Source
r/Stellaris•
QueenOrial

Nemesis destroyed the agrarian idyll.

Discussion

The whole point and main advantage of agrarian idyll is being able to avoid building city districts which is now completely impossible because they unlock building slots now instead of pops. For some reason PDX didn't bother to change it's effects like they did with cutthroat politics or corvee system, thus completely destroying this trait in term of both balance and immersion. This desperately needs to be fixed, agrarian idyll should have it's own way to unlock building slots, probably locked to the trait so it couldn't be abused by reforming.

Posted Apr 16, 2021, 8:19 AM UTC · edited

40972
pdx_eladrinGame Designer•

You'll still get building slots from capital upgrades and there are a couple of technologies that provide more as well. (Look for the "Infrastructure" line of techs, these in particular also require ship armor techs since it's civilian use of previously military alloys.)

We discussed something like giving them fractional building slots from rural districts internally, but felt that it wouldn't feel appropriate for agrarian idyll to excel at building up a heavily urbanized world covered in building complexes. (That said, since consumer goods and alloys are so important, we also didn't give them a penalty on the industrial district.)

407
[deleted]•

(That said, since consumer goods and alloys are so important, we also didn't give them a penalty on the industrial district.)

I was wondering about that.

Side note (and probably related), is it intended for gaia worlds to have around double pop growth? Because this happened to me, and holy crap.

Also, you guys broke criminal syndicates.

83
pdx_eladrinGame Designer•

is it intended for gaia worlds to have around double pop growth?

Yes, they have increased capacity for undeveloped districts, so they're close to (but not quite) equivalent to a fully developed planet since they're so nice.

Also, you guys broke criminal syndicates.

Yeah, crime doesn't pay. It will again soon. I'm changing criminals to not apply their trade penalty when calculating criminal syndicate branch office value.

151
[deleted]•

Yes, they have increased capacity for undeveloped districts, so they're close to (but not quite) equivalent to a fully developed planet since they're so nice.

Oh, wow. Would that mean they average out to other planets in the late game?

Yeah, crime doesn't pay. It will again soon. I'm changing criminals to not apply their trade penalty when calculating criminal syndicate branch office value.

Oooh... that would increase their branch office value over what they used to get in 2.8. Looking forward to it.

59
pdx_eladrinGame Designer•

Oh, wow. Would that mean they average out to other planets in the late game?

Fully developed planets have capacity equal to their housing. Semi-developed planets get a capacity bonus for the pristine wilderness districts that are undeveloped and unblocked. Tomb Worlds have really low capacity bonuses for those, while Gaia Worlds are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

That makes it so each mining or generator district that you build on a Gaia world will have a bigger impact on the capacity of the planet, slightly incentivizing you to leave it an idyllic paradise.

But we know you're gonna pave it over anyway.

Oooh... that would increase their branch office value over what they used to get in 2.8.

A little bit.

Branch offices in general got more productive (especially on Xenophile-Egalitarian planets) due to the increased trade values for living standards.

69
Jacks_Chicken_Tartar•

It sounds like Gaia worlds would make the best Thrall worlds then. You don't need a lot of development since the unemployed slaves will just become toilers and they all get a big pop-growth boost from it being a Thrall world, and a Gaia world gives extra capacity?

14
Rarvyn•

Makes sense. Thralls in paradise breed more.

8
Matador09•

Have you guys published the actual pop growth equations anywhere?

5
pdx_eladrinGame Designer•

Planetary growth uses the real logistic growth formula, r ( N - N^2 /k - 1 ), except that we cut off the bottom part of the curve because it felt excessively bad. (Normally a very low population would also cause a penalty to growth.)

We use 0.125 as r, N is the current number of pops, k is the carrying capacity of the planet. (k = housing + x per unblcoked and undeveloped district, either 2, 4, or 6 depending on suitability to living in the wild.)

The planetary logistic growth part of the changes mostly increases pop growth (capped at double growth) to partially compensate for the increased growth required per pop. (Especially after we cut out the bottom part of the curve.) It does taper off at the top, but at that point that planet is "done".

u/doctorsandwich8 made a really nice visualization of it.

9
FynzmirsCriminal Heritage•

Does that mean that -10 TV is intended? Will Syndicates be that debilitating to their hosts?

