Call it by its name.
Posted Dec 18, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC
545113
WG has borked their own economy with too many boosters (flags, special flags, camo’s) that are cumulative. We’re now “reaping” the consequences of their ineptitude, just like freeXP-ships that cost 2.000.000. See my signature.
139
How long until we got ultra rare super duper signals with bonuses in the thousands
64
Narrator:
u/LibRight69 would later go on to regret his comment for he sparked an idea in the Wargaming World of Warships department.
85
Calling it now, in 2021 we'll get gold ammo
/s
20
That would make me quit right away. It's the reason I never installed WoT.
22
same
1
It’s called HE
5
Ahhh... HE isn't THAT strong, not universally, and especially on certain ships after IFHE nerf.
If you're spammed to death consistently, learn to position better.
Only exception to this might be Smolly, which has smoke, BS range and flat arcs.
2
How long until we got ultra rare super duper signals with bonuses in the thousands
Answer: Mid/late 2021
4
So World of Warships is like some banana republic that issues 1 million dollar bills due to hyper-inflation? That would make the devs the delusional tin-pot dictator of said failed nation state.
Yep, the analogy holds up.
37
It's a pretty common issue in MMOs. In WOWS it's not as much of a problem for the players, because the normal issue is that player to player trades get really wonky due to the near worthlessness of the currency. For WG, however, it's a huge problem, because any content that they release in an attempt to indirectly encourage pay-to-skip is reduced in value because a huge chunk of players simply have the ability to buy the thing for free.
Two common ways of countering this problem are introducing new currencies with more restrictive earning requirements, and developing resource sinks to try to deflate the primary currency.
WG has done both. Coal and Steel are theoretically independent currencies from credits (you can't buy coal for credits) and the amount of each you can get is heavily limited. If you play 100+ games a day you can pull down 10s of millions of credits, but you're capped at around 5k coal per day from crates and weekly missions (ignoring super containers). Steel is the same way. You can also get both of these from event rewards, which has started to lead to coal inflation issues, part of the reason new coal ships keep getting more expensive.
For resource sinks, the research bureau is the textbook example. Dump piles of credits, FXP and time that literally ground entire new tech trees of ships to get an individual ship or module. Talk about a disproportionately small reward for the investment.
Other minor sinks include the increased prices of FXP ships (Alaska cost full 30% more than Musashi, and TX FXP ships cost twice what Alaska does). Special upgrades and containers help reduce the amount of coal people have on hand, and buying signals helps drain credits.
While these have worked to some degree, there are still players running around with piles of FXP, credits, and coal, and it's had the deleterious effect of gating new content off behind grinds that are downright impossible for casual or new players. I bought a coal ship right before Thunderer came out, and I probably won't have the coal to get her before she's pulled from sale. I've been playing for years on and off, and only just researched my 3rd T10 ship. I'm still 2 lines from unlocking the RB, and one more from actually having the RP to buy anything.
Hyperinflation is a problem every MMO runs into eventually, and while WOWS hasn't coped the worst (some games literally collapsed with their currencies) it's certainly not the best either.
86
That is the best and most concise description I have seen here, bucket of upvotes, please.
I am a sociology major with an economics degree on the side. This whole universe inside WoWS fascinates me endlessly.
For starters, this entire game resembles a psychology experiment. Everything is geared towards you and me as players doing something that we initially did not plan to do (play all day, every day; spend irrational amounts of money). That requires a lot of fine tuning, and insight into human psyche is kind of the main ingredient of this brew.
On top of that there's the economy with all the issues you've touched upon. I guess there's room for quite some hires from social sciences, including economics, and psychologists, all of them coming from disciplines who would consider working for WG as being lured by the dark side. Deeply, deeply fascinating.
24
Excellent post
5
Very well put. This should be a pinned post in the sub.
2
WG create the high price for stuff, sell way for ppl to accumulate currency faster, and then saying "ppl have too much currency" to judge increasing the price. Ez money, and ppl are still spending, laughing "lol its my money" while wg fuck them in the ass.
3
Plus the missions/events can be like Earn 100k Free Exp in a week making those grinds another whale pit
1
There are negatives about the rework, but it is by definition not a scam.
