Analysing FSN #14: Illya Appreciation Post

UBW Spoiler

I figured this would just be a brief look at Illya in UBW to go with the post I did about her in the Fate route, but I got a bit carried away and went over all the Illya scenes in Fate again. Consider this an attempt to explain why I like her so much. You know, without covering anything from Heaven’s Feel. It would be too easy otherwise.

Last time I talked about Illya, one of the things I noted is that while it can seem like she has two separate personalities – a childlike one and an adult one – the distinction isn’t nearly that clear. When she’s supposedly acting as child-Illya, she’ll still say things like this. It’s not that she swaps between innocence and ruthlessness, it’s that they’re juxtaposed - both present at once. Look at her first fight against Shirou and Rin, where she smiles happily while ordering Berserker to kill them.

However, that’s not to say there’s no basis for this impression that Illya flips between multiple personas. Let’s look at facial expressions. You might recognize these two. The furrowed brow and direct look are characteristic of Illya when she’s acting as a Master, and when she suddenly shifts into this mode in the middle of a conversation it’s really striking. Furthermore, there are consistent differences in the way she behaves in this state, to the point where I wouldn’t blame someone for thinking she’s a different person. Let’s examine a few of these differences.

The most notable is probably the harshness of her language. She’s often insulting or demeaning to other characters. It seemed somewhat incongruous to me in the Fate route – she didn’t seem the type to boast about how powerful she was, and I wouldn’t have expected her to verbally abuse Berserker either, given that they have a close relationship.

In UBW it’s made clear that this is a learned behaviour - she does this to take out her anger and frustration on others. A similar behaviour is her choice to keep Berserker insane, which she does to emphasize her own self-sufficiency, and is described as a ‘bluff’. Either way she’s hiding her own pain and insecurity by trying to pass it onto others.

However, this doesn’t change the fact that Berserker is the only person she talked to in the castle – despite all of the invective and vitriol, he’s the only person out of all the Einzberns that she cared about enough to acknowledge in words. The fact that this interlude is from the perspective of Berserker is fantastic, by the way. When he says ‘it was only natural’ for her to hate him, that’s just Berserker’s thoughts. He connects the fact that he was summoned as a Servant to her becoming a Master to her hating him, but that might not be what was going through Illya’s mind at all. It does illustrate how bad he feels for all the pain he put her through, though.

Another behaviour adult-Illya displays is formality: when we first meet her, she curtseys and introduces herself. Skip forward to after Berserker is defeated in the Fate route and once again, we see the curtsey as she formally thanks Shirou for letting her stay. In both cases, this is related to her role as a Master, but I find it significant that in her introduction it’s also related to her family name. Indeed, the invocation of her family name is what gets Rin to react to her self-introduction. This is intimately connected to her role as Master insofar as she’s a Master because she’s an Einzbern – another way of putting it is that she’s interchangeable with any other Einzbern homunculus besides the fact she’s a Master. In this way the Einzbern name becomes totalizing and turns Illya into a tool.

Now, the main quality we associate with adults over children is maturity, and Illya has a few moments where she acts more mature than it seems she should be. This moment where she figures out what’s going on between Shirou and Saber is one – that face is extremely smug and knowing. This is also interesting – she admits she had no idea what she was doing when she wanted to talk to Shirou, but then she shows some forethought about what she wants their relationship to be like. Except, it’s complicated somewhat by the fact that acting more maturely (or what they think is mature) is often a characteristically childlike act.

It’s not that I think she’s a child trying to act like an adult in every scene where she acts more mature, it’s just that there’s no clear dividing line between the two! The whole idea of there being an adult- Illya and a child-Illya that are meaningfully distinct starts to collapse when you look at some scenes. For example, that scene of Illya curtseying to Shirou that I mentioned earlier? Immediately followed by this. Was she acting extremely formally here as a joke – i.e. something a kid might do? Or is this just an abrupt transition between adult-Illya and child-Illya personas? Because the ‘adult’ Illya fades away very quickly in some scenes. Here, as soon as Shirou promises to go with her, she instantly returns to how she was before. Before . . . okay, I guess we need to discuss how these changes are provoked in the first place.

In their first encounter in daytime, Shirou pushes Illya when trying to get her to stop, which results in her making this face. Now, it’s fair to call this her ‘resting face’, similar to this one from Saber, but Illya is usually so expressive that this one comes off as quite cold and unemotional. Which is what it’s used for! It comes up when Shirou asks her to stop being a Master, when Shirou ignores her just before she captures him, and when Shirou is about to decide whether he’ll let her stay with him or not. And in many of these situations, it’s a moment of pause, where she shuts off her emotions before becoming adult-Illya.

