Plot holes in AoA?

Adventure Paths & Scenarios

I'm running AoA and we're still playing Cult of Cinders but I'm reading ahead in Tomorrow Must Burn. I've run into a couple of questions.

I'm having trouble understanding what is the PC's hook to go through Dreamgate. How do they know Dreamgate takes them to Kintargo and the Scarlet Triad?

It probably won't matter. My players will probably go through Dreamgate as soon as they get back from Huntergate, skipping the ambush at the wainwright's all together.

How do you explain the impossible coincidence that the portal just happens to take them to their next target? That's an even bigger coincidence than the Cinderclaws happening to have a portkey to Dreamgate!

I know we're running through this slowly so I'm sure a lot of you have made it past this point and I'm wondering how you did it.

Posted Jun 9, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

1023
ConOf7•

I wouldn’t skip the wainwright encounter. Well, it doesn’t need to be at the wainwright’s, but that encounter is the thing that should make the PCs want to go through the next portal. If they haven’t finished book 2 yet, don’t give them the Dreamgate key yet. Let them have some Downtime in Breachill (see my post here for how I ran the remodeling of the Citadel), and then have Halbert (or whatever his name is) show up with the key. Justify it by thinking that Laslunn so desperately wants to raid Breachill that she sent him with the key to find out were it pops out. Then, when the party inevitably defeats him, they’ll have the next key and the knowledge that there’s probably bad guys on the other side that need to be stopped. And like I said, it doesn’t need to be the wainwright. I had him kidnap Warble and hold her hostage at Guardian’s Way (my version of Voz had also survived up to that point, so there’s that. She’s actually still alive. She’s blind, has a witch dedication now, and is an ally of my party, but that’s just what happened at my table). Anyway, that’s just my advice from on AoA GM to the another.

13
digitalpacman•

That makes no sense. There is nothing connecting scarlet triad to dreamgate... this is literally in the OPs post.

Why would you manually walk there instead of just using the portal? That would be a literal surprise attack. This makes no sense at all. This is literally what the cinder claws did. They sent a scouting party. Their mistake was sending the key through, which isn't necessary.

This book as written gives 0 motivation for players to use the dreamgate key other than for exploration sake.

-3
ConOf7•

The Scarlet Triad (presumably) don’t know where the portal ends up. They know where Alseta’s Ring is, but they wouldn’t have any reason to know where the second portal is located. It’s not a stretch to think Laslunn (who has an itchy trigger finger) to send the key to Breachill to find out exactly where the second portal is.

You’re right that the book does a poor job of providing an explicit motivation for the PCs to go through Dreamgate. My proposal is to provide an implicit motivation: the Scarlet Triad are bad news and wanted to use the portal. Let’s see what they were after. Oh look, there’s the plot.

2
digitalpacman•

I guess. I guess it's just hard to explain risking unique treasured items like that. Why not a level 5 sending spell instead? Why do you have to bring the key? That part makes no sense. Also I thought the location of dreamgates exit wasn't a secret. I'll have to reread

0
Alarion_IrisarGM•

Note: all this is major spoiler territory. So's the question, though, so here goes:

​

Normally the ambush happens and Heuberk Thropp demands the key to the gate. That should clue the players in that it's worth investigating. The Scarlet Triad isn't good news - they were active in the first two books, in the background.

It's not a coincidence that the Triad is active in all the regions around the portals. They want to take over those regions via the portals - a huge logistical advantage. Their forces around the portals (Voz Lirayne, the Cinderclaws, Laslunn and Ilssrah Embermead) are advance forces. They try to make the regions ready for takeover once the portals come online and reinforcements can be very easily provided. They are also looking for keys. Makes sense that more keys would be in areas around the portals. And they are right, too - in all books the heroes can find another portal key.

So without the interference of the party, the Triad would be able to find the keys eventually, activate the portals and become major forces in the areas around the Aiudara Gates.

That whole final plan to dominate Mengkare and Dahak's Wrath is kinda outlandish, but could even work too.

9
digitalpacman•

This is a good description but I don't know if any players would come to that long winded conclusion without insider knowledge.

1
Alarion_IrisarGM•

Well, if they care they should really question the villains. Or use divination magic or downtime research. Then they can get the info.

