Source
r/WoT•
TheBatsford

Contemporary Reaction to Tylin

SpoilerA Crown of Swords

Hey folks, so I saw quite a few Tylin-related posts and how her actions quite clearly constitute rape. Now to us today(and even as far back as when I first got heavily involved with the WoT community 10ish years ago give or take), it seems obvious. But what was the in the mid/late 90s when aCoS first came out? The reason I ask is I've been watching reruns of 30 Rock and some of the joke themes is stuff that today would never fly and that we rightfully acknowledge as inappropriate(sexual harassment of subordinates, basically rampant tokenism, etc...) and that show is not even that old.

Have the mores changed that much vis-a-vis Tylin's actions in about 20-25 years or was it also overwhelmingly viewed as rape, or at the least icky back then?

Posted Oct 21, 2020, 10:48 AM UTC

1518
BradyDill•

I wasn't around, but from what I've read of others answering this question in the past, most people viewed it as being as funny as RJ intended it to be. That said, there was also a huge uproar, particularly on forums, and the whole schebang was for many people the first time they were faced with the double standard with regard to the rape of males.

Today: Overwhelmingly viewed as rape, icky, and a misguided attempt at humor from somebody living in the past (and I genuinely don't blame RJ very much for this - he's a product of his time, and I can't imagine if he were around right now he would stand by his choice then).

1996: Mostly not a big deal; some found it funny, others saw it as we do now. Most were just disturbed or didn't really take much note.

9
Halaku•

I was around, and u/BradyDill nailed it.

As u/TheBatsford pointed out, comedy evolves over time, as does society, and you have to use the cultural context.

That said, there's something to be said about misunderstandings and presumed consent, and with Harriet attached to the project, I'm really curious to see how this is adapted to screen.

5
Mortuan•

I was around, and you are very much right. The vast majority viewed it as a joke.

4
erunion1:AielL::AielR: (People of the Dragon)•

This has never not been controversial.

We do - out of interest - know RJ's intent:

INTERVIEW: Jun 21st, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Brian Ritchie

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.

Essentially, he intended to use humour to soften the blow, while he forced the readers to examine the double standard as well as 'to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls'.

On my first read-through as a pre-teen in the early 'oughts I didn't really get it, and just saw the humour.

On re-reads, I got it. And it has significantly helped and informed my understanding of what women go through in these circumstances. But I don't find it at all funny anymore.

Personally, I think RJ shouldn't have tried to use humour like he did, and should have played it exclusively as serious... but this was the 90's, and Jordan was neither perfect nor prescient. In being imperfect, he made mistakes. In being non-prescient, he didn't anticipate the shifting cultural attitudes where people today are willing to accept things like this talked about openly and seriously, where we weren't before.

7
jay_dar:Sredit: (Valan Luca's Grand Traveling Show)•

Can this be sticked to every Tylin post so the people who disagree that it is indeed rape will stfu?

2
MapCompact:Dice: (Dice)•

I read these in the early 2000's originally. I was offended, but not by Jordan for writing it. I was offended by Tylin's actions.

She is a Queen abusing someone under her. I don't think this is an uncommon thing throughout history, and especially paired with the culture where women do as they please, it makes a lot of sense.

Potentially controversial: Even if this book was written today, it makes sense and IMO adds depth and I think still could/should be written as is.

5
Sightien•

I started reading like 94, 95. I know teen me was quite disturbed by it all, especially that nobody took Mat seriously.

3
Parraz•

I am starting to come to the opinion that, if judged by more 'modern' standards, Robert Jordan would probably qualify as a bit of a neckbeard.

Now I do understand thats not exactly a pleasant thing to think of an author of a series we all love, and it isnt fair to judge somone with modern thinking on something that was more 'normalised' 30 years ago. But I cant seem to shake the thought that if you read certain scenes/events (like the Tylin rape) through the lense how how a neckbeard might write it, then it kinda, ish, if you squint through foggy glasses in a darkend room makes a little sense.

and it makes me feel dirty and wrong just thinking of it that way.

3
Halaku•

I've never heard of "Neckbeard" and "Vietnam vet with two tours of duty as a helicopter gunner" being concepts applied to the same person.

6
Parraz•

Probably not. But I'm sure you can think of young men fresh out of the army that might qualify.

Same deal, different era.

2
haus_der_luege:BlacksmithPuzzle: (Blacksmith's Puzzle)•

Warning: here be spoilers.

Here's the reread post from ten eyars ago in which there is still some heated dispute. At the time the book was published the internet and chat forums were in their infancy, everyone was anonymous, and holy hell did people get Mad Online over this specific incident.

3
TheBatsfordOP•

Thank you for that thread, it's interesting to see how even 10 years ago this was not seen as clear cut.

1
haus_der_luege:BlacksmithPuzzle: (Blacksmith's Puzzle)•

The entire reread is excellent and if you have the time more than worth the effort. Hell, it's probably shorter than actually rereading the series, though not by much.

Edit: so much so that it's actually linked in the sidebar of this subreddit.

1
Morda808:Dice: (Dice)•

As an OG reader, and a male, it never bothered me, and I took it to be humorous, as the author intended. If I read it for the first time now...I would think it was "icky" and in poor taste.

1
Wot106:FlameOfTarValon: (Brown)•

I though it was icky, but a bit deserved. Turn about is fair play type idea.

The only bit of humor I found was in Mat's internal monologue as he started accepting it.

-9
BradyDill•

I understand why you thought that back then, but we’re in agreement that it wasn’t a turn-around, right? Mat doesn’t go around raping people. He even thinks to himself early on something like “What’s the fun in the chase if she doesn’t want it?”

12
FusRoDaahh:AielL::AielR: (Maiden of the Spear)•

"Turn about is fair play"

When did Mat physically force himself on someone? He is a player, but always very respectful and never did anything physical unless the other person was into it.

If she had just aggressively flirted, maybe sure.... but she pushed him into a chair and started taking his clothes off as he was trying to stop her. VERY different thing.

10
Pulpics•

It was hardly deserved. Mat deliberately avoided chasing women who didn't want to be chased

8