Now, with what we’ve discussed so far, it seems obvious to me that adult-Illya emerges here as a defense mechanism. Illya chooses to adopt a persona that’s colder, harsher, and less vulnerable that her usual mode of behaviour – one that she’s learnt as a response to painful situations in the past. In other words, as far as there is a ‘real’ Illya, it’s child-Illya. Adult-Illya is just a mask that she will temporarily put on in some situations.

Okay, with this we’ve synthesized the new Illya content in UBW with the thesis of the last post I made about her. This should be quite enough Illya analysis for – haha, just kidding. Let’s keep going.

The fact that what provokes Illya initially is not anything Shirou said, but rather a physical action, is a motif that comes up a few times. In general, there’s a physicality to interacting with Illya that isn’t there as much with other characters – for example, this sprite seems specifically designed so that it looks like Illya is close up to you and grabbing your hand, trying to drag you around, even. Saber will get close but mostly just by zooming into her regular sprite. Illya will just directly invade your personal space, like with this scene. Now, this one is problematic on several levels, so all I’ll do with it right now is note that the dynamic there is all about Shirou not being able to move because he is tied up and Illya taking advantage of that to get uncomfortably close.

So sometimes, Shirou gets fed up and tries to push her away, as we have seen. He repeats this again much later in the dojo, and Illya briefly shows a frightened face. I think the fact that this results in her throwing a tantrum instead of starting to implicitly threaten Shirou is a sign of progress, maybe.

Another more fun way in which a similar dynamic plays out is when Saber is chasing Illya and trying to get her off Shirou. It’s kind of hard to screenshot so just take a look at Seorin’s letsplay version. It’s near the end of the scene. The sprites used here tell a pretty clear story of Illya playing around, Saber trying to grab her, Illya being frightened, Saber going ‘oh shit did I just hurt this child’, and then Illya smiles like she’s having a great time. Saber wonders if Illya was just faking her earlier fright, and as if to confirm her suspicions, Illya sticks her tongue out. And Saber’s back to impotently chasing her around.

Clearly, Illya is experimenting with boundaries. She’s not used to being physically close to other people, so she doesn’t know what the limits are, and she’s not used to other people using force on her either. If anything, this reminds me of an animal that isn’t used to being around humans yet, and oh look, there’s a quote specifically comparing her to an animal in the context of being close to other people. I mean come on just look at the way she looks at the unknown food Shirou shares with her in this same scene. Her hesitation reminds me of feeding a bird or something.

This is around where it hit me that Illya isn’t human, exactly. Multiple times Shirou refers to her as a ‘winter fairy’, and there’s definitely something otherworldly about her. Look at the very first scene she appears to warn Shirou and then immediately disappear again. It feels almost like a dream, especially as the narrative transitions right into the next scene without referring to it ever again.

The fact that she’s the child of a homunculus isn’t really what I mean by ‘not human’ – homunculi can clearly have a similar experience and range of emotions to humans. Her general strangeness is far more a product of her upbringing, spending most of her time alone and secluded inside a winter castle.

It’s part of the reason why Shirou gives her food in the first place. Look at what they’re talking about directly beforehand. Illya mentions that she was locked up in her room for a long time, so she wants to sneak outside now she’s in Japan. It’s ‘she swings her legs and it seems she’s having fun just doing so’ that really gets me. She must have been really deprived if just moving around outside like this is entertaining for her.

From the beginning of the story, Illya is presented as both wealthy and powerful. However, the symbol of that power, Berserker, caused her physical harm and was forced on her without consent. Similarly, the symbol of that wealth, the Einzbern Castle, is used as a prison to keep Illya inside. It’s why I love this quote from her so much. She seems far more authentically free when she’s living at Shirou’s place without any of those things.

I would end here, but there’s one more scene I absolutely have to talk about, and it’s the second time Shirou talks with Illya in the park. The game offers you a choice between going to the park or going straight home, here, and the narration kinda gives the impression that Shirou is aware of this. He’s deliberately choosing to take a different route because he thinks there’s a chance that Illya will be there. But when he finally sees her, his immediate reaction is ‘Why? Why is it like this?’ He seems so genuinely regretful? angry? disappointed? that she would be waiting there alone for hours.