2
pdx_eladrinGame Designer•

Yes, the 10 TV is intended. Crime had no real effect before other than giving you stability from the Crime Lord deal.

3
fake_geek_gurlCriminal Heritage•

Will trade jobs be getting boosts to match the other jobs?

1
Akasha1885•

That's normal pop growth if capacity and population is high enough on a normal world.

2
[deleted]•

Literally read the rest of the reply chain.

1
Eternium_OreShared Burdens•

My first playthrough for 3.0 was a criminal syndicate. I was so confused on why all my branches made negative energy. This clarifies so much.

1
Grisamentum•

Sorry, it's just woefully inadequate though. And some origins don't really work anymore; Mechanist is supposed to start with a Robot Assembly building but it literally breaks on day 1 because there aren't enough building slots for it.

16
Gigaus•

Void Dwellers have the same issue; you start out over admin capacity on day 1, and can't build more except on your capital.

3
EphelemiImperial Cult•

Admin Cap isn't really a big issue in the early game though unless you are a megacorp.

3
Marat1012•

Are Hive Minds with Tree of Life working as intended? I tried two starts yesterday. As a normal empire, the new building system felt sharp, with each pop and building slot being important in the early game. As a Tree of Life hive mind, I felt no pressure with housing and building slots, had plenty of both. Is this intentional or are gestalt empires slated for a balance pass with the new system?

5
MisfortunateFox•

Since you are clearly a gentleperson and scholar, any chance you could look at the bug with raiding bombardment and purge? You can't actually steal pops if they're set to purge. Which sounds fine, but it ruins my necrophaging.

1
DesoLina•

Pls brong back pop growth. My empire is stuck at around 600 and new robo pop costs like a fking cruser.

-17
BrainOnLoan•

Why cling to the number?

How does it compare to other empires?
How is the industrial and researcher output?

5
Freethecrafts•

Your bonus housing means a lot more for endgame population than you seem to realize. It’ll greatly defer pop growth reduction and give you extra migration numbers when jobs get scarce. Agrarian idyll is one of the best civics in the game now.

You can open slots with tech as well. You’re not stuck building city districts. Further, your populations will migrate more; thus giving you more time to research before building slots are necessary.

92
pugesh•

I'm not sure I understand. Could you rephrase?

20
Freethecrafts•

The civic gives +1 housing for the useful districts. That amounts to at least three city districts worth of housing that doesn’t have to built.

Farmers also produce amenities at a high enough rate that one amenities building never has to built.

The way the new population growth system works, more housing than jobs generates migration instead of reducing growth by a huge factor. The civic all but guarantees that anyone who plays in the old way will generate much more population. Building slots are mainly useful for jobs production.

66
[deleted]•

Honestly I find buildings aren't as important as they once were. In most cases I feel I need only 4 or 5 building slots to do what I want. The only time I use all building slots is when I'm making a super specialised research, bureaucracy, or special resource refining world.

42
Gigaus•

Play the update more, you're going to feel it pretty heavily late game. You now have half as many refineries, research, and buro jobs, and habitats can't sustain anything. Between me and small groups of friends that play, the difference is massive now. 'going from having repeatables unlocked in 23xx in a 'small' empire, to only just getting them in 24xx with a large one.

1
[deleted]•

I'm not sure what you mean. I've reached into the 2400's in my current save without any issue. Hit repeatables in the 2300's like normal too. I've found for the most part I am similar power or stronger than in 2.8. The only thing I dislike about 2.8 is that it takes me centuries to fill out a ringworld since by the time you build one you'll already have 1000 pops slowing down all your progress.

5
bot_upboat•

In my save I am the most powerful empire but it feels like everyone got weaker including me

1
Gigaus•

Prior to 3.0, you could do specialized worlds for just Bruo and Research, which in turn would need refineries to manage the upkeep cost. The less you had to mix, the better it would be for colony designation bonuses.

since 3.0 cut build slots in half, you need twice as many planets to get the same as before. And since pop-growth malus is empire wide now, the more planets you have producing pops, the longer it takes for all of them to tick over. Meaning fewer bodies to fill jobs, while more negatives associated with jobs going unfulfilled.

If you're building small, this isn't as much of an issue, you're just locked in place is all. When you start building wide, it becomes unmanagable quickly.