34
A scam implies they're taking money from your wallet, ergo the rework is not a scam
32
They’re changing the monetary values of the captain rework. That’s why he is calling it a scam. Making it where you spend more on doubloons instead of anything else
18
If you're spending doubloons that's your choice. You also have the option of grinding the hard way like the rest of us peasants
19
Oh trust me, I know! I’m a f2p and I’ve grinned for all my T9-T10. The retraining that bugs me is they’re taking away the half speed retrain, that you spend credits for. So now with the rework it’s either free (full retrain) or doubloons (immediate retrain)
5
Didn't they also change that if you are under training none of the skills works, while previous some skills had half effect during retraining?
7
They removed the option to 50% retrain with credits, but they also reduced retraining costs by 50%. So now it's half as much work, and you don't have to spend any credits on it at all.
3
they're taking away half speed retrain but making retraining twice as fast by defaut, so really you're not really losing anything
2
So now with the rework it’s either free (full retrain) or doubloons (immediate retrain)
No, they took away this current systems free version (full retrain) and the current 50% off version is now the standard and its free.
So all that's changed there is you automatically get the 50% version without spending credits.
2
The retraining that bugs me is they’re taking away the half speed retrain, that you spend credits for. So now with the rework it’s either free (full retrain) or doubloons (immediate retrain)
How convenient, you're only stating what's useful for proving your point.
I'm sure you are absolutely aware that they've cut the XP needed for retraining in half, so you no longer need to spend 200k, but you've deliberately chosen not to mention this.
1
[deleted]
3†
They're increasing the grind because each captain can now crew an additional 3 ships.
Also I just had an epiphany, the rework will also help to accommodate subs so they just have their own tab instead of taking slots away from the current system
-1
That’s not a scam. That’s just increasing the cost for a service
1
Wouldn't saying the rework was to make things better for the game while it in fact being done to rake in more money for WG count as scamming?
1
700k-750k would have been fair. 1.2M is a rip off. WG has the nasty habit of always surprising you with a next level of greed, that you don’t expect, even though you have seen it before. Because normal people just do not think in their ways.
17
I understand they want to add more grind which is fine, I just wish they added more skills to the current system along with increasing the max captain rank. The new system is so convoluted, and seems to be a nerf for most things besides CVs.
6
Aren't they changing up the trees next month?
1
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5
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0
A meme to start a discusion. I call the rework bullshit, dont see the need, unless you are wargaming and need to earn more money.
So it is time to call it what it is: The captains rework is a scam and it is even obvious.
Here ... there were not as many effective ways to distribute skills as we wanted. These change will help players not only to allocate skills to match their playstyle, but also to try new tactics.
This is bullshit! The definition of the playstyle is defined by the ships abilities. As one example battleships: If you get 6 guns and a lifted citadel, you are not a brawler. No matter what you specc, it will always be not effective. If you get 9 guns and a lowered citadel you are one on the other hand. Wargaming is even actively selling ships because of their respective abilities. So depending on your ships abilities, you have to pick the skills that help you the most, you dont diverse from this. You dont turn a sniper into a brawler, nor a brawler into a sniper. Fact.
Now how does the new skills will turn out, are we gone see so many new playstyles or are we just gone lose a lot? In short, we lose diversity. The 3 biggest problems:
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Secondary BBs will get directly nerfed the 2nd time this year. While the opposite, the snipers get a buff.
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Heavy cruisers and stationary cruisers lose surviveabilty. They all become the same cruiser gameplay now. Island, agility and smoke is left. So by losing strenghts, you lose diversity
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Light cruisers, losing range. Flint, Atlanta, Colbert & Smolensk will be less often seen. As reference: HIV and YY disappeared the moment they got nerfed, so much about diversity.
In short we got buffs for existing gameplays which wont change diversity and nerfs that will delete existing ones. Why should we "fix" a not existing problem at all? Everyone is complaining about the matchmaker, blowouts, ship interactions, dont forget the monetization of selling tierX and the Makarovgate. Why are we doing this? Because...
here It will require 1,200,000 XP. Yes, it is a new stage of growth for commanders in our game: they get more simultaneous active skills, but it requires effort to unlock them all. This is the basis of our game - progression.