Maybe it’s just my bias speaking, but with a few tweaks this honestly feels like it could have been a climactic moment in the Illya route in the same way that the bridge scene serves for Saber’s. Illya’s initial admission that she will have to kill Shirou soon casts a pall over the conversation - Shirou’s worried insistence that she shouldn’t stay in the cold waiting for him comes up against Illya’s playful carelessness – finally, Shirou can no longer bear how innocently Illya talks about killing people and tries to persuade her to give up on being a Master, only for her to shut him out and run off. As written, it’s less climactic and more comic, but I still can’t get away from that initial image of Illya wandering around the park with a distant look in her eyes. I dunno, I just like her, I guess.

Posted Dec 8, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC · edited

11432
KizuSkipRow•

The propaganda machine in full swing. Let's see if it works out.

39
typellOPwords words words•

i was honestly expecting her to be out already by the time i finished this

in case she gets voted out this round I'll just leave my reaction here in advance

edit: aaaaaand she's gone. :(

22
MasterofAcorns•

I think that photo jinxed her, dude! Even my “Kill Gil: A Spike Lee Collaboration” running gag didn’t speak about what happened to her…

1
TheCreator120•

Ater watching the first opening of Zero again, i'm totally onboard with her winning.

4
Raymond49090•

Honestly I'd be thrilled even if she just manages to beat Cu. Personally though, my reasons for liking her don't run this deep. Sure, my justifications are along similar lines as this, but in all honesty she's just cute. In all seriousness, this is a really well thought out write-up. I think there's research papers that put less effort into it than this. And hey, gives me more excuses to like her, so that's a plus in my books.

1
ENKlDUboner of my sword•

now this one is problematic on several levels

ah yes the “my hearts beating fast with illya on my legs, she’s so alive I can’t think straight!”

classic Nasu

A illya route wouldn’t be bad per say she’s great it’s just knowing him and his history he would make it very.. weird

14
typellOPwords words words•

you can definitely see all the setup Nasu left in the other routes for the 'actually she's 18 so its okay if they have sex' excuse

if he wrote it today i would hope there wouldn't be any lewd elements

13
Maxrokur•

Takeuchi also did some draws for the maids in lingueri, so it was the route with most mana transfers.

6
ENKlDUboner of my sword•

I’m afraid I can’t trust the mushroom man

flashback to that one bad end where she rapes him

not to mention in the tiger dojo they joke about it and were actually going to add the scenes but scrapped it in the end

:despair:

2†
ShockAndAwen•

She never rapes him though?

11
Withered_KnighterSpirit and Technique, Flawless and Firm•

They don't show it, but it's implied, if I remember correctly.

10
ENKlDUboner of my sword•
6
ChaosMetalDrago•

Who the hell is still spreading this fake rape rumor. It never happened. She's not Chloe.

8
ENKlDUboner of my sword•
2
veilastrum•

Modern Nasu should be much better in regards to these things if TsukiR is any sign of it, where all the rape stuff was removed from it.

2
ShockAndAwen•

I think more than an adult/child thing is just a "maturity" deal, and that she is mostly immature, not in everything, and that's not that weird for humans, what makes it more striking is that her immaturity is in basically everything regarding human interaction, like she may know "adult" things but being mature is not just knowing, all adults know of these things yet not everyone is mature, and well it would be weird if not, the basis for that were her parents and only until she was 8, and Kiritsugu is immature too, and Iri was basicaly raised by him and was very childlike too. Her appearance on top of being a symbol of her stunted emotional growth is also misleading, if she didn't look like that but acted the same it would be a different impression

That takes us to the other thing, homunculus don't have a concept of "age" but where for normal homunculus this comes from being born with the knowledge they need to perform whatever for Illya it comes from being isolated and only teached what she needed to perform her function, so she ends having the kinda contrast Iri had but for different reasons and hers is even more because Iri had this learning at an absurd fast rate thing from being already an "adult" homunculus, but Illya's development is like humans, what she was given was basically how to be a master/mage and aristocrat stuff and the homunculus were done with her not caring about other aspects because why would they? Is not tied to her functions after all

So Illya is Tarzan but homunculus instead of apes

5
typellOPwords words words•

homunculus don't have a concept of "age" but where for normal homunculus this comes from being born with the knowledge they need to perform whatever for Illya it comes from being isolated and only teached what she needed to perform her function

I honestly haven't thought much about how homunculi relate to age generally, but you're definitely right - iri and kiritsugu's relationship is weirder every time i think about it lol. i wonder if he was attracted to her precisely because she didn't know shit about anything - must have been refreshing after spending all his time around mages and professional killers

tarzan is also a good comparison

wrt your other comment I think the different doll bad ends are even trickier to understand. the strange part to me is why you don't even get the choice in one of them.

