Source
r/ffxivhomeandgarden•
FFSnipe

Controversial discussion: should players be required to state if they used a 3rd party tool to place furnishings?

Discussion

#I want to preface this with the following:

I have no problem with people using 3rd party tools to make their lives easier. If something can be floated to a certain spot, then by all means use the tool to cut down the time drastically. I actually encourage that. I cannot imagine the time it would take to do some of the houses on here. If something can be placed in a certain spot but it's a huge pain in the ass to get it perfect (say under the stairs where the camera angle is a pain in the ass to get right) then again, by all means use the tool.

What I am talking about is the placement of furnishings that is just impossible without the tool. Non-tabletop/wall items sunken below the basement. Things pushed out past a wall. Objects floated that cannot be floated (those slanted skylights and partitions). If these things exist in a design, should the designer be obligated to tell people about it?

Too many times have I seen newer users asking how to do this or that only to be lied to or the unfamiliar people will answer saying that it is possible when it is 100% not. Too many times have I see designs on here where it isn't blatantly obvious because the tooled in furnishings are hidden very well and only a keen eye can see them.

I really feel as though it deceives people. Makes them think some things are possible when they aren't. That can really cause someone getting into the housing scene to feel defeated and not good enough. Which is the exact opposite of what I think this sub is about. This sub is about encouraging people to hone their skills. Making their houses look a little better, and a little better the next time, again ang again. I have known a few people to see posts on this sub and say "I wanna do that" only to just say "fuck it" when someone tells them it isn't possible without a tool that allows them to do things they aren't supposed to do.

So, my question again: Should players who post their designs here be required to inform everyone if they used a 3rd party tool to place items that cannot be placed by normal glitching methods?

And as a side question: If another person here sees something in a design that is tooled into place, should they call them out on it?

Again, I just want to reiterate. I do not care about designers making things easier on themselves. If you have to float 30 Flooring Mats to the same height for what you are designing, holy shit do it. I 100% understand the monotony and agony that would come with doing that manually. Trust me, I know how much of a pain in the ass it is.

I anticipate that this post will be downvoted and to be honest, I understand completely. This is a very touchy subject and I accept the fact that it might upset a lot of people. I just hope everyone understands where I am coming from with the point I made at the start.

EDIT:

#I will not, under any circumstance, give information about said tools. This is not a post for people to pass around things that break the tos. This is a post asking if other posts should be marked for usage of those tools.

Posted Jan 18, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC · edited

6649
SwampUnicorn•

For anyone familiar with housing and its limitations, it is glaringly obvious when someone has used third party tools to gain a certain look.

For newer people a little more transparency would absolutely help for them to understand that some of the builds they see are impossible to achieve on their own.

40
Key_Chain•

Wait there’s tools to help you float? Fucking excuse me I’ve been floating things the manual and hard way this entire time?????

I felt this way too when I found blokes were just uploading a midi to a 3rd party program to play Bard music, making them look talented and upping their internet clout. Betrayed.

37
shaijis•

SAME!!

Fuck TOS, I'm already parsing and using Gshade. Gimme!

10
thevampirelematt•

Yeah really, for them to go after furniture placement tools and let parsing slide would be massively stupid and a waste of resources

6
Tessleonhart•

I vote for people being up front about using a 3rd party tool. I also don’t care if they do but yeah, it’s helpful for other players who are driving themselves crazy trying to figure out how to achieve the same look.

22
Clarice01•

Seems like the real answer would be for SqEx to just replicate the functionality of third-party tools in game. Clearly if a tool is able to edit the game in order to allow putting an object somewhere, and the game allows it to remain there, the game functionally supports it.

I don't really see the difference between using a third-party tool and abusing the game's code to manipulate various glitches without a tool. Both are basically taking advantage of something to achieve something you're not supposed to.

If the game properly supported what is achievable through tools/glitches, the playerbase would benefit the most. Housing design completely "by the book" leads to nothing but uninteresting houses.

18
BlueCockatoo•

This! As a PS4 user, I envy people who can use tools to make creativity in housing easier. I can do all the glitches but it is extremely tedious and time consuming and it is just ridiculous that we have to go to those lengths at all to do what we want when the game does support placement that way or no glitches would work. Just give us the ability to switch on “advanced” mode and be able to specify XYZ coordinates already, SE. why does it have to feel like clearing an EX when you just get a partition to float through a stair rail? Think of the amount of creativity people could do with furnishing combos if they could be precisely placed without weird constraints.

