Just a lil pep talk before going into m+
Posted Aug 31, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC
20247
And people wonder why so many people have been pushed away from the game.
When your core character progression content leads to this sort of behavior and community, you end up with a game that is quite far removed from its former self.
Look at the rest of the group in your example, they aren't enjoying the game.
The only solution is to remove timers from core content and character progression, that way the group leader won't have to be so Gordon Ramsay, leading to everyone feeling less pressure and being able to enjoy themselves more.
Timers breed toxicity on any content that is deemed a must-do for character progression, they should be attached to competitive (esports) content and cosmetic (mage tower, challenges) content only.
Players will naturally speed runs up as they deem fit, they don't want to be told how fast they should be going and then have their character's progression locked behind such a system.
Timers in must-do content create a negative feedback loop of toxic behavior, fear, and anxiety.
21
I think it would be cool to have the mythic+ timers start at 0:00 and go up instead of counting down.
M+ score would depend on how many dungeons you completed in full, and there can be a leaderboard of some kind that shows the fastest runs---the two not being tied to each other.
Then it's more about completion for those that just want score and loot, and more about timing for those who want leaderboard glory.
14
I really like this idea.
3
That's a great idea.
1
If you did it that way, with timers going up and score being based on fast time. How would the progression system look like? What would determine if the 23 you did rewards you with a 24?
1
the only thing to watch out for is finding a way to protect players from themselves
that is, prevent groups from engaging in self-harm by staying in the same dungeon that's too hard for them for 6 hours
i know it sounds stupid, but in an mmo you have to plan for every incentivized mode of play
0
People can already do that now for weekly chest loot, and it's really rare.
2
i agree absolutely.
i think timed dungeons and (ironically) pvp arenas were among the most harmful additions to the game, taking inherently social activities and making them "e-sporty"
5
For sure, but there still should be timed and 'e-sporty' content for those that enjoy that sort of thing. It just shouldn't be tied to core content.
Personally, I think arenas are fine as content, but the whole system is in dire need of modernization for those that participate and to also draw in new participants.
2
blizzard is clearly just insecure about activities not being participated in
they just have to put a bunch of gear rewards behind arenas and timed dungeons, to funnel players who aren't interested towards them
i think back in mop and wod the mythic dungeons (or their equivalent) just rewarded transmog and they weren't very popular
2
Yeah you're right, and it pretty much sums up the fact the majority are chasing character progression for core gameplay, but if that core content creates toxic behavior, fear, and anxiety, people will not play.
2
Totally agree, I think timers have no place in the core of character progression. Especially with how the vault works. There's a reason why the m+ community is so toxic.
The dungeon challenge in mop were fine. You had mount and cosmetic reward and you didnt feel like you had to do it. For most of my guild, m+ is a weekly chore more than anything.
2
Exactly!
1
[deleted]
0
I'm not trying to insult timers. I think timers are a great idea to use for players that want to seek extra rewards for being exceedingly talented at the game.
However, while they should be rewarding those talented players with cosmetics and recognition, they should not be excluding the general population of players from the game (character progression) for not being at that level.
1
like nobody is forcing you to push mythic keystones, you can just chill out and run whatever if you want to
-8
I agree with you that you can chill out and run whatever you want, however this approach locks you out of the core mechanic of the game (character progression).
It's not necessarily about chilling out, for most players there would be no point in playing if there was no challenge at all. However, the effect that using timers as a difficulty has had on the general population of players is becoming clearer as time goes on.
I disagree with nobody forcing players to push mythic keystones. Once you have finished gearing from heroics and M0s, you cannot play any higher difficulty dungeons without having a timer attached to them.
I think this creates a large gap in end game content for those that can't commit to raids, but want to progress their characters and play the game at a higher difficulty without the pressures and negative effects that arise from the use of a timer.
5
I had a nice dps asking at start of a 20 TOP if we could do this route. I said, I'd like to do this pull instead. He says, we will do the route I posted.
Well, guess there's no way to be nicer about it if he 100% demands it one way. Nicer than Gordon. In the end I forgot one of the random packs the route given to me had, and nobody else realized that either. 45s over time when we had to go for 3% after last boss. Unlucky. Biggest shock was that I wasn't blamed for it.