For everyone that doesnt know what 1.2M XP means, let me show you 4 good matches, with premium, and a few flags. 1, 2, 3 & 4 an avg of like 10.5k captains xp. Or 120 good matches, on premium, with flags for every techtree ship you play(!) in brawls, ranked and randoms. Tier 8,9,X is like 80 at least for me. Also premiums do need different captains. I can use the same captain for Alabama, Massa and Georgia, but i would prefer to have own special ones. Guess what will happen with the diversity when a fucking huge grind wall is in front of it?
We got players that play less than 1k matches, without prem a year and this will make existing problems even worse. The gap between long time players and new players will increase even further, unless someone spents money...
The captains rework is just an increased grind, a sinkhole for existing captains xp they struggled to monaterize. It is a just another scam.
3†
All the English majors in here are riding you cos of the word "scam". Anyone with half a brain knows what you mean.
"...but also to try new tactics"
If this was a problem, they would make re-speccing 100% free so everyone could actually try new tactics.
So a word you are looking for (many could fit) is "disingenuous".
2
It´s a money grab (in your oppinion which i don´t share), not a scam though. At least use the propper deffinition and not hyperbole BS.
1†
[deleted]
-9
Können wir gerne in deutsch machen. Habe ich keine Probleme mit.
Der rework ist jedoch kein Betrug (denn das ist scam). Sie sagen klar was ihre Intentionen mit dem rework sind, was sie sich davon erhoffen und was die Kosten für die Spieler sind.
Ja man kann das ganze mit Geld beschleuningen aber man muss es nicht tun. Ein Betrug wäre etwas wo vorne gesagt wird, es wäre alles gratis aber hintenrum muss man dann doch Geld bezahlen um etwas zu kriegen, was hier definitiev nicht der Fall ist.
Du kannst ohne weiteres deine Skipper vollkommen gratis auf 21 aufwerten. Wird zwar etwas länger dauern aber ist vollkommen ohne Geldeinsatz möglich.
Und ja die Formulierung ist mir wichtig, egal ob im englischen oder deutschen, da man nur mit einer klaren und richtigen Wortwahl zum korrekt zum Ausdruck bringt was man sagen will.
Um vom rework selbst zu reden, die Probleme die du damit hast sehe ich einfach nicht. Ein 19 Punkte Skipper bringt all die Gefechtsleistung die nötig ist, vorausgesetzt man wählt seine Talente richtig, schließlich verändert sich von 1 bis 19 nichts an den XP Kosten.
Die letzen zwei extra Punkte die dazu kommen sind für extras "obendrauf" und nur sehr selten gefechtsentscheident.
Wenn du spielen kannst wirst du mit einem 19er Kapitän keine Probleme haben, einen 21er zu versenken.
Wenn wir allerdings über die einzelnen Klassen reden dann ist dort eine die in zwei ihrer Untergruppen geschwächt wird, und das sind die Kreuzer, gibts garnichts drüber zu diskutieren, sehe ich genau so.
2
Flint, Atlanta, Colbert & Smolensk will be less often seen
I don't see a problem with that, I don't think there is a single class that enjoys the existence of high fire rate HE spammers, except CVs, maybe
1
If you get 9 guns and a lowered citadel you are one on the other hand
You could be a lot of different things....
You dont turn a sniper into a brawler, nor a brawler into a sniper. Fact.
Ohio? Georgia? Ark? All 3 with fantastic dispersion compared to their peers, but each with abilities that could suit cqb.
Heavy cruisers and stationary cruisers lose surviveabilty. They all become the same cruiser gameplay now. Island, agility and smoke is left. So by losing strenghts, you lose diversity
If you're playing a CA next to an island, you're playing a different game, because manfred exists.
As reference: HIV and YY disappeared the moment they got nerfed, so much about diversity.
HIV needed a nerf, and a big one at that. YY needed a tap as well. Anyone who played those in competitive play will tell you they were oppressive. Hell henri ran the show for 3 seasons. Venezia would have replaced it anyway.
Secondary BBs will get directly nerfed the 2nd time this year. While the opposite, the snipers get a buff.
Increasing base secondary ranges seems like a pretty good buff, as is the much requested ability to fire on both sides with man sec.
The captains rework is just an increased grind,
Assuming people are starting at 19 points... Most people aren't going to have a 19 pointer.