2
frackzillaOPGM•

You guys are giving me Rockstar level advice! Thank you.

5
Cyris38•

One change I made. I gave eclipse to Hueberk. In my game, he was sent here to analyze the PCs and see if he could try activating one of the portals without them knowing. Lasluun pushing more than perhaps her supervisors want, but that's up to you. With this, your players get as much downtime as you want to give them before starting the next book.

4

You’re right that the book does a poor job of providing an explicit motivation for the PCs to go through Dreamgate. My proposal is to provide an implicit motivation: the Scarlet Triad are bad news and wanted to use the portal. Let’s see what they were after. Oh look, there’s the plot.

I did the same thing and it worked great to give the PCs some angry motivation to go through the gate. In my game I had Hueberk kidnap Crink who the PCs had many dealings with. The PCs show up and quickly rescue Crink but refused to hear what Hueberk had to say, instead telling him to show up the next day at Citadel Altaerein.

Hueberk shows up and has a fruitless negotiation with the PCs and then stomps off around the castle to be followed stealthily by the PCs who then flip out when they see Hueberk and his pack of sneaks opening up the secret passage in the back to leave which motivated the PCs to attack and take Hueberk prisoner and get the next key. The PCs were really worried they were going to walk into Scarlet Triad HQ when they went through the gate.

1
SporkedupGM•

This is something you'll need to be paying attention to. There are a number of points in the campaign, particularly in every book when they're looking at the next gate, where players can easily go "why on earth do we want to go in there?"

Book 2 was actually the hardest for me. A bunch of jungle cultists had just come through there... several of the players were more interested in filling the gate room with rubble and never dealing with an attack from their basement (actually it took some time for me to convince them that they were, in fact, supposed to have the castle and it wasn't some weird Hellknight trap or something).

For book 3, I literally had Thropp give up the information that the Triad was hunting the shorelines for the other end of the gate. The players figured they could go there and disrupt that hunt, keeping themselves safe.

Book 4, one of the party had been petrified right at the end of book 3. No one in the party could do it. I leaked information to them that the dwarven city on the other end of the gate could fix him.

Book 5, they knew where it went and they knew the Triad was headquartered there. By this point they were pretty excited to start striking serious blows to the heart of the organization.

I don't think book 6 will be too tough, but I'm a few weeks out from that. Plus I'll probably rewrite the entire first chapter, we'll see.

3
lostsanityreturned•

How do you explain the impossible coincidence that the portal just happens to take them to their next target?

The scarler triad are looking for the gates and have been all this time? Not a huge coincidence.

That's an even bigger coincidence than the Cinderclaws happening to have a portkey to Dreamgate!

I gave it to the elves, they didn't reveal they had it until after the PCs had assisted them. As guardians of the gate/temple it made sense.

2
phie1337•

I think its actually written like this, the elves give eclipse to the pcs after they finished the mwangi stuff

2
lostsanityreturned•

even better then, it has been a long time since I ran that module.

1

My PCs captured Voz rather than kill her. They had Alak still with them so I ran it such that Alak volunteered to take her back to Breachill to turn in, but she managed to wound him and escape. Voz will be driving a lot of the Dreamgate and Scarlet Triad urgency.

2
Xris375Game Master•

While it doesn't make sense to the players, there is no coincidence Scarlet Triad is hanging around the portals. Book 5 and 6 explains it somewhat. If you get comments from the players that they feel it is too weird, tell them there are reasons and that it will be explained in due time.

2
frackzillaOPGame Master•

Good to know. I haven't read past book 3 yet.

1
piesou•

The Triad has access to the keys and uses them to organize their business. It also mentions that BBEG of book 3 is looking into invading Breachill to root out the problem of other people using the gates. The wrainwright encounter should be a hint that the players likely can't ignore the gate.

Also do yourself a favor and skip Cypress Point and chapter 2; just homebrew it based on the setting information in the back of the book.

1
ConOf7•

I’m curious why you say to skip Cypress Point and an entire chapter?

1
piesou•

It adds very little to the story, can easily be derailed because it's extremely linear and you'll fight tons and tons of similar enemies. My players accidentally skipped half of it by going in a different direction.

