Source
r/asoiaf•
jmk4422

[Announcement] Please join us in a discussion about a proposed change to our meme policy.

EDIT: I have updated the "silly content" definition to version 1.5 based on a lot of great feedback. Also I want to remind everybody: please don't downvote somebody just because you disagree with their opinion in this matter. I'm not saying you should upvote them, but downvoting someone because you don't like what they have to say even though they're adding to the conversation is not only against the rediquette, it's against the traditions we share here on the Wall. Thanks!

Fellow Crows:

As many of you are aware we recently began discussions about making a major change to this subreddit's meme/silly-content policy. You can read the thread u/a-liquid-sky started here and my proposed solution here.

Note: No change to our current meme policy, which you can find on the sidebar, has yet been made.

The long and the short of this discussion is simple: recently, r/asoiaf has seen an increasingly large amount of meme and other "silly content" type posts cluttering up our front page. While in the past I have argued that this is a non-issue I no longer feel the same way. At the time of u/a-liquiid-sky's post I was disturbed to find that ~40% of the content of our front page were memes, rage-comics, animated gifs, and other silly content. This was a huge change from the last few times this issue has come up when such content only accounted for ~10-20% of our front page. As our community continues to grow it would appear that, as with other subreddits that break the 15k membership threshold, such content has started to become the norm rather than the exception. However, we mods (and the community, too, if the discussions above are any indication) are still against sky's suggestion that we become a self-post only thread. So what to do?

Note: No change to our current meme policy, which you can find on the sidebar, has yet been made.

After consulting with the community in the aforementioned threads and debating possible solutions with my fellow maesters it has been decided that we will no longer allow memes or other such "silly content" on the Wall. A new subreddit, which continues to grow at a steady clip thanks to our friends over r/gameofthrones (specifically u/kjhatch who has gracefully accepted my invitation to help in this endeavor), has been created specifically for those who enjoy such material. While still a brand new subreddit with lots of kinks to work out I encourage all of you who enjoy funny/silly ASOIAF-related content to have a look at r/asongofmemesandrage. Subscribe if you like it and help it grow by contributing.

r/asomar will be the premier place for such content on reddit. In the near future we will begin removing any such content from r/asoiaf and encourage its submitters to post it there instead. The only question the remains is this: how should we define the term "meme" or "silly content"? This is our proposed definition (ver.1.5):

A meme or silly-content submission shall be considered any post intended for the sole purpose of eliciting laughter while not contributing to or beginning serious and/or interesting discussion about the A Song of Ice and Fire universe. This includes links to advice-animal style memes, rage-comics, animated gifs, parody videos, pun-filled self-post threads, and any other content deemed to be of no intrinsic value to the r/asoiaf community as determined by the maesters. Photos, videos, blog entries, news articles, and any other post that leads to interesting discussion shall still be allowed even if said post involves crazy, tin-foil-hat style speculation. Finally, as comments still fall under the jurisdiction of our spoiler policy, this rule shall only be applied to posts.

(ver.1.0)A meme or silly-content submission shall be considered any submission intended for the sole purpose of eliciting laughter while not contributing to any serious and/or interesting discussion about the A Song of Ice and Fire universe. This includes advice-animal style memes, rage-comics, animated gifs, parody videos, pun-filled self-post threads, and any other content deemed to be of no intrinsic value to the r/asoiaf community as determined by the maesters. Photos, videos, blog entries, news articles, and any other post that leads to interesting discussion shall still be allowed.

Note: No change to our current meme policy, which you can find on the sidebar, has yet been made.

What we want now is your feedback on both the proposed policy but also on the definition of "silly content" written above. What changes would you make? What obvious mistakes have we overlooked? Do you think not going 100% self-post is a bad idea? Is r/asomar just a solution looking for a problem? Have we mods grown mad with power and are thus turning r/asoiaf into a dictatorship of the highest order? Do you fear that this change will turn the Wall into a Stannis-esq puritanical nightmare?

In this thread we shall listen to all your feedback. In case you haven't heard, no change to our current meme policy, which you can find on the sidebar, has yet been made. Before implementing a policy change as major as this one we maesters wanted to first get the feedback of our brothers and sisters here on the Wall.