11
Py687•

Seems like the real answer would be for SqEx to just replicate the functionality of third-party tools in game.

Absolutely agree.

I don't really see the difference between using a third-party tool and abusing the game's code to manipulate various glitches without a tool.

Except there are tools that let you do the impossible, even when attempted with glitches.

1
SinthrisaDAether - Midgardsormr•

Unpopular opinion, Designers have no business using third-party assisting tools to work on someone else's house. It isn't them that will get into trouble for tooling items into place. It is the home owner.

Anyway, I think transparency is a good thing. But in all honesty, do you REALLY think anyone is going to say they use a tool for housing? No. People won't admit to that, it will make them look lesser than everyone sees them at currently.

11
CandyGhouls•

I personally don't think it should be required for someone to be upfront without prompt about using the tool in discussion. HOWEVER I do think there should be self laid rules to that.

  1. Don't lie that you did this 'the hard way' or something. Deception is never cool. If someone asks if you used the tool, be honest.
  2. Use it only for personal builds where you alone are the person at risk, not commissions that could get the innocent party banned.
  3. If someone directly asks how you did something in your build, then of course admit to a third party client if said feature is unobtainable through normal means.

But I do not think someone needs to be blaring loudly they used a 3rd party client when they post their designs, that is just asking to have them targeted unfairly or putting a scarlet letter on their chest. Just be honest when someone asks, don't be a jerk and lie.

---

Also for the record you CAN use the nald piece on a door and partitions for the frame without using a third party client, I did it in a personal build some months ago. You just have to use the storeroom placement cheat and have a looot of patience to find how deep you can sink them into the wall.

8
FFSnipeOP•

Also for the record you CAN use the nald piece on a door and partitions for the frame without using a third party client, I did it in a personal build some months ago. You just have to use the storeroom placement cheat and have a looot of patience to find how deep you can sink them into the wall.

oh i know you can. but it only sinks back so far. everything has a limit on how far into a wall it will go.

2
CandyGhouls•

Of course, that is a given. I just wanted to clarify it is possible to sink it in pretty tightly without a program so people do not think using a nald for your front door = obviously used a program.

1
FFSnipeOP•

Use it only for personal builds where you alone are the person at risk, not commissions that could get the innocent party banned.

the hypocrisy in your comment is unreal right now after the drama yall were going through in that other post.

1
CandyGhouls•

That was a personal build so...? Not really sure... where this rule applies? I own that medium I built the lounge in. I own every house I build in, I don't do commissions period and have never said I do. AND I stated this very rule to you in my explanations on the other thread.

1
FFSnipeOP•

that other thread is a fucking blur, not gonna lie. all i did was ask a question and it devolved into whatever the hell that was. i noped right the hell outta there.

if you did say it was a personal, then thats my bad for skipping over it. i did a lot of skipping over in those comments.

shoulda never asked and just kept my mouth shut.

1
CandyGhouls•

I didn't mind helping you. I'm sorry if my wording was confusing. I was trying my best to be forthcoming. I did admit at the top of my post to having used both methods that I proceeded to explain to you.

The person attacking me merely assumed my build was not personal and that I do commissions. I have stated absolutely nowhere that I take commissions and when I am messaged with requests I politely decline. And all my builds are personal builds. I own three mansions and three mediums as well as an array of apartments all on Malboro that I use as my designing spaces. I strictly follow the rules that I posted up above. And when asked directly if I used a program, I was forthcoming with my answer.

But to help with your question if you are wanting to do the nald with just housing glitches, then follow my directions in the first method paragraph I posted and use the two reference photos I posted in response to that person to see what I mean by bringing your partitions forward to meet the nald. It makes a wonderful little entry way, no programs required. If you need further details on how to achieve this or questions about the items I used or how I used them (in the second set of pictures) just shoot me a message!