3
bersalonava•

somewhat similar to arc, even in terms of design.

2
ShockAndAwen•

Goes with the fairy theme and Nasu trademark recycling ideas/designs

4
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
MageOfTheEnd•

I tend to think of Illya as being kind of this 'cute psycho' character, like she can be a cute kid one moment and then the next moment she's having Berserker crush your body with the exception of your head, or placing your consciousness in a doll, or something else equally fucked up.

I do also remember she has this really sympathetic backstory. One image in particular I tend to remember has to do with her >!being thrown out into the cold by the Einzberns and protected by Berserker (?)!<, which is in Heaven's Feel I think.

But mostly because of the Bad Ends associated with her, she just feels really dangerous to me, such that in the Fate route I wanted to foist her off on the church instead of keeping her around.

All this being said, I think this is a pretty good write-up. At the heart of it, she has developmental issues where she was raised exclusively to be a Master and subjected to some pretty traumatising stuff, so she is decidedly abnormal in some ways. Though I wonder what you would have to say about her Bad Ends - is it a lack of understanding, in some sense, that other people are people like her and not just her playthings? Is it an extreme form of childlike self-centredness lacking empathy for others?

2
typellOPwords words words•

Though I wonder what you would have to say about her Bad Ends - is it a lack of understanding, in some sense, that other people are people like her and not just her playthings? Is it an extreme form of childlike self-centredness lacking empathy for others?

This is an interesting question. I totally understand the reservations people have with her. Like, Shirou has a big argument with Saber and Rin over whether to let her stay which I think is an attempt to convince the reader to be sympathetic to her, but since it doesn't really address all the ways in which you can be horribly murdered by her it might not be that persuasive.

So, there's this scene, where Illya doesn't seem to see Saber as human because she's a Servant.

But I'd argue the way Shirou describes it here is actually oversimplistic, because earlier he realises that by 'Servant' Illya doesn't mean a summoned Heroic Spirit, but rather something that belongs to her, stays by her side, and protects her. It's why she asks Shirou to become her Servant, and why she ends up developing such a close relationship with Berserker.

I think her attitude towards Saber isn't specific to Servants - she likely feels that way about most people, as this line somewhat implies.

And there's actually a really simple explanation for this: almost all of the people she interacted with while growing up were Einzbern homunculi! The kind of person that you would be most justified in not considering a person. When you think about it that way there's a self-deprecating element to it, because of course she's aware that she's also a tool designed to complete the Third Magic.

Another thing I will say about her Bad Ends is that they can be a bit tricky to wrap your head around in terms of consistent character motivations - when Shirou jumps in front of Berserker to save Saber, Illya is shocked and leaves, but in the bad end she happily goes ahead and finishes you off.

It seems as though she was surprised by Shirou's willingness to sacrifice himself to protect Saber. So it's kind of a flash of empathy for Illya - realising that Shirou has his own internal life and people he cares about means she can't enjoy torturing him like she planned to.

6
ShockAndAwen•

Ye she sees everyone as tools including herself because everyone around her was just that, whenever someone does something that is unrelated to a "role" it comes as a surprise to her and only then she starts considering you something else, Herc saving her is clear, is what she says, she at first doesn't get why he would help her just because he wants to and not because he is ordered to, Shirou defying his role as a master has the same flavor, of course Saber didn't order him it should be the other way around so he is saving her because he wants to, I guess that plays a part in why she says she doesn't like Sella and Liz but she wants to, because they are nice to her but I think she perceives it is just because is their task to do so not because they want to

In fact the bad ends with doll Shirou have some of that too she wants to force Shirou to stay but is unsatisfied if he doesn't really want to, yet she has no problem enslaving him because is how she thinks it works, everyone just a role

2
Own_Praline_9336•

Damn, that is a lot of writing.

​

Though, I feel like many of these situations can be easily and effectively communicated better through a trope. I doubt Nasu extensively thought Illya's character through and many of the techniques he used in this 'creation' per se probably took inspiration on his own and some tropes.

​

The child like to adult personality trope;

That distant look I suppose or the way she just plays around almost wandering: They are all tropes that can be seen in characters of other genres.

​

Though, I wouldn't say Illya isn't a great character, she is, and honestly: Though I dont write massive essays on why I love Rin and the VN's writing, most of Nasu's characters are great and indepth. Illya takes second place my good sir.

2
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1