The definition of the playstyle is defined by the ships abilities. As one example battleships: If you get 6 guns and a lifted citadel, you are not a brawler. No matter what you specc, it will always be not effective. If you get 9 guns and a lowered citadel you are one on the other hand. Wargaming is even actively selling ships because of their respective abilities. So depending on your ships abilities, you have to pick the skills that help you the most, you dont diverse from this.
No it isn't. Almost every CA, CL, BB, and CV can use the same builds. I can give you a skill load out for any one of these classes, and youd be fine putting it on any ship in the class. Every single class has a cookie cutter build. And if you are playing outside that mold, then chances are you're playing the ship sub optimally.
0†
Increasing base secondary ranges seems like a pretty good buff, as is the much requested ability to fire on both sides with man sec.
Increased range means nothing if the guns won't hit anything. And even at the moment with mansec the 2ndarys won't really hit anything nearing max range.
With the new man sec accuracy will be nerfed even further.
Firing in both direction is fine, but not really valuable. If you have targets on both, you are inside a crossfire. For max effect you want to brawl 1vs1.
3
Yeah but WG nerfs to non-Russian ships mean they are killed off completely. I just finished Henri UU grind, boy what a drag. Port queen from now on.
1
So yet another RuSsIaN bIaS adept, fascinating
0
What explains the nerfs to Kremlin's AA mount health nerfs while not touching the rest of the ship at all, other than a minor sigma decrease? Not Russian bias I'm sure.
-1
Less of a scam and more just really, really stupid - they are throwing away years of effort and satisfaction earned. Whenever something is good, they fuck with it. In a game where 'good' things become popular, they then stamp out those popular things for 'balance'. Ergo, all the good stuff is eventually removed leaving you with a joyless grey paste. Not to mention the new skills are retarded. Proximity based activation? full ON/OFF as opposed to 2% per ship etc.? What retards come up with this shit? Is the CEO's challenged son been spooned into the board meetings? PS LOL what is this bull shit you can only post every 30 minutes?? HAHAHA lame
2†
Always has been bang
2
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1
But there reasons for changing it are 100% true. The biggest reason being that there is basically a few builds everyone uses.
It's not a scam. Most of the playerbase doesn't even have a 19 point captain.
1†
I've got 8-19 pts with 12 Tier X ships, 3 15 pts and two 18 pts. Guess it's gonna be a loooooong grind 🤷♂️😂
0
I'm sitting around the same, but you can't begin to approach the idea that it's a common thing.
5
i mean with 12 TXs and 8 max captains i think you;ve already grinded the game out
1
Erm no.
33 T10s and 30 19pt captains and I ain't ground it out yet.
1
The captains rework makes submarine skills easyer to integrate, thats all.
1†
When is this launching though?
1
You can't get scammed if you know what's up in the first place. You don't understand what the word means, so it's really hard to care if you change your mind or not.
It may be a mistake, a move to make extra money, etc, but it's not a scam. Not even close!
0†
It's no scam. Raising the level is pretty common in MMOs, and increasing the level to 21 is no different than raising it to 19 a few years ago. In order to keep people busy the next few levels (of course) are going to take a while to acquire.
You're just pissed that your 19 point captain all of a sudden isn't the highest level anymore. You forget that other changes in the same system also mean you basically get three 19 point captains free for the same change to use on any of the other 3 three ship types.
It's 1.5M CaptainXP to max them out again. With normal play and a bunch of flags, that's not exactly hard to do. As for people paying to increase the speed at with which they get that 1.5M -- who cares, they're the ones paying for the game. It hardly matters. Captains are a luxury. For the hell of it, take a ship out with a 0 point captain and just play. It won't make that much difference in the average random match.
-2
You forget that other changes in the same system also mean you basically get three 19 point captains free for the same change to use on any of the other 3 three ship types.
Only on premium ships. Had WG allowed the captains to have 4 different specializations so you could switch the commander on 4 different *tech tree* ships, I'm sure the rework would be taken much better, had it been this way.
4
That's true, but also highly unlikely. If you can move your captains for free between silver line ships, you eventually kill the game. Someone has to pay to keep the servers on. The fact that they also made actually moving captains between silver ships less punishing by reducing the amount of xp needed is another bonus, though.