2
pastelmorning•

while i do think that questions should be answered transparently as to not mislead people, marking posts that use third-party tools puts the account holder at risk for in-game banning. although SE doesn't use evidence outside of the game to ban users on a regular basis, they have been known to do so; it's not out of the realm of possibility, you know. openly admitting to using a third party tool to decorate a house might not seem like a big deal, it's still against ToS regardless if it's just to float a couch.

finding house owners in this sub is tedious at best but not impossible and i'd hate to put someone's account at risk because they wanted a faster/easier way to float a fireplace.

7
FFSnipeOP•

As I stated in my post text, I dont care if its using the tool to achieve something that can be normally achieved without it.

Floating a fireplace with a tool to make it faster isnt what im talking about.

Its the furnishings that are impossible to place without the tool is what i am meaning.

like when you see a partition out of bounds with only a little bit poking in the house. or when you have 3 white screens framing a door way when they are over half-way out past the wall. or a Nald-thal whatever lecturn that is so far into the front door of a house which is impossible to do without the tool.

with regular floating and glitching, you cannot tell at all if a tool has been used. and i am not talking about that kind of stuff. i am meaning the impossible furnishing placements.

everyone seems to be missing that point.

2
pastelmorning•

i don't believe i missed your point. the examples i used were completely arbitrary and not a reflection of what the software might be used for. i know you want more transparency from the community; my point was that that transparency could make the poster a possible target for in-game punishment.

8
FFSnipeOP•

I see now what you are saying. I kinda got stuck on that one thing and thought that was the point you were making.

that transparency could make the poster a possible target for in-game punishment

And i do understand that completely. however, i do think that if a person is willing to use a 3rd party tool to place items in impossible places, my honest opinion is that they shouldnt be showing it off no matter how nice it is. there are people that can tell, regardless of if they say it or not.

2†
koifishkomeiji•

I think it should be disclosed if people ask how they did something in particular and they only achieved it by using the tool, otherwise, it doesn't really matter imo. People who have been doing housing for a while can tell when tools have been used and in my experience, folks in this sub are pretty good at pointing out when tools were used if people ask how they did X or Y. The only time I think it HAS to be disclosed is if they're working on someone else's house, because as has been stated by others, that could get the home owner in trouble if reported.

6
Glenduil•

Reported how? I still have not heard of a single placement that cannot be done without a third party tool.

2
koifishkomeiji•

The new Slanted walls can't be floated or placed in certain places without a third party tool, if someone spotted those floated or in weird spots it would be a dead giveaway. It's all hypothetical though, I haven't seen anyone get banned over this either but it's one of those things where it's better to CYB just in case.

1
ZeroT3K•

What 3rd party tools are you speaking of? All I’ve ever seen are tutorials involving stage panels, riviera shelves, and lofts. If there’s an easier way to do it, I’m adopting it. TOS be damned.

5
interstellaur•

so if i understand correctly, you're proposing that people state they're using third party tools only if they're using them to do something that would be otherwise impossible in game. but otherwise, you don't care if people are using them for the sake of making things faster. i guess i feel a bit conflicted for several reasons: 1. where the line gets drawn for deception (cause to me, using third party housing tools is using third party housing tools whether it's to do something possible/impossible in game). 2. whether people guilty of this would even be willing to admit it in the first place. 3. the possibility of people getting wrongly called out for using third party tools.

sure, i would like to know when they are used because i probably don't even notice when they are. that said, i highly doubt people would comply. maybe people can choose to specify in future posts that third party tools were not used if they feel strongly in advocating such. idk. i think it's important to be aware that these tools exist. if a designer cannot answer your question in how something in their build was achieved, then there's likely a reason for it.

edit- spelling

5
FFSnipeOP•

(cause to me, using third party housing tools is using third party housing tools whether it's to do something possible/impossible in game)

i get that completely. i refuse to use it for anything other than checking floating height requirements for others or to try and recreate something that looks to be tooled. as far as designing goes, i refuse to use it at all. and even with those 2 tiny things, I am still using it and it is against the tos. i get where you are coming from.

if a designer cannot answer your question in how something in their build was achieved, then there's likely a reason for it.

very true. sadly though, there are times when a designer lies about it. lord knows ive seen that on multiple discord communities.

4
interstellaur•

yeah i suppose that makes it tricky. well it was definitely worth starting a conversation about because it's nice to gauge where the community stands.

