rather than worrying so much about developing players I think the rest will come. Of course developing young talent is important but it just can't be the only thing. Building a roster that gels together will lead to wins and getting draft picks who fit around that roster will help their development. We can't keep asking young players to fill roles that they just aren't good enough to fill. That's the missing element of our player development structure imo.

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teknomatic:KnicksA5:•

I agree that the mentality you're talking about can work. I hope that Rose's staff has the ability to effectively execute on it. Because like I said, I don't care how they build this team if they're doing it competently.

I just think development and being competitive are not mutually exclusive. You can try to be competitive and develop players at the same time. The spurs are an example of a team that already does that. I would say that both are equally important.

I also think that development helps to accomplish the goal of becoming competitive. If you can't lure free agents that would make you competitive, then you have no choice but to try to develop the guys you do have into players that make the team competitive. That's the spot we're in now. Big name guys aren't coming to save the day. So we need to see what we can do with RJ, Mitch and all the other young guys. It's not gunna happen over night, but realistically there isn't much this front office can do to turn this roster into immediate playoff contenders anyway.

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MaizeNBlueWaffle:KnicksA5:•

The main thing about the Heat is their scouting, coaching, and player development. They've drafted well, have a great Xs and Os coach in Spolestra and have been amazing with player development. Bam Adebayo got developed and mentored by Juwan Howard before he left and Duncan Robinson was product of their G League development. Then the cherry on top was singing a two way star in Butler

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bhoff0804OP•

That's only in the last 3 or so years though. Take a look at their rosters and cap situation directly post Lebron departure. Only players left from those teams are Dragic and UD so no player was really a guy that you could build around per se. They could have simply blown up that roster and went the route of acquiring draft picks, becoming worse to get a better pick, taking on reclaimation projects, etc. but instead they continued to sign vets and compete as well as they could. 2017 they hit on Bam, 2019 they hit on Herro but that mentality of just competing rather than blowing up their situation was what appealed to a guy like Jimmy Butler. Before this year we couldn't really say that Bam was definitely an all-star and obviously Herro and Robinson were unknowns yet Jimmy Butler still signed there because he knew that Riley and Spoelstra were going to make every effort they could to put him in a position to compete.

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DKBattousai•

The problem is, in the past our Front Office and Coaches were not on the same page. The front office wanted to try to make the playoffs but with the roster they assembled, the previous coaches should've realized it wasn't enough to make the playoffs. They also emphasize playing the best player (usually end up Veterans because they make less mistakes and provide the higher chance for winning games) instead of providing more minutes to give the young players more experience/reps. We needed to throw a lot of the young players into the fire or at least make sure they are the first ones to come off the bench to play significant minutes down the stretch in order to see whether they will be a part of our core going forward. The instability with the coaching staffs really makes it hard for the players to develop because constantly trying to learn a new philosophy/system every year leaves the players confused on where they should go. I am really hoping that this time around, the front office essentially had a clean slate where majority the people was picked by Leon/Wes and instead of being forced to keep certain people on the staff. Hopefully if we give the coaches 3 to 4 years of continuity to build upon what they are trying to accomplish instead of being worried about job security will lead to more success. As fans, we need to understand this is not a 1 season or even 2 season quick fix. This was several decades of internal mess we need to clean up and it's going to take time. As long as we see progress year after year from the young players that is all we can hope for.

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