Source
r/tennis•
SnatchingDefeat

After declining the Lucky Loser slot last night against Andy Murray, Pierre-Hugues Herbert and Max Purcell are now in the second round of the main draw of the Winston-Salem Open.

Discussion

Today, 7th seeded Nikoloz Basilashvili and 8th seeded John Millman withdrew from the Winston-Salem Open. They were replaced by Pierre-Hugues Herbert and Max Purcell, who each lost in the last round of qualifying yesterday, and then subsequently declined the lucky loser spot against Andy Murray, which was accepted by Noah Rubin.

So by losing in qualifying, and then declining the lucky loser spot, they advance to the second round of the tournament and get a day of rest before playing an unseeded player.

Posted Aug 24, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

17459
quizzicalsmolGOATic van de zandschulp•

this whole situation really screwed rubin over huh

104
DanielWhatUPs•

Maybe it will teach him a lesson about playing for free

-4
themang0•

Genius maneuver

70
timb1223•

Apparently there's a strategy to this whole lucky loser thing.

63
insty1•

Max Purcell is really Bradburying his way into tournaments.

44
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I had to look that term up. That is the greatest gold medal win I have ever seen. I hope to Bradbury my way through the rest of my life.

28
Level99CookingRadwanska Ivanovic Dementieva Petrova Berdych Ferrer Nalbandian•

Watch the semi final too if you haven't yet

17
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

Damn, and he only got through the quarters because of an obstruction. What a hero. Not the fastest speed skater, but the absolute best at hanging around the back waiting on the fast guys to knock each other down.

11
Level99CookingRadwanska Ivanovic Dementieva Petrova Berdych Ferrer Nalbandian•

He was actually the favourite at an earlier Olympics and then came back for 2002 as a swansong after almost dying in a skating incident. Karma came through for him

9
ota00ota•

guy literally just luckying himself everywhere, he was not getting into challenger main draws a year ago

1
RustedRelics•

This seems like a loophole, no? I.e., something that could (should?) be prevented in the rules. Is this common?

15
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I feel like if you decline a Lucky Loser spot, that should be a wrap for you for that tournament. No one else can turn down a main draw spot and hope for something better in the same draw the next day.

37
sarmatronFunky Flo's 2H volleys•

you're solving a problem that doesn't exist. there's nothing wrong with the LL system. everything that's fucked up in this situation stems from Winston-Salem's stupid fucking idea to start the tournament on the same day qualifying ends.

22
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

Agree to disagree. I think replacing some players but not others in the second round is a problem irrespective of the tournament schedule.

8
sarmatronFunky Flo's 2H volleys•

replacing some players but not others in the second round

can you clarify here? i don't think this is happening.

2
koticgood•

Why?

What unfairness does this prevent? Any lucky loser slot going to the highest ranked player makes sense, for fairness and for spectators.

There's no guarantee another slot opens up, not by a long shot.

It just made sense to decline last night, regardless of the rule.

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SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

It's unfair that a lucky loser gets a better draw than every other unseeded player. It's unfair that a lucky loser is the only classification of player who is allowed to gamble for a better draw. It's unfair that a lucky loser gets a full day's rest before playing a direct entry who played the day before.

It is often better to be the top ranked lucky loser than to be a qualifier. If I were the top seed in the last round of qualifying, there is zero chance I'd give max effort. If I lost the first set, it'd be over.

0†
koticgood•

Lmao, so you'd give up a sure chance of getting in the draw just to tank it and assume someone is withdrawing?

And what exactly is the fair way to replace someone who withdraws then?

3
dasheeshblahzen•

Wait what? Do they get paid also?

11
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I'm not sure if they get 2nd round money if they lose. I think Millman and Basilashvili would still get it since they were on site.

12
dasheeshblahzen•

So Millman and Basilashvili get it for just being on site and not playing, and Herbert and Purcell only get it if they win.

14
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I think so. That's why Noah Rubin got zero dollars for playing Murray last night. Kyrgios got that money for showing up and not playing.

25
Beneficial-Ad4904•

Not true, Nick did not get paid and Noah got first round loser share. Im not sure if he got the points as if he qualified though, I suspect he did

1
Mister_Lizard•

I think they're getting ranking points though, which are pretty valuable to them.

3
LeftHandDriveBoC•

So in other words, everyone is good except for Rubin who got screwed over by deicidng to play?! Seems like a joke that he played for free yesterday and gets nothing out of it except to say he played against Murray. The loopholes in these rules need looking into.

7
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I don't know about that. Compare Pouille or Popyrin's path to the second round to Herbert's. Pouille and Popyrin have played and won every single day for three straight days, and now have to play a well-rested seeded player in the third round.

Herbert, conversely, played two days, lost the second, and then gets a full day of rest before playing an unseeded player who played the previous day.

The current system creates huge inequities that favor late-entry lucky losers and seeded players over direct entrants and qualifiers.

3
ChertanianArmyKaratsev | Safiullin | Shevchenko | Purcell | Marcondes | Piros•

Late entry lucky losers are rare in itself. To use that loophole you need to be sure that a seed will be out

2
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I agree that it's relatively rare, but I think the practice of feeding lucky losers directly into the second round with a seeded player's draw should be abolished. It creates too much inequity. It happened twice this week in a 48-player field.

Furthermore, the current practice also benefits seeded players. Hurkacz effectively got a double bye in Canada and guaranteed third round prize money without hitting a shot.

2
Dupinguez•

Not sure I get how this works. Anyone care to explain?

3
timb1223•

When a player withdraws before playing their first round, lucky losers are selected from among the highest ranked players who lose in the final round of qualifying. Depending on the tournament, sometimes the highest ranked loser automatically qualifies, sometimes it's a random draw between several losers (this helps discourage scenarios where players lose on purpose if they believe a spot will be waiting for them in the main draw anyway).

In this particular case, after Kyrgios withdrew minutes before his match, Herbert and Purcell (being the 2 highest ranked losers in qualifying) turned down the opportunity to step in on such short notice. Thus, the spot went to the 3rd highest ranked loser, Rubin. Subsequently, two more players (Basilashvili & Millman) withdrew from the tournament, opening up 2 more spots which went back to Herbert and Purcell. Since Basilashvili and Millman were both seeded, they had byes in the first round, so the lucky losers also receive byes.

10
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

How did Watanuki get a main draw spot before Herbert and Purcell?

3
timb1223•

Good question. Maybe they did do a random draw after all then? Does anyone know for sure that Herbert and Purcell turned down Rubin's spot, or was that just assumed since they were ranked higher?

2
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

It's been confirmed that Purcell and Herbert declined, both by Murray and Rubin. Check the Winston-Salem Open's twitter feed for video. Murray also mentioned it in his post-match interview, and said that if he'd drawn a qualifier, his match would've been postponed.

I suspect that both Rubin and Watanuki accepted a 50/50 proposition that they'd have to play Murray right then and there, whereas Purcell and Herbert did not. I'm speculating a bit based on the timing of the Moutet/Kyrgios withdrawals.

3
SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

Lucky Loser rules are pretty confusing and vary depending on the level of the tournament. I summarized what happened, and I think the unfairness in it is obvious.

If you want to know why it happened, or how it could have happened, you're welcome to dig in to the ATP rules. I did that yesterday and came away more confused than I started.

3
kmags1966•

Every pro that takes the court deserves financial compensation. No matter the match background if you play at this level you should be paid.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

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SnatchingDefeatOPNovax 💉 Djokovic•

I think you may be missing the point.

2
neyiat•

Maybe a bit off topic, but I find WTA's point distribution a lot fairer than ATP.

1