Becoming the monster you swore to destroy speedrun (any %)
Posted Dec 10, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC
16532
The average Vrul citizen has a higher standard of living now. Plus they aren’t Captain insaneo genocidal maniacs. I support the Antares solution.
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I'm not sure what part of the Antares solution made it necessary to steal the vast majority of their territory and resources. I'm fail to see how that contributed to fixing their economy and installing a democracy. Pretty sure if we'd let them keep their territory but done everything else the same, they'd be better off than they currently are.
Not to mention the obvious parallels with what was done to our fellows on Earth.
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Another prevention scenArio. The Vrul weren’t in a position to claim territory further north before the Anthorians did. Then Antares would be even more boxed in they already are.
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The entire north was their territory, before the war. And it was part of the occupation government's turf after we claimed it. We only took it away when we decided to make them a vassal, because we'd rather keep the resources and Gaia world to ourselves.
We fixed their economy. We installed democracy. None of that required taking the vast majority of Vrul territory away. That was purely selfish on our part.
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You’re the expert I’m sure but I don’t think Vrul owned all the area Antares now owns in the north. Antares would not be able to claim that if they had returned all lands to the Vrul. And it would unconnected, which causes other issues.
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Wow
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I don't want to believe it. But it's what happened, isn't it?
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Seems so.
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The problems is geography (or other word that mean map of galaxy--).
If Vrul didn't block the only way for Antares to expanse north, then they will get more original territory back. The reality is Antares need more space and resource, and the corrupted and genocidal Vrul government is just in the perfect situation for casus belli.
But overall for average Vrul citizen is better than they original government and they still retain most of their highly populated systems. So I still think it is a best outcome for average Vrul.
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I mean, the definition of need is funny here. If the Vrul were a peaceful society with the same borders, we would have accepted that we couldn't expand father North. We don't "need" that territory, because we would survive without it.
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I agree that the Antares wasn't really 'need' the territory as Marc can play tall if he has to (but wide vs tall playstyle is other story). If the Vrul is peaceful, everything will be different.
But what I liked about this is... Antares isn't a benevolent nation.
Yes, Antares is on the 'good' side all things consider but they still acted in their own best interest depend on the situation. And the oppotunities of not only defeat one of the largest threat at that time and secure more territory and resource is simplely undeniable.
I liked when they represented this gray true of human nature as Antares still has their highest goal to liberate UTP which they need to became much stronger.
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This will never eeeeever backfire! I mean, it always ended well for our ancestors on Earth!
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The Antares Burden, we must protect the galaxy from itself.
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In fairness, the Vrul were actually going to starve to death. One planet, full city districts, 0 agricultural districts. No mines, no generators, no ability to build the farms they needed. The end of Vrul sovereignty prevented famine from finishing off the Vrul survivors.
Stealing their land and vassalizing them instead of giving them proper independence wasn't necessary to solve this problem tho. We just really wanted that Gaia planet. And it's not like Antares has enough planets. Only 4+ habitable worlds in our borders we've yet to colonize, we clearly need another one.
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Do you not realize how expensive it is to bring freedom and democracy to oppressed peoples!? We gave them free elections free markets and a whole lot of freedom. Honestly, if we wanted to be fair we would of taken a lot more territory!
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Originally it seemed like the Vrul were fanatics. They really didn’t have much interest in exploration or colonization. All they really did was antagonize the first alien race they came across. (Us!) At the time we assumed they had a lot more real estate to the north and could possibly become a threat. (I’m not gonna deny that Marc metagames when he “learned” that their planet was dying an we could wait them out. Given all available information at the time, it’s highly unlikely a government wouldn’t take a belligerent threat on it’s border seriously.)
After the disaster, 80% of their race was killed. They were lucky that they had one adjacent habitable world because they didn’t seem to be in any hurry to explore as far as Weji. Frankly, if it wasn’t for the intervention of the AC, they might have gone extinct.
I don’t know what happened on Torix after we granted them independence. Marc tends to not pay attention and it is a huge game to manage, but for whatever reason Vrul seemed to be heading towards failure again and a xenophobic political movement rose up. (Were the Vrul just not building farms?) Apparently the purge was purely an expell and not a genocide, but it didn’t seem like things were going well. Reintegrating Vrul with the AC seemed like a necessary move, as now the Vrul citizens will have access to Weji and other AC colonies. If they chose to relocate which they seem reluctant to do.
Also raises the question, we have Vrul with full AC citizenship, how do they feel about their cousins slipping back into a xenophobic state with limited resources and poor management? There might be some interesting arguments amongst the Vrul themselves.
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Weji it turns out was home to an older civilization that was destroyed by rage virus, and the virus was still there. Probably why the Vrul didn't take it, lore wise.
We reintegrated the Vrul last stream. A xenophobic government took over and started deporting humans, while Vrul pirates (terrorists?) started operating on the border. I think the whole "responded to their requests for independence by stealing the majority of their territory and making them a vassal" thing might not have been the best idea if we didn't want them to hate us.
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I wonder if the Vrul actually originated on Weji?
Maybe the hate plague is something in their dna.
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Yeah let's avoid war now seriously. Like make allies to fight the Beldross and then ignore the others. Kinda mean protrayal of the Vrul but it's a point. We really should push back against this blatant disfigurement of our ideals.
I'm not opposed to more wars, but maybe we can do some liberating without turning the people we're "freeing" into a vassal and stealing all their land?
It's mean to the Vrul to depict them like this, but Antares treated them like they're too stupid to be in charge of their affairs so I'm gonna call that satire.
Yeah. But seriously we have to push back against the warmongering. Marc clearly wants vassals and we have to push against his desires with that. We have to form a united front against the Beldross and we have to assume he is going to make anyone we conquer our vassals, so we should only target the most blatant offenders.
Full sovereignty for the Vrul is a good first step. They're in our federation, they're a democracy, we don't need them to be vassals for Antares' security or for them to be free. Even if we don't give their land back, we can at least let them be free in what they have left.
Yeah we should do that but ofc I'm sure Marc is gonna try to find something to go crazy on about that.
Are they a vassal, though? I thought the Vrul were made independent, despite the potential catastrophe that could also bring.
We voted to make them independent and Marc made them a vassal.
I forgot though, I think the Beldros are our link the galactic market. And who is involved with the galactic senate? Maybe we picked a fight with the wrong side.