We look forward to hearing your suggestions, your critical analysis, your objections, your praise, and your lamentations. Specifically, your thoughts on the definition of meme/silly-content above would be greatly appreciated. You'll note that I labeled it ver.1.0 for now. As we debate and discuss the issue I will edit this post and re-word the definition as needed, changing the version-number as appropriate.

Your humble servants,

The Maesters of r/asoiaf

P.S. In case you missed it, a reminder: no change to our current meme policy, which you can find on the sidebar, has yet been made.

Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:10 PM UTC · edited

64115
BrowsOfSteelGrowing Lemons•

I say nip it in the bud.

It’s far better to ban low‐content posts now than it is to wait until the subreddit is overrun, as numerous others have learned the hard way.

110
corduroyblackAfternoon Delight•

I completely agree.

For evidence, I cite r/thewalkingdead. Not 18 months ago, that site was almost entirely self-post. Today, it is meme hell.

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tribrn•

It's got to help us, though, that there's the r/GameofThrones that pulls most of the show-related stuff, which most of the memes seem to be.

I do like minimizing (or eliminating) meme posts though.

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[deleted]•

This is the main reason I rarely go to that sub despite being a big fan of the show and comics, it annoys me too much to downvote-clean the front page every single time I refresh.

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[deleted]•

Fellow r/thewalkingdead refugee here. I don't mind the occasional meme here and there (r/gameofthrones seems to balance it pretty well), but r/thewalkingdead is just a wasteland of shitty memes and "this is how I felt when..." posts.

2
kendo85This is Reagan Country!•

This is the best answer. With the popularity of the show and books growing exponentially in the last year and season 2 being just days away an influx of garbage is coming. I'd bet that this increase in memes and other likes posts is actually the calm before the storm. Nip this in the bud now.

Relevant links can still be posted in the body of a self post, so there is no reason to think that actual valuable content is going to decrease, just the quickmeme links that are meant for karma.

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belrioseSeahorse•

Just to clarify, by "nip it in the bud" you're saying make it self-post only right?

If it is, then my upvote has not been ill-placed.

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BrowsOfSteelGrowing Lemons•

Making the subreddit self‐post‐only might be an effective way to combat the problem, but it isn’t the only way.

Certain other subreddits have managed, via rules and enforcement, to allow links and still keep the cruft out.

I would prefer the latter solution, because there are times when a link is called for (and embedding them in a self‐post is less elegant), but to be honest, if I were a moderator, I would be tempted to go with the former, because enforcing submission quality can be a lot of work.

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belrioseSeahorse•

Yeah, both 'solutions' are inelegant because they require either intense and constant manual control (via mods), or a hard rule.

In the first case there's potential for error or poor judgement on the part of mods, as long as there's a rule that requires interpretation there's the possibility for misinterpretation (or the appearance of it). In the second there's a rule that excludes some material that shouldn't be excluded (like links to gurm's blog, or some such), and the solution is a worse implementation of a tool (linking) intentionally removed.

I prefer trusting a too-harsh rule than trusting mods unnecessarily, but that may just be because I dislike the drama around mod-explosions and that's colouring my perspective. Also, as you point out (kind of), mods work hard for little to no credit, and expecting more out of them seems unreasonable.

But really, I'm for any solution that works.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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bronyraurstompDracarys!•

Ser, this is the most perfect metaphor for this.

13
LiftingTheVeilWilding•

Crack-pot theory threads should absolutely not be disappeared. They are often silly, but end up revealing a lot of uncommon trivia.

I'm afraid the silly content rule leaves room to purge those threads.

Self post only is a good intermediate step to reducing karma whoring and memes. Giving the mods power to curate content should only be a last resort.

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Dovienya•

I hate the crack pot theories, but you're absolutely right about the value they hold. I've learned a lot from people disproving the crackpot theories.

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rabble-rouserMODthe Laughing Mod•

Crack-pot theory threads would not be considered removable under the new policy. We never want to hinder any thread that promotes an interesting discussion of the series. No matter how out there it may be. Plus as Dovienya has stated, a lot can be learned from disproving these crazy theories.

