Source
r/karate•
karainflex

teaching kata -> bunkai or bunkai -> kata?

Style founders and other masters say that it is important to perform kata with an opponent in mind (or more general: with an appropriate mindset).

That made me think (because kata tends to become more self purpose or a sports discipline): we teach kata first, then bunkai to people who probably never were in a fight... so wouldn't it make more sense to switch the order (or have more focus on application first)? Like teaching proper applications and drills and such and then teach the kata to memorize everything.

Has someone done it this way? What is your experience?

Posted Nov 7, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

1614
PrincessAloha_•

Yeah you have a good point. Sometimes for more advanced katas, we break it down to omotes to better understand the kata.

The way I see it is, teaching the various bunkai is there to help better understand the kata and flow of techniques which i can see how some people are more focused on the practical application of it than the deeper context its intended lol

3
mlh1996•

I teach applications first.

I’ve even thought about going with the Judo model, and not bothering to teach the actual kata until advanced kyu rank, but I still think there’s some value in the solo practice.

3
shihobunkaiShito Ryu•

I teach kata first so the students have an understanding of the mechanics of the movements - then the bunkai in a co-operative mode so they learn how they apply to an opponent - then the bunkai uncooperatively so they can learn how resistance feels

3
thiccibprimeShito-Ryu•

I think nowadays this is probably the way to go most of the time. Doing the bunkai properly will be hard if one does not understand the mechanics behind it

2
rob_allshouseUechi Ryu•

So having done Kenpo and Uechi, that go in opposite directions... I’d say it depends on the kata. Basic kata, I’d go kata first. Ones with simple moves with many applications, if you start with the bunkai, your mind is going to be trapped there.

But if the kata has some weird spinning jump moves that are entirely impractical except within a narrow practical application (Kenpo, I’m looking at you), then bunkai first.

3
Tezmir94•

Personal preference of how I learn is bunkai -> kata.

2
shotokanman70•

I often teach kata bunkai first. I have found that this approach is much more meaningful to students. It gives kata purpose. I always do this fo rbeginners.

2
Wilbie9000Isshinryu•

It tends to be a circular process.

I start mostly with teaching the form itself. I believe that correct body structure and mechanics are very important. Bunkai can help a student conceptualize the movements, so there is definitely bunkai - but the emphasis early on is still very much towards form.

As the student becomes more familiar with the kata, the emphasis shifts more towards bunkai. The whole point of learning the kata is to be able to use it for something.

However, as the bunkai progresses, the underlying form is refined. More subtle parts of the kata start to become more important - shifts in balance, timing, etc.

From there the emphasis shifts back and forth. Refine the form, explore the bunkai, refine the form some more...

2
karainflexOPShotokan•

I know what you mean. It combines all other answers given so far. The follow up question then is: where to start with beginners. But maybe it does not matter (except when time or personal preferences have more weight), because every part in the circle will be covered over time.

1
ikilledtupacShodan•

That’s how American kenpo started, they teach the application first then kata. I didn’t like it as much because it turns into a “he does this then you do that and then you’re the winner!” Monkey steals the peach.

1
karainflexOPShotokan•

This is a common trap when bunkai is shown (the if-then trap). The defender needs to take and keep the initiative during the fight. This way it is possible to enforce reactions in a predictable way, which can be used to finish the fight. Otherwise it allows the opponent to keep the initiative and if he does not do the stuff the defender is waiting for then the application will not work.

1
ikilledtupacShodan•

I remember when I started at my current dojo about ten years ago, I asked my Sensei

“So is it better to dodge, or block, a strike?”

...pause...

He just says “I dunno. Just don’t get hit!”

1
karainflexOPShotokan•

Unfortunately there is no best answer as every situation is different and details matter. But I agree that the answer could have been better because there are better answers :-)

1
ikilledtupacShodan•

I thought the answer was perfect! You never know.

1