13
I like seeing the routes other people share, since as a tank you don't get to see anything other than what you do unless you off spec dps or play any other characters. I had a really good mage that had a route with pulls around his cool downs, we +2 it whereas normally I struggled to time it.
6
I think one of the things that has improved my tanking the most (besides watching better tanks stream) has been playing a DPS class to watch what other tanks do.
That being said, I hate trying to get into groups as a DPS... So used to being insta-invited as a tank.
4
SORRY HEAR THAT ABOUT YOUR FAIL !!! NEXT TIME ROOT IT UP!!!
2
RIP Petrozza btw. What a great guy.
6
Yeah that master chef guy is brutal
1
[deleted]
5
⚠️insecure tank alert
-5
[deleted]
1
I think youre replying to the wrong person, neither am I crying nor am I interrupting 0 spells.
0
Lol
3
I mean, sure. Go find yourself another 245 ilvl KSM tank who wants to do your little key. Plenty of other groups would appreciate my talents.
I hope your next tank is from Rag and doesn't even speak english
3
⚠️insecure tank alert
-10
Insecure how? Because I have KSM and fairly good gear?
Route doesn't even matter all that much except for Wake which you want to call out what bosses to lust and spear. Other than that most dungeons are pretty linear. Like, Mists you are pretty much locked in until after the 2nd boss. Sure there are little things like an extra trash pack if the maze doesnt go right first or pulling the middle bugs for % but there isn't a ton of agency.
DOS I guess does have some agency in route.
2
Insecure because you think this is anything other than a joke and you think this applies to you.
1
"You fucking donkey!"
1
Alright, imma hold it till we're done.
1
Lol
1
Okay so I have been listening to this a couple of times and I really can’t understand the voice over. Can someone translate so I can be in on the fun as well lol
0
Alternative title: Why is it so hard to find a tank?
i abandoned my pally tank completely, memorizing pulls, routes, etc is just so miserable. I love raid tanking, you go in, do your mechanics, slap the boss, yada yada. Tanking m+ is just awful.
Now that i'm actually playing again after like 4 months, i just sit around on my resto druid and do 2-5 keys, i'm having a blast
On the contrary i find it really fun learning routes, trying some random new route i make in mythic dungeon tools, it's satisfying as hell
Same, M+ tanking has so much room to min max and experiment, whereas raid tanking makes me wanna quit this game. Taunt at 1/2 stacks, occasionally move boss zzzzz.
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Even when doing a route perfectly, there will sometimes be that one dps that complains its wrong and we should be doing a different route. As if that matters in the very middle of a dungeon
Routes aren't the sole responsibility of tanks. Tanking m+ is great and the most challenging content available.
Because tanking is really boring and unrewarding unless you're Druid or DH.
Paladins are weirdly squishy even though they have amazing utility (especially bubble) and decent rotation/damage. They're in a weird mitigation spot between Warrior and Blood DK where they have to pick between squishy Warrior (Shield spam) or squishy Blood DK (Word spam), and even with infinite Holy Power you'll still be squishier than a Blood DK or Warrior.
Monks are not terrible but at the same time not good enough reason to play over a DH or Druid. Rotation is really boring. Breath of Fire baseline duration being shorter than the cooldown is really unintuitive, with both the Talent and Legendary not fixing the fundimental problem and being inferior choices to just Keg spam.
Blood DK has the absolute worst rotation and resource management of all of them and you already softcap haste faster than any tank through Bone Shield, and even with Superstrain and Blood Link your damage is still below other tanks. Absolutely no way to generate/refresh Bone Shield during intermission phases like Painsmith. Rune Tap could at least generate one Bone Shield charge or something to fix this.
Warriors are fun to play, but there's almost no reason to play one as a tank when you could just play a DH instead. Even in BFA the only reason was because of meme damage (rip Tclap / Twilight Dev). WotLK Prot War was peak (including shield slam memes), and other than Heroic Leap (which DH does infinitely better) I can't see any good reason to keep playing a Prot Warrior in post-WotLK WoW other than misplaced nostalgia hoping the FotM Balance Wheel lands favorably.
