Wonder where he got his history lessons...
Posted Oct 12, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC
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Yeah I get the point he was trying to make about the entitlement of many middle-upper class white women, but like, was he the best person to be making that point? I know Karen jokes are in right now, but ugh just shut up dude.
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not one word about the proud boys other than to rant on how white women somehow allowed white men to do these things ... Like women are the proverbial mommy managers responsible for All white men shit too?
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Women are given none of the power and all of the responsibility of the behavior of the men around them.
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Thank you! Fuck, everything he said was such bullshit. Am POC and he's dead wrong to try to enforce how we should feel
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I had a similar reaction, it didn't feel great coming from a cis white guy. However I've heard some BIPOC make the case that maybe him saying it will finally get some people to listen that wouldn't otherwise.
I still don't love it, but I'm meditating on that right now.
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I think it’s one of those things like it’s not your story to tell. So it feels wrong. Like those but Seth Meyers does where he can’t say the joke. The joke is funny if amber says it but not if he says it. Since white straight men did oppress white women. It’s punching down not up.
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There are studies showing disadvantaged groups do best in work environments where privileged people stand up for them.
It makes sense, even if it sucks. I'm a privileged dude. Therefore, people listen to me more and take me more seriously for no good reason. So when I say something is racist/bigoted/sexist etc it has more weight and conveys more meaning.
The more I speak up the less that imbalance continues. So we should speak up.
Bill Burr is an odd one. My favourite quote is him on a morning show where hes going after the Church for pedophelia - something morning show hosts are not equipped to handle. The anchor says "aren't you taking it a bit too far?" and he retorts with "didn't the church take it a bit too far?"
I also think that if he wanted to do this bit he could have done a much better job and phrased it with less crass; but on the other hand, we are all here talking about it...
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acknowledge that you’ve taken up someone else’s space to speak is just announcing privilege you’ve taken from someone else. They exist to get less so you get more. This doesn’t make you a hero. It makes you someone who takes advantage of things today just as you did yesterday. This isn’t Changing things as much as you think it is. Systematically, you’re still benefitting from a mismatched position. Acknowledging your voice is louder is just echoing that message more. Now had you had been handed a mic because you’re white and male, and instead of speaking into it on behalf of someone else, you handed that mic off to someone else to give them the ground to speak, THEN you’d be make the change. You’d be making it less about white men, and sharing the stage.
And while people are talking about it, this isn’t a credit to white men like bill burr. It should be a discredit that, a white, unaware male with a mic to speak louder than everyone, once again he fucked it up so bad others had to come up and clean up after him.
This doesn’t make him a hero. This makes him yet another toxic example, which has already been done over and over, and a low bar specimen that men who are exampling their achievements off of are saying “see? Us being mediocre is a good thing! Cuz it’s everyone else’s job to clean up after me”
Exampling bad just to get the topic to talk about bad is just hypocritical. He’s no martyr. Do better than this.
Many books about this was written in the last decade. Bill burr didn’t start it. He just spoke toxic language to get a toxic ear on it. If anything, if this is what took you to listen, you should really be much more taking notice you weren’t listening and reading the material on this stuff in the last decade.
“So you want to talk a about race” - ileoma oluo 2018
“White fragility” - robin diangelo 2018
Are a few.
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I was not defending him. Just sharing a perspective.
Aware of those concepts.
I get what you're saying. But I don't think thats a truism. My body at protests and my voice in discourse pushing for people to listen to and take seriously my colleagues is not taking their space. It is enhancing it. I was going to get to talk anyway because I'm a white dude. Using it to draw attention to or fight for someone else is the best use of it.
And if they aren't there? Or they've spoken and been ignored? I should stand up. Otherwise I'm complicit.
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It’s true many people are now talking about stuff they should and read more material to be more aware but it’s also going to be true he’s going to take credit for fucking it up and all the better results that came of it. Much like trump does his “if I was able to do it, and i shouldn’t, it means things should change so that I couldn’t .”
That makes me smart.
About that Trump didn't pay federal income taxes.
On occasion, four times, we used certain laws that are there. And when Secretary Clinton talks about people that didn't get paid - [false claim extracted]- Now, if you want to change the laws, you've been there a long time, change the laws. But I take advantage of the laws of the nation because I'm running a company. My obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies.
Like ‘take full responsibility for I am a white man that should be absolved of using any common sense or moral ethics before I act. (Meanwhile I’ll criticize anyone else). Tell me ‘no’ instead of expecting me to think better than this” which is like, ok so you’re taking up a fight against racism, but at the same time you’re also kinda sexist and racist to everyone, including your own group, for marking this as a standard behaviour of white men to be expected of as well as absolved?