2
Yenaro•

People can use tools all they want, at the end of the day the creativity of the design is what matters most.

5
SSakuras•

Hmm.... I'm all for transparency but I don't expect people to be honest about it. Who would want to admit to breaking SE's ToS? They'd be afraid of getting in trouble. The average person would only admit that to someone they trust to not turn them in, and usually that's someone they know irl or someone they know who also does it and is cool with it.

5
thevampirelematt•

You know I didn't even know there were such tools, fucking sign me up

5
thewiccachick•

Wait what?? I had no idea about this. Is this why I strain my brain looking at builds thinking how is this possible.

4
Yenaro•

99% of the time, it's someone doing it legitly. it just takes a ton of mundane floating at times.

1
thewiccachick•

Lord yes. I'm still new at housing and keep rebuilding to try harder floats/glitches etc to get better. I enjoy it.

1
BrushInk•

No. Third party tools are against tos. Saying that they used third party tools is openly asking se to ban them.

4†
MissLief•

I don't know why you're getting downvoted because you are right; this is basically a main reason as to why a lot of people won't openly admit to using third party tools. It's a bannable offense, it breaks the ToS.

2†
Saiing•

Personally I don't really give a shit.

All that matters to me is how beautiful the design is. What people used to achieve it matters little.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2†
FFSnipeOP•

I understand that. I am not pointing fingers at anyone.

Only tabletop items and wall items can be sunken below the basement floor. Nothing else can, but I have seen designs on here that show exactly that.

I slightly edited the wording to be more clear.

edit to your edit

I am not saying stuff cant be floated. I know it can be.

is everyone missing the point of my post or something?????????????

10
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
FFSnipeOP•

(those slanted skylights and partitions)

meaning the slanted ones.

which nobody has found a way to float yet without the tool

2
lazyconfetti•

I think people have been able to float them a bit with storage glitch though? https://imgur.com/a/74lCIps

0
lazyconfetti•

I think it's hard to say without seeing examples... I haven't noticed anything that has an impossible design, but I also don't analyze every single post in minute detail. I also think that people are willing to do very tedious, boring glitches to get to what they want, or to block off sections of their house even if they lose space or make certain things unusable. I mean there are super cute door designs out there that make the door uninteractable, which should probably be something that's pointed out when these designs are shared.

So overall yeah, it's fine to point these out to new users, but I don't think it's realistic to force people to risk a ban by admitting they used a third party tool - I also wouldn't want to accuse someone of it when maybe they just spent hours trying to glitch something perfectly.

-1
Aifnia•

Honestly, I don't think the disclosure of using a third party tool particularly matters. Most of the designs I've seen on here can be done 100% without using a third party tool. A ton of crazy stuff can be achieved just using the float glitch, storeroom glitch, under the stairs glitch, outside of the walls glitch, etc. No third party required.

When I see items that have clearly been placed using third party tools, my thought process goes, verbatim, "Oh, someone's been naughty. Oh well." and I move on without a second thought. I think that the functionality of these third party tools is something that square absolutely should add to their housing UI because, as we have seen, the depth of creativity that people can get into when they break some of the limitations is astounding. I would literally kill for pixel perfect or Z axis control, but the ban-hammer freaks me out a little too much.

2
SilverFoxfire•

As a PS4 user, I really wish that SE would just find a way to let us place anything where we want to. :(

2
CitryKat•

I feel similarly to the OP in that I am primarily concerned with objects that are placed in impossible locations. While I am willing to contend with frustrating camera angles, pixel hunts and placing from storage a dozen times until I get it just right I completely understand if others are not. And while I don't support the use of programs to help, I don't oppose it either provided we're still playing within the same sandbox. It's quite irksome however when you see a design and think "Oh cool, I was trying to achieve a similar look. How did they solve [problem I ran into]?" Only to discover they did not solve nor find a creative workaround, instead they 'cheated' to avoid it.

No matter how pretty the house looks in the end, if it's noticeable that they used 3rd party programs it loses a significant portion of imaginary housing points. I am less likely to recommend the house to friends and I am more critical of minor mistakes. Ultimately, for me 3rd party programs are the difference between "Wow! I'm impressed. Great job!" and "Looks nice and I like the design, but..."

2