I'll take the four specializations per captain for any premium of the same nation as a massive bonus, though. :)
1
Yeah, I'm aware of what being able to have 1 captain for all ships in the line would do to the game. It's not like I'm complaining, I can now spec Isoroku for tachibana, mutsu, yoshino and kaga all while being able to use it on Yamato. And same with halsey, imagine an Arkansas Beta with a 19 point BB secondary specced halsey, man the thing is gonna be broken, especially with Hosho getting nerfed in 0.9.12
UPD: as an afterthought, moving captains isn't really much less punishing, I mean, 200k is one good t6 premium game even without premium account
1
In case you did not notice but in the future many favorite Captain builts will require 21 to basically achieve the same with 19. Because some important skills suddenly require a point more. So no this is not comparable to other MMOs ... Also this is not a RPG so increasing the skill point ceiling will make this game even worse for new players and only favor seal clubbers even more. No I very much disagree. Despite being able to skill a Captain for different ship types at the same time, the majority of the changes are unhealthy for the game or destroy at least several fun builts for many . Furthermore it will require AGAIN rebalancing of many premiums and techtree ships, which will take a lot of time, if ever. High risk for a kill patch after the still disastrous unresolved CV patch ...
2
thats like, just your opinions man.
Seriously thou, this is a welcome change.
Current system is busted.
You got the meta build and the off beat fun builds, but almost everyone's builds are identical.
Not to mention the AFT and BFT's existence makes Smolensk the cancer that it is.
With the changes, builds will become more diverse. which is positive.
Sure, we lose out on elite exp, but do you really think a commander has to be max level to be effective?
-5†
If it's busted they should have added more skills to what is there now. If there were say 50% more worthwhile skills to choose from then there'd be more variety. Even just making the AA skills useful would increase variety.
For example, if everyone takes CE, then they should have added something of equal or better value so it would actually be a hard choice which one to get.
Instead, it's this convoluted system with class specific builds and a nice extra grind to boot.
10
There's also the point that literally every single online game ever, and probably a lot of strictly singleplayer games too, will develop metas.
Metas will always be a thing. There is absolutely nothing a game designer can do about it. Ask the World of Warcraft community about the times when Blizzard tried (most recently, and egregiously, in this very brand-new expansion's beta phase).
What a competent game designer has to do is
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Understand why $CurrentMeta is the preferred way of playing the game, i.e. what makes it so effective.
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Evaluate whether any current meta is gamebreaking, i.e. so powerful that it chokes out anything else into complete nonviability.
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Balance and re-balance things consistently to both address (2) and keep variety alive.
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Try to figure out (and boy is this a task) what the majority of the community considers to be fun and engaging gameplay. It should have highs, it should have lows, it should feel fair, it should have some RNG to spice it up; the exact proportions differ game-by-game and person-to-person and are never quite empirical.
But a great game designer can suss that out and prod the game towards that direction, not away from it.
A few other observations and advice provided free of charge by somebody who's been theorycrafting video games literally since middle school:
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A game can be badly balanced, even hilariously so, as long as it is frequently balanced. Stale but relatively fair metas are, on average, far more damaging to a game than broken but short metas.
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Perfect balance is unachievable. If you aim for it, your career will be a stressful failure.
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Unless your absolute focus is the competitive scene and you're willing to push that angle to the detriment of everything else, the gameplay needs to be fun first, and balanced second. Even if your game is laser-focused on the competitive scene, it still needs to be fun.
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The game needs to teach players how to play, or at least give them clear feedback on good or bad decisions they made. Great game designers can work this naturally into the flow of the gameplay so that the players barely even notice, but if you can't do that, then use a wooden mallet or something. In particular, a player needs to know whether he just failed because he rolled a natural 0 or because he made an absolutely garbage play.
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You may have created this game, but that does not mean you know best. In some cases, yes, you will know better than your community. But if your community perceives a problem with the game, then listen to them. These are hundreds, thousands, or even more players who have made it their weekly task to figure out what you built; you cannot compete against that level of swarm intelligence.
However, if your community offers a solution to the problem, be very, very skeptical. But don't outright discard it, either.