Exampling bad just to get the topic to talk about bad is just hypocritical. He’s no martyr.
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Yeah, hearing that perspective made me pause but at the end of the day it's still punching down and I don't love it.
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Agreed, sure we can talk about privilege and entitlement of certain groups of people. But you shouldn't be going on about the privilege and entitlement of groups LESS privileged and entitled than you. Also, we don't need to be spurning progress in pursuit of perfection, which is what a lot of these "points" he is making are. White ladies aren't perfect so they should be ridiculed and... not participate?
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This! It's less that he's explicitly wrong, but a white man has zero business punching down on white women and the LQBTQ+ community.
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Bill found a way to say reprehensible shit without recourse by pitting oppressed groups against each other. He’s using POC’s experiences to deliver his message to white women: shut up.
Oh and if someone finds what he says reprehensible, it somehow strengthens his point.
Dude is a bigotry innovator.
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Yeah he's been shitting on women in general for years. It's like his thing, his brand. He just found a new way to do it and people found it amazing. He can fuck right off.
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I really don’t want to start anything, but the book White Fragility has an entire chapter on White women, “White Women’s Tears.” It really changed my perspective a lot, and it was the heart of what he was getting at. Did he say it super crass? Yes. Did I cringe hard at most of the monologue? Hell yes.
Wanted to provide some context for an alternate view, since 4 months ago I would’ve had a similar reaction.
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I can appreciate the fact that white women are blind to/benefit from their own privilege whenever it’s convenient. I haven’t read white fragility so I can’t comment (it’s on my list though). I’m also Asian/white fwiw, and understand that that doesn’t give me insight into black/latinx/indigenous experiences in the slightest.
I have a problem with someone who has never been about standing up for what’s right suddenly using the veil of wokeness to continue saying the same dumb shit he’s been saying for years. Any validity in his argument is therefore accidental: do we really think he’s done his homework on white women’s tears? Do we think he gives a fuck about POC, truly? Or do we think he finds women annoying, entitled, bratty, self-absorbed, and this is it just a convenient way to continue dismissing them in the wake of “cancel culture” which we know he’s also obsessed with?
Idk. I should probably just read the chapter you’re referencing before doubling down on this point, so if I’m completely off base/showing my ass on this then please tell me.
Also I appreciate you bringing this into the discussion and I hope I didn’t come off as negative toward you/aggressive.
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It just looks like he’s another MRA on reddit echoing complaints about women allowed to drive cars and grumbly that women are allowed to work and have things.
“WOMEN! SUVs! SHOES!” Like...This was his joke to deliver something by a white man on stage with another microphone allowed to speak on behalf of everyone. This is a disaster.
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Oooo a friendly politically charged conversation on reddit! Hell is freezing over.
Thanks for your openness in your response! I’ve never watched Bill Burr, so my response was absolutely net new. I didn’t love the cancel culture part/me too, but I did find the pride months part funny and got the core of what he was saying about White women.
Appreciate the context on your race, I’m very White. So pale most foundations are too dark, and grew up in the suburbs. I do feel he did his homework on White women’s tears because his wife is a stunning and powerful Black woman and he’s got mixed race kids. I’m sure this has been discussed at home, and it’s been something others have been saying for a while but never to this level of exposure.
The chapter is extremely short in relation to the book, so warning if you purchase it. The overall gist is White women historically have been allowed to cry and have emotions, and black women have absolutely not. The author runs racism/diversity seminars and gives a lot of excellent examples from her classes. Furthermore, White women’s tears have caused great pain because the men that love us tend to react when racially charged — Emmett Till being an extreme example. On a smaller scale, all of the White women who call police being “threatened” by Black people. Luckily that’s becoming Not Okay, but the damage is there — people respond to White women’s tears, and we can make situations about us.
This is probably pushing it, but (after reading up on this subject) the overall response about his monologue has been very #NotAllMen to me. Of course all White women aren’t like that, but we can look inward to hear the truth in his thoughts and not be defensive that it’s about us exactly.
Bleh, I feel awful being the one typing this out, being white. My BIPOC friends, I hope I did the subject justice. I still have a lot to learn.
Edit: Typos
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That’s a really interesting comparison to the #NotAllMen response. I hadn’t thought about that but I think there’s definitely truth to it. Brilliant observation 👍🏼
I don’t disagree with his message about white women privilege etc. I disagree with people celebrating the truth in his point - that white women benefit from white supremacy - as if he is speaking in good faith. Like he’s speaking up against this injustice to protect POC, which I don’t think he’s doing. Even if he does have a black wife or mixed kids.