1
QueenOrialOPNoble•

This is only viable for 1x + habitable planets. I used to play 0.25x - 0.5x to keep micromanagement at bay.

-8
monkman315•

Not completely true, I play exclusively on 0.25 and I have never had any issues specializing my planets

29
Apprehensive_Tip1061•

They paved over paradise and put up a city district.

25
haresnaped•

Which, it must be added, helped alleviate traffic congestion in the outskirts of paradise, and allowed work to begin on Paradise City Mall. Checkmate, hippies.

18
jaboi1080p•

helped alleviate traffic congestion in the outskirts of paradise

That is why cities like Dallas and LA have such legendarily few issues with traffic congestion, for sure

10
NegotiationOk4424•

Dallas is considered paradise?

3
Daeva_HuG0Megacorporation•

To those who’ve never been there.

7
QueenOrialOPNoble•

My (not very thought out) solution is to replace city and industrial districts with suburban district which (poorly) takes the function of both. for, say 3 housing, 1 clerk, 1 artisan, 1 building slot (and still affected by city tech/tradition bonuses).

5
Graapefruit•

I’m doing a grand admiral scaling run with agrarian idyll right now and tbh, it feels fantastic. Sure you do need to make a few city districts per planet but that really isn’t a big issue. The issue I’m having with it right now is how easy it is to ecumenopolize your planets, and the fact that Agrarian Idyll misses out on that. I’d prefer if something was given to it to compensate for the loss of the ecu lategame, because right now it really does fall off and you kinda have to replace it later down the road.

5
Velikiy_Knyaz•

IIRC, before the patch you could just drop Agrarian Idyll, pick up the perk, and then retake Agrarian and then still be able to build new Ecumenopolises. I don't know if that's still possible in the current version though

2
Graapefruit•

It probably is, but then the downside is that you’re... doing all that. At that point it’s better to just not re-take AI and continue trucking along and re-add some city districts.

Another thing that also makes AI really good now I remember is that before, you’d just accumulate a ton of excess food, which would just sell for pennies of the galactic market. Now that clone vats have high food upkeep, you actually have a good, sound reason to have a ton of farmers. But of course, I still don’t think it’s -quite- enough to have the civic scale.

5
Darvin3•

I'd agree that Agrarian Idyll is much weaker now, but for a completely different reason: the newly-buffed hydroponics! Starbases are now so good at food production that you really don't need very many farms at all.

5
Sapatilhas•

Same thing with habitats. The habitat "city district" doesn't open any building slots.

Started a void dwellers run, went as far as 2250 but until then I see no way of opening all the building slots in habitats.

4
MrbrkillArtificial Intelligence Network•

That is on purpose in order to make them feel cramped.

5
Sapatilhas•

So there's no way of opening them all?

1
Velikiy_Knyaz•

IIRC, they said somewhere that you'd unlock them through certain habitat techs and though capital building upgrades, though you'd always have fewer building slots than full planets.

9
bot_upboat•

I reached a crisis, I have all techs except a few megastructures and the last 4 building slots of habitats are locked so idk

3
Snoo-9349•

Look at Void Dweller, now you can't get all the slots no matter what you do.

3
KingoftheHill1987Telepath•

Thats kind of the point tho.

Void Dweller was OP as hell before 3.0 along with Shattered Ring

Now Habitats are a lot less powerful but you get more perks from traditions that affect them.

4
Snoo-9349•

I'm just saying it would be nice to be able to get all the slots. My whole thing is nobody denied those two were op, you just played them to have fun. Why isn't Scion nerfed when it's OP too?

1
OtherSpiderOnTheWallDespicable Neutrals•

Free Haven & Nomadic also both need updates, as far as I can tell.

Incidentally, is immigration even more broken than before?

3
Fallsondoor•

don't forget cities help planets grow on other empires by adding at least 1 capacity (more with tech)

2
QueenOrialOPNoble•

Oh, wait, functional architecture now also gives 1 building slot. Seems like agrarian idyll will be manageable if I'll also have functional architecture

1
eaterofbillions•

Its not supposed to be a strong civic.

-1†
BionessFirst Speaker•

It used to be one of the best civics especially when paired with Inward Perfection.

1
Gigaus•

It's PDX; this is the reason they're know for destroying fun in their own games. You play the way they want, or get punished. This is why mods that completely undo/rework patches for their games are so popular.

-1†