And most importantly of all:
- The part of your community that you should care about is invariably comprised of intelligent, thoughtful people. They will not appreciate being misled or bullshitted, and when they smell foul play, your game will start dying. These exact players are the pulling factor that either brings new and/or less vocal people into your game, and when they quit, their silent compatriots will, too.
10
For example, if everyone takes CE, then they should have added something of equal or better value so it would actually be a hard choice which one to get.
Can't tell if serious or trolling. Did you actually look at the new skills. Did you see all those new interesting 4pt skills. What do you think their purpose is, what do you think they're going to do to the meta.
1
So why add all this other class rubbish? Just add new skills. New skills adds variety in builds. 100% free re-speccing adds variety. Class specific skills does not.
1
more than a scam they're actively poisoning the well to chase out oldtimers who bought or acquired almost everything so far rip lutgens, rip pom rip ga rip Puerto rico so forth so on
-6
The christmas crates were a scam.
The commander rework is whatever bad you like to call it, that is your opinion. By calling it a scam you undermine any discussion from the start since you are using hyperbole and by making this claim you make any balanced argument indefensible ( because anything arguing FOR the commander rework is 'defending a scam' ). It's bad form. This is just as bad a comparison as calling everything bad "basically like hitler" or calling anything that uses clicheès racism. It kills discussion and/or devalues the meaning of "racism" "scam" etc.
I am sure you can criticize the change without this.
I know I am just another person on the internet, my respect for you is as great as it can be for a fellow person on the internet thank you for your input.
Truth is best served hard and cold.
I agree. Its not a scam though if you are going by the definition of scam.
Just serve the truth cold and hard. Point out all the things that are factually ( or by opinion ) bad about it and why. It increases grind, the skill changes don't foster diversity but eliminate/nerf specialized specs like low caliber cruisers, super cruisers, secondary bbs etc.
I wanted to say the same, but I think I get his point.
If you define a scam as a scummy decision made in order to milk to playerbase for a quick buck, the captain rework fits that bill.
With the whole "raising captain points to 21 and not updating existing captains", are you doubting that WG will make an absolute fortune from whales buying gold to train up their (probably hundreds of)captains?
The fact that you can't retrain your captain with credits anymore, that you HAVE to use gold (with WG responding "yes, but the amount was halved", as if that matters at all).
Hey.
Can you explain this to me? Today you can spend 200k credits to train half the wxp needed.
If they instead remove half the xp you need to retrain, why is that a bad thing?
They halved the gold amount to retrain.
Did they also half the amount of XP needed to retrain the captain in general?
If so, I take back the second point, though the first (and main) one still stands strong and it still makes sense to call this a scam, imo.
Ok, I don't know about point 2 either.
As for the second point, wouldn't you say its the same as when world of war craft releases a new expansion and increases the level cap?
I think wg has many scummy business practices (pay 2 win premium ships being one of the bog ones), but not increasing 19 captains to lvl 21 automatically is OK imho. At least not the worst thing they've done.
Going from the description captain skills don't work at all while retraining. Atm at least most of them work with half their max effect.
Well-put. The Captain rework is a lot of shit things, but 'scam' doesn't really fit the description.
The captain rework is a scam....because.... it’s encouraging people to dismiss high point commanders to get 21 point commanders and encourage a massive grind. The scam is that it his will not “fix” anything that the players thought was “broken” while creating a massive grind that will encourage players to throw more money at the game.
It may be bad form but he’s not wrong. You didn’t even attempt a legitimate counter. Are you a straw man?
Why would you dismiss 21 point commanders? You can retrain them for free... I don't get your point.
With the rework you’ll be able to dismiss captains for elite captain xp. So it’s encouraging people to dismiss other captains for elite exp to get a 21 point captain.
The whole thing is creating another artificial barrier to encourage players to throw money at the game or else spend and insane amount of time playing.
This rework isn’t about improving the game. I’ve never seen a post on here requesting a rework of the captain skills.
This will be a new money maker and a distraction from CVs
bla bla bla on a FREE GAME. If you don't like it, go play another FREE GAME or pay up. It's just that simple.
If you're not paying, the devs don't care if you leave. If you're whining I do not care if you continue to play or not. It's quite evident there's a solution that makes everyone happy here, and it's your to make.
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