Re: Emmett Till (and the immeasurable fucked up echoes of white women lying). This is in no way to excuse the woman for lying about Emmett, or any white woman for lying about any of this shit, ever, because it’s resulted in endless pain as you’ve already pointed out.
I think it is worthwhile to acknowledge, however, the many examples of consensual sex or relationships which resulted in the same atrocities being committed. The reason I bring those situations up is this: White women do not, did not, have the same power as white men in society. If anything, white women have historically functioned as a convenient excuse for white men to do whatever they wanted to do. Because the violence and racism and oppression has never been about protecting white women.
It’s been about white men finding ways to outwardly rationalize and justify actions that preserve that power.
And this is meta because it includes Bill Burr. His whole bit is an example, to me at least, of him finding an acceptable excuse to say what he wanted to say.
You know what I think it is? You can tell he wrote this bit from a defensive standpoint. Like he’s arguing with people (women) who have criticized him. He’s been getting shit for being a misogynist for years and the jokes read like he’s been in the shower thinking of reasons why women shouldn’t criticize him, or why they’re wrong, or why they shouldn’t have the right to say anything about him to begin with. The tell for me is in his hyper focus on cancel culture.
This has been very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me ♥️
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*BIPOC
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Jesus. Thank you.
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So the thing is: A lot of what he said is correct.
That doesn't change the fact that this is a man who made a career off of misogyny and made a comedy special about how "no doesn't mean no" weaponizing this to piss on women and get his mostly male audience riled up against us. And of course, he had to throw in jabs at metoo and the queer community as well.
That also doesn't change the fact that a lot of white women weaponize our oppression to silence and shit on people of colour. We co-opt movements that aren't about us.
Both of these things are true at the same time. I feel like I've seen several arguments about this where the two sides are arguing each of these points back and forth and, like, both are true at once.
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Bill Barr's niche is being an asshole and saying "am I wrong????!?!?!!!!"
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“If you don’t laugh, it’s not because I’m unfunny - it’s because you’re fragile” - the teeniest weeniest fragile baby boy
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I heard this is Nadja's voice from What We Do in the Shadows.
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As it turns out... you can be both!
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Can I get some context here? I can't figure out who is meant to be speaking those phrases in quotes and who is being referred to.
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Basically, a dude who thought he was being extra clever by blaming white women for the actions of white men. And, now a majority of Reddit is eating his shit up including some of the people on this sub. Sadly.
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Wait, now I’m even more confused. Can you explain more?
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As awful as this is going to sound, gets out blanket, covers herself up, takes deep breath.
breath
They don’t go together. The reference to “a group of people who have never been enslaved” is a reference specifically as to why Pride Month is June when it is sunny and nice out and Black History month is February, a short month that is overcast, cold and it gets dark at 4pm. The next part of the joke was moving Black History to July so if you are gay and black, that’s 61 days of celebrations.
“You stood by us” is directed to privileged white women who were saying they are oppressed too. Women saying how tough it is with their heated seats and SUVs comparing themselves to minorities in America.
Trust me, I watch these things a few times so I can share the videos with my dad only when they are pre-cleared of liberal content. (Which is spotty because once I mentioned the finale of Transparent and I then had to research whether a trans woman in government had kids for him.)
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It was pretty much not cool not funny. Just don’t dude.
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Im not commenting on how right or wrong his jokes were, but in context his jokes are framed as ridiculously racist/sexist or insulting and then he goes on to describe something much less ridiculously racist sexist or insulting in his longer monologues. Out of context he is more ridiculous.
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the rest of the bit he says for both he and her to sit down and listen. he's not putting himself above white women. i feel this point is being glossed over by the meme.
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Thats what i got from it too. White women have priviledge and sometimes white feminism forgets about poc. His other shows frame things ridiculously like the snl one as well. Some people just wont like his stuff. And that is fine.
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Thankyou! In context it's quite clever/funny. His humour isn't everyone's cup of tea. He can be abrasive/offensive, but I reckon some people who find this offensive, may be the entitled exclusionary feminists he is talking about.
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ELI5?
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Someone else said it better below:
Bill found a way to say reprehensible shit without recourse by pitting oppressed groups against each other. He’s using POC’s experiences to deliver his message to white women: shut up.
Bill Burr had a monologue on SNL where he continued his long history of saying problematic things. This time he did it in a way that allows fans to complain that his critics are racist. Really people are just pointing out that Burr has his own deeply problematic history and other comedians have made the point (that white women also act as oppressors) much better & in a funnier way without being problematic themselves. But misogynistic reddit bros are eating it up because it makes them feel better about hating women.