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jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

As my friend rabble-rouser stated, crack-pot theories would not be considered "silly content".

How would you amend the current definition to assuage such fears? I honestly don't see how the current definition could lead to such worries but if you have an idea for how to more narrowly define "silly content" to remove any chance that crack-pot theories could ever be considered in violation of this rule, please let us know.

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grammar_is_optional*Grinds teeth*•

Maybe just stipulate a clause that specifically allows such threads, to avoid confusion. But perhaps the best route is to have self posts only, it avoids ambiguities, and if there is still a problem with memes and crap like that we can always try another solution afterwards...

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jmk4422OPA small man can cast a large shadow.•

Exactly. We can try this solution but not marry ourselves to it; if it turns out to be more trouble than it's worth we can scrap it and try something else. I'd just rather try to avoid having to the self-post only route...

By the way, I did update the definition to version 1.5. Does this address your concerns?

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grammar_is_optional*Grinds teeth*•

Ya, actually as it is now, it seems quite alright, I can't think of anything wrong with it, so I'd be happy with that :)

1
mapguyMaster-of-Arms•

If those disappear, I have nothing :/

1
ColonelFlashmanThe Chequy Lion•

Nip it in the bud. Please Please Please. In 4 days time this sub is going to get spammed to FUCK with memes by people looking for karma by cross posting shit from game of thrones. Just make it self post. PLEASE.

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Dovienya•

I hadn't even thought about the timing issue.

This is not going to be pleasant.

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[deleted]•

What was it like last season?

1
Dovienya•

No idea, I didn't know there was a subreddit for either Game of Thrones or the book series.

1
ObjectiveGopherOne King Whose Name Is STARK•

I agree, self post only. Links to articles and the like can be put inside the post, and it would absolutely murder the karma whoring and memes.

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grammar_is_optional*Grinds teeth*•

Good point, this needs to be sorted quickly...

2
trahsemaj•

I fully support this much needed change to keep this subreddit fresh and intersting.

Every community reaches a tipping point where low-value content (memes) floods the front page. This is largely due not to a majority of the community wanting to see such content, but rather the fact that such content is quickly processed and more commonly upvoted. Downvotes are not common, and are not enough to counterbalance the ease of upvoting low-value content.

Every large subreddit experiences a problem with memes and other forms of low-value content. Every sucessful subreddit has at least some policy in dealing with them (/r/fitness and r/starcraft being the two I am most familiar with). Other large subreddits have successfully used heavy moderation to keep content high-value, most notably r/askscience

TLDR: Memes get to the front page easily, often against the will of the majority. Moderator action is the only way to keep growing subreddits true to their core.

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Dovienya•

I really like the idea of removing memes and silly content from this subreddit. I know that it's easy to ignore or downvote, but I think that having that type of content tends to draw the wrong crowd.

I want the people in this subreddit to be the type to have serious discussions about characters, plots, speculation, theories, etc. I don't want this to be a subreddit where people come to get karma or make jokes.

My experiences on other show subreddits versus this one is that they tend to be filled with people who downvote someone who disagrees with them. I don't want to come here, defend Sansa, and end up with -40 karma. It's not about the karma, of course, but the atmosphere of acceptance I like here.

On a side note, I think this subreddit is more female friendly than others like it because I don't have to look at post after post or comment after comment about how hot women are, or "Look, I found a picture of Daenerys' sideboob!" or whatever.

I'm absolutely fine with self posts only. People can link within the post, right?

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I_Ride_A_KrakenEnter your desired flair text here!•

Yes, please moderators. Self posts only. It will make it easier on the mods so that they don't have to go deleting comics all day.

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trahsemaj•

I do like links to tower of the hand, winter is coming, and new trailers though. I'd rather have posts be screened than limit to blanket self-post only.

This might change in the future, but for now it seems managable.

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CranberryBogMonsterCrow of the Year•

I honestly barely ever notice memes or other similar content on the front page. Whether it's just luck or the mods being vigilant I dunno, but it's never seemed like a problem to me.