The backmatter in this book is good. If I had the chance to run it again, I'd let them visit the water elves city and flesh out the other places in Ravounel. I'll probably let them defend a city against a Scarlet Triad attack, throw in some Hell Knights encounters and let them uncover a few Triad conspirators in other towns.

There's also a great hook where it mentions that the Silver Ravens? are currently busy handling some stuff in the Darklands. There you could foreshadow the next book and include some encounters with Duergar or Drow that are interested in the Triads slave trade.

There's so much that could have been really.

1
Pyrojam321moo•

My party is in the same location book-wise and I've also been thinking that they would probably also rush portals. The way I'm planning on delaying them is by using their existing fear that the portals are filled with horrible dragon ghosts. I'm going to have the Ekujae ask them to please wait for them to send someone, that someone being Nketiah and a small retinue, to investigate Dreamgate before they use it, to make sure it's safe. The Ekujae refuse to go through Huntersgate, or any of the aiudara, for the sensible reason that they trapped a god in there and he might be slightly miffed about that still, so they have to make an overland journey. As for the other gates, they'll continue their investigation whenever they get the appropriate keys (Something I plan to make mandatory for finding out anything about what's on the other side), and I'll use those to hint at what the final encounters in the last book are going to be.

As for the coincidence, it's going to not be a coincidence. My Laslunn intercepted the key for the next portal as part of her inherent distrust in being kept out of the loop. She did her own research into these aiudara, with Voz helping her, and located hints of one on the coastline of Ravounel. In the last three months or so, she's been pushing to get shop set up in that country so that she can find this gate and figure out how to use the key to open it. She doesn't know that each gate requires a specific key, she just wants in on this "weapon" that the Triad are trying to get their hands on. It is coincidence that the party will arrive there right when the Triad is about to find the gate, but no more than standard adventurer luck. You get there when trouble starts, you signed up for that when you took a class level.

1
extremeasaurus•

I spun the reasoning for the elves giving it to the party as the revelation in belmazogs notes (or from her directly if she lives) that someone was financing the cinderclaws to let them "try" to revive their god is one that the ekujae are very much inclined to prevent, as their ancestors were the ones to originally seal it away. They won't travel through the rest of the gates themselves as they believe it to be corrupted with dahaks influence, so they are essentially entrusting the players to seek out the other sides of the gates and figure out a way to remove the possible corruption from the gates and at the very least gives them that as a driving force if they get stuck on what to do next.

As for heuberk, I enjoyed his encounter. It serves as the party's initial contact with an organization they have heard of multiple times in the first two books and reveals the sneaky and underhanded techniques they will apply to get what they want. His notes about being sent here by his Superior from Kintargo gives them a reason to go there, the slavers have targeted a town that should be dear to the players at this point.

As for the convenience of dreamgate taking them right there? I just chalk it up to poor narrative. I think it would have been more interesting if perhaps the gate took them closer to Nidal. Gives a more solid reason for that kuthonian cleric to be there, and makes his escort to Kintargo a little more of a hook.

1
evilshandieGM•

I did similarly to several people here and gave Eclipse to Thropp. The Triad made arrangements with Voz to locate and secure Alseta's Ring, and she hasn't reported back weeks or months later. So Laslunn gives the key to Thropp and tells him to go see what's going on with Voz, and to be a little more proactive in securing the gate, then to return via Dreamgate, thus identifying the Kintargan side of the gate which the Triad hasn't found yet. Thropp gets into town and Voz is (dead or arrested) and a new group of heroes have set themselves up in the Citadel, and there's rumors that they vanished for a while without going anywhere and returned with items from the distant jungle, so he has reason to believe the gate must be connected to the heroes and the citadel. Cue the wainwright kidnapping.

1
digitalpacman•

That's an even bigger coincidence than the Cinderclaws happening to have a portkey to Dreamgate!

The cinderclaws don't have eclipse. The elves do. The elves also had the hunter arrowhead. But cinderclaws stole it in a fight.

1
feelsbradman95GM•

Well at minimum Voz’s notes should somewhat connect the idea that all these rings would make a great bounty for an organization....

Furthermore, the kidnapping of the wainwright should suggest that the ST knows about the ring and are a looming threat.

If you still need more, have Alak or the council approach the PCs about investigating since who knows what is on the other side (could be dangerous); etc

1