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He’s a piece of shit, but he makes a good point. White women are one of the most responsible parties for the deaths of black men.
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White women are one of the most responsible parties for the deaths of black men.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but could you explain how they are one of the most responsible?
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Next to white men, white women are the biggest proprietors of racism in America. White women, instead of being directly violent to black men, they call the police or tell white men lies about black men. This in turn gets black men murdered. Also, before you say “but it’s the white men who are being violent”, no. It’s not. Proxy violence is just as bad as normal violence. If you get a hitman to kill someone, you and the hitman share equal blame.
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That makes total sense, those white women who have been calling the cops are racist assholes who purposefully ignite racist police violence. Thank you for answering my question!
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No problem. I’m not trying to defend that asshat in any kind of way, but it’s an important topic and I think it should be discussed more. Of course, we are all marginalized groups and should hold solidarity with each other.
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Of course someone was gonna post this here. This sub is rife with white feminism. Lots of POC on Twitter (including me) agree with what he said. Maybe talk about that too instead of jacking other people’s opinion (as always). Every time some wants to hold white women accountable for something there’s always a lot of #notallwhitewomen on this sub.
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This sub definitely has a problem with white feminism. No question. However, Bill Burr's critique is poor, he blames white women for the crimes of white men, tries to create strange "competition" for whose oppression is worse... it's just not good. And all this from a cis white man with a history of attacking women, LGBTQ+ people, disabled people, feminism as a whole, the list goes on.
There is definitely room to critique white women. Many people have risen to the task and made thoughtful, interesting, funny points about how second wave/white feminism is deeply problematic. Bill Burr just isn't one of those people, and he really isn't in a position to try again until he can make amends and learn from his own transgressions. As is, he is just giving his fellow Normal White Men™ an excuse to hate on women.
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Bill Burr didn't blame white women for the crimes of white men, he stated that they are just as complicit as white men. Bill Burr talking about this as a cis white man is significant because white men have historically built systems that always protect white women. BIPOC have raised various concerns about them but these criticism get shut down by white men.
Also, I don't understand how this sub has tried to call out the problematic nature of white feminism? During the BLM protests, there were several posts about white women feeling uncomfortable about being called Karens and so many were agreeing with them. Comment from POC asking them to stop posting these things kept getting downvoted.
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That's the problem though- white women are not as complicit as white men. That's not to say white women don't have tons of issues surrounding the rise of first and second wave feminism- it's a very real problem, and white women have a fuckton to answer for.
It's disingenuous to claim that white women have somehow equaled the misdeeds of white men though. The "protection" of white womanhood is not good for white women. The very notion of white men needing to protect white women is fundamentally patriarchal bullshit imposed on white women. Just look at white women's representation in politics, media, and business compared to their white, male, counterparts.
Bill Burr conveniently ignores these facts to make fun of white "Karens" and tries to make the argument about equal complicity under the guise of being a "woke" white man arguing for POC. Burr's larger comedy oeuvre proves that he is just another problematic comedian, not an ally. Right now his SNL monologue is just being used by white men who needed someone to excuse their casual misogyny.
This sub definitely has a problem with white feminism. Sometimes commenters call each other out for it, sometimes they don't. I don't think calling out the blatant hypocrisy/call to white, male misogyny in Burr's SNL monologue is white feminism- I think it's just calling Burr out on his bullshit "allyship".
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Who is calling Bill Burr an "ally" anyways? I never considered him one and I never will. He is a comedian who made a joke. that's it. There were some POC who found truth in what he said but then white women had to come in and tell us how to feel. Since you think only white men talk about this, you can watch Michelle wolf's stand up. She talks about these similar issues Michelle Wold stand up on white women
Whatever, I'm exhausted from explaining myself to white people especially when they refuse to understand.
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white women are not as complicit as white men
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Indigenous queer person here, since that seems to be a necessary qualifier.
A white man blaming white male fuckery on white women, and playing oppression olympics between the LGBTQIA+ community and the POC community isn’t holding anyone accountable, it’s starting a bar fight between other patrons to skip out on your tab.
Sure, there is truth in what he’s saying, and yes these conversations are ones that need to happen (but absolutely need to happen outside of a white cis heteronormative male existence). But his intention is to distort truth to convenience him and alleviate white men like him from the responsibility of their actions by putting marginalized groups against each other, not to actually get white women or cis gay men to evaluate how their privileges allowed them to leverage their freedoms against the freedoms of other people.
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I think Burr is great, but this set felt under cooked. He hasn't been touring so this is likely the first time this material has hit the stage. Remember, it's a joke, he's a comedian. The whole point is not to take him seriously.
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Marital rape wasn't even considered a crime until much too recently. Piss off.