Regardless, I'm here for the rich, deep discussion anyway, the crazy crackpot theories, and the sweet, sweet Tyrion-on-Melisandre fanfiction, so I'm sure being more on top of low-level content can only make the subreddit better!

I can't wait to see how the sub reacts once the show starts up again.

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[deleted]•

Self posts are the true steel. Memes are copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

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ben_NDMNWI•

This begs the question: what constitutes iron?

1
skinny_reminderAshara Lemore•

In general I support a policy of no change and think we need to better educate or outline the rules on downvoting. (ie. Downvote the memes and crap vs. the sansa and other theory supporters)

Do we know of any subreddits that have been successful with less rules? I like AskScience but it feels too sterile. A lot of the discussion here is conjecture and relies on creativity. I don't want someone to feel hampered by the rules if their theory isn't bulletproof. No one should be afraid to post here.

Can we wait a bit and see how the r/asongofmemesandrage sub does in siphoning away unwanted content? (now, I'll just sit in the corner here and collect my downvotes jazzercise, tia!)

*edited for jmk4422

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smokey815The Captain of the Guards•

Agreed on the up vote/downvote idea. I like the idea of down votes for irrelevant or purposefully rude comments/posts instead of because you disagree with them.

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Dovienya•

I do, too, but it's just not enforceable. You can't make someone give a crap about why they are downvoting something.

Someone else pointed at r/thewalkingdead as an example of how bad a subreddit can get, and I concur completely.

I've made comments that go something like, "I don't dislike this character. Here is my reasoning." I get downvoted to hell and the only responses I get are "LOL, that character is stupid!" "Are you a fag?!"

r/gameofthrones is somewhere in the middle. I've definitely gotten downvoted for defending Sansa, but at least the responses I get are reasonably well thought out.

I just don't want this subreddit to go down either path.

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smokey815The Captain of the Guards•

I don't like RLJ, and I've told people that. My whole problem is that it's a theory with some good evidence, but people talk about it like its the gospel. No one says, "If RLJ is true then that means blank" Its always because RLJ is true, not if

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jmk4422OPA small man can cast a large shadow.•

I agree about RLJ. It's similar to how, before ADWD was published, so many people believed that a certain character would meet another certain character, they stopped speculating on whether or not it would actually happen. I remember someone saying something like, "Why does everyone think they're going to meet?" and that comment getting a ton of "Lol because it is known!" type replies.

Guess what? It wasn't known. RJL isn't known either.

As for myself, I love a good theory or interesting speculation. I'll upvote anything that makes me think even if I disagree with the premise.

3
skinny_reminderAshara Lemore•

I just don't like the idea of censorship but if you all think this is the way to go then so be it. I get more irritated by the same questions appearing over and over than a funny meme. (an unfunny meme brings out the cthulu in me)

1
Dovienya•

Recurring questions bother me somewhat, but it is hard to use the search function to find all relevant posts because of the deliberately vague titles we choose.

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jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

Dammit, man! That was such a great post and I was just about to upvote it but I swore I'd always downvote anyone who says anything like "I'm ready for the downvotes".

...

You know what? Let's meet halfway. I won't downvote you but I won't upvote you. Fair enough?

As to your point about some reddits adding too many rules, I agree with you 100%. Some somereddits go overboard on trying to control exactly the type of content that gets submitted to them. r/theoryofreddit is a great example of a subreddit I used to love until it was recently taken over by a new group of moderators who seem determined to control exactly what can and cannot be said there.

That is certainly a legitimate worry for us, too. That's why we're having this conversation. For example, I had no idea people would fear that we would start removing things such as "crack-pot theories" or all photographs/links/etc. That's a valid concern and we will consider it moving forward. Perhaps the definition of "silly content" needs to be completely overhauled.

As of right now no policy changes have been made. When it is made it will be with some kind of clause such as: one week from the date of this post the following rule shall apply to this subreddit. That should give time for people to prepare for the change. We're not even there yet, though, so let's keep the discussion going for now.

1
skinny_reminderAshara Lemore•

I just edited my comment for you. the only reason I mentioned the downvotes was because my comment was about educating people on downvoting. that usually brings out