DH is actually not as good or dominant as it was in 9.0... In fact, the only reason it was so heavily chosen was the fact that all the other tanks were pretty terrible.
Tanks have never been more balanced and DKs for example, are doing some of the highest keys. Warrior tanks doing 25s 26s. In fact, all tanks are doing 24-26 keys, every single one is as good as the other in their own ways so, it's never been a better time to be a tank as you have so much variety.
People say Bear is the best, it's only because in Incarn windows you're basically unkillable but, for 90% of the player base, there's no reason to do pulls where you need that huge crutch.
I've got KSM on DH (9.0), Prot Warr (9.0.5), got it on BM Monk in 9.1 and almost got it on Guardian.
Monk for me so far, has been the best, does great damage, great utility, one of if not the best M+ tool in ring of peace and insane mobility. I love monk so much it's now my main.
Paladin requires skill to play properly. You can have a pala tank who barely needs any healing or you can have a pala tank who eats so much shit that you drop a Vesper Totem and don’t have three GCDs to squeeze in damage abilities during its whole duration
This has to be one of the worst takes on tanking I've ever seen. I've played all tanks in this expansion, and admittedly I only currently play 3 in the current tier, but to me it seems like you play none of them.
Guardian druid: You list this as one of the only two specs that aren't unrewarding/boring, when arguably they have the simplest rotation of all time. I could literally do a cqs macro that includes thrash, swipe and fur and mash that throughout the dungeon and I imagine that most people wouldn't notice a difference. Is it still fun to play? Most definitely, since you get to do some extremely dumb pulls when you have cds up and feel like a brick wall, but don't spout nonsense like this tank has a leg up on others because they're the most meta tank right now.
VDH: For most people this is a 2 button class that requires you to press fracture->soulcleave and then repeat that and sprinkle cds. It's definitely noticeable when you've got a dh that knows how to rotate the rest of his cds but imo it just doesn't stand out all that much.
Prot Pala: I've found pala's to be on the squisher side aswell, but at the same time I've not bothered to push high on my pala so I haven't needed to. They output a dps worth of dmg in most keys if you pick either of the two meta covenants, and it's frankly one of the most enjoyable experiences to blast 20k dps on a pack, and never have to worry about threat ever. Like you say yourself, you have all this great stuff like dmg, utility, offhealing, and basically mutliple avenues of how you would like to play, that I frankly can't see how one shortcoming in terms of tankiness (which I'm personally not sure is even there if you look at rio leaderboards) can make you have a negative perception of the class.
Brew Monk: One of the classes that I've played the least so I'll refrain on commenting on this but the whole "rotation is boring" just rings hollow when you say that druid and dh has interesting rotations.
BDK: This has been my favorite tank for the past 2 expansions (and likely wouldve been in legion aswell, had I played it), and to say that the rotation is the worst is just insanity to my ears. You are in complete control over your own life and a well played bdk can keep themselves alive where no other tank stands a chance. You get punished hard for fucking up and it gets dumb when you get into high keys since you get into the 1 global and I'm dead territory but again this doesn't seem to be your gripe with the spec. The damage is subpar for sure, and it's frustrating to lose threat to dps but all that is imo made up for by having the most engaging tank spec out of all. Also I don't get how you just pick a single raid encounter and go "yea bad mitigation" when on 99% of the encounters you face, having 5+ boneshields is a breeze.
Prot War: One of the most fluent tanks in the game where you get rewarded to an insane degree if you can manage your entire kit. You've got one of the most unique tools in spell reflect and intervene which unlocks a whole world of little things that you can improve and help the group with. The only thing that DH has got going, that warrior doesn't, is that they deal with magical damage better, so while there are instances where a dh would fare better, the same could be said for a lot of different tanks in different scenarios.
You seem like an extremely jaded individual who doesn't seem to have much clue in what you are talking about. If you want a proper idea of what a class is like, don't just look at leaderboards or play them for a single dungeon/raid boss.
Switched from BDK to BRM main this season and BRM has an amazingly fun rotation and RoP is one of the most fun single abilities for tanking classes imo.