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And in some states is still legal.
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I can't decide what's worse: 1) A cis straight white man bringing up cancel culture and #MeToo and excusing John Wayne's behavior as a "product of his time" - but then going through America's long history of white women's behavior. He needs to hold misogynists to the same standard. 2) Him targeting LGBTQIA, which seemed more out of left field for me. Yes, men like Pete Buttegieg benefit from their cis white maleness, but cis straight white men like Burr are the biggest beneficiaries of white male patriarchy. 3) Him implying at the end that it's the "liberal" white men like him who are being rational and sitting down and listening - and that white women should shut up and sit down. Since when have white men sat down and shut up? And Burr was a Bernie Bro who claimed that racist white men don't exist because Obama won the presidency (during an appearance on Conan). Some lovely misogynistic comments on Hillary also. You can also Google his misogynistic "set" on Michelle Obama, telling her to shut up and to stop piping in because she wasn't elected, Barack was. And no, Burr being married to a black woman doesn't mean he's not racist or sexist. We should all know this by now. 4) And then you have the white women who are clinging to this video in a desperate attempt to not be seen as a "Karen." How many of these white women ignored WOC saying the same thing Burr did? It says EXACTLY who white women are willing to listen to: a misogynistic cis straight white man. These women are fluttering on social media calling each other out. I mean...okay? Maybe some of that energy can be spent on the cis straight white men they're dating or married to? You know the ones where 62% of white male voters voted for Trump? The ones that were more likely to vote 3rd party or not all? THOSE guys? White women are literally in bed with men whose values are in complete opposition to theirs. It's time for white women to ask themselves some hard questions. 5) White men using the term "Karen" is a way to deflect from cis white male misogyny and racism. It's used to blame white women rather than taking a hard look at white male power and white male violence. Had Burr called his own out, his SNL set would have been amazing - and this would be a different conversation. He didn't. He's a coward and just tapped into misogyny instead.
Back up.
Marital rape is a thing.
I think this needs an approach as a strength in numbers and media messaging as picking personal relationships is pretty dangerous possibly for one individual sometimes to take on themselves.
Eg: I agree it’s Easy to say it’s not hard for anyone to walk away on a first date full of obvious red flags where a dude tells a racist joke and you just call him out but then you still gotta run like the wind so he doesn’t like...murder you for being an ESJAYDOUBLEYOO
Or ghost and make sure they don’t have your address.
However holding up singular relationships among women on a minimalist level as if they are enablers of men is still kinda not holding men responsible for themselves. something , as you’ve even pointed out, these abusive guys have been leaning on in heavy. Eg: bill burr’s shtick here which still skates over the domestic abuse stats at home and saying “women, you’re just letting us get away with it”
domestic violence against women alone in houses with men since covid skyrocketed. Just something to consider in safety.
I’d even go so far as to say “well that guy is an ass. blink twice if you want me to call the police for you” before assuming she’s not already tried standing up to him.
This isn't about women being responsible for men's behavior or the potential for domestic violence. I'm talking about common low level behavior among “liberal” white women who are simultaneously complicit with white male conservatism, all while advocating for liberal causes. It's a weird cognitive dissonance where these women will passionately call out WOC and “Karens” rather than their own boyfriends and husbands. White women consistently give "passes" to these white boyfriends and husbands - "Jeff's not really a homophobe or a bigot. You just have to get to know him." These women will be passionate about a cause, but then date or marry men who don't care. They'll dismiss a boyfriend or hubby's casually homophobic or racist comment with "Oh, you know how Jeff can be," with a shrug, as if it's no big deal, as if he’s not voting based on this belief. “He doesn’t really feel that way.” Meanwhile, these women will attend things like the Women's March alone, claiming hubby is a "feminist" but, you know, he just couldn't make it or marches aren't his type of thing, etc. There were so few men at the 2017 march in my city, it was disturbing. Lots and lots of white women, though. And they’ll raise children with these men. The white divide among men and women in the 2016 election shows how large that cognitive dissonance is.
Yeah I don't see the passionate women tolerating men who don't care. I see lots of complicit women who aren't particularly passionate about these things with conservative men. I don't see adult women passionate about social justice with conservative, bigoted men.
I agree with your very last point; that's rarely a pairing. However, the Women's March in January 2017 was a literal sea of passionate white women whose partners didn't bother to show. Even the book The Handmaid's Tale made a fictional point of stating that there were marches as women began to lose their rights, but few men attended them. It's a thing.
My mom is :/ it sucks real bad
Thanks for breaking down his monologue, I knew there wouldn't be anything worth while there and just skipped the episode as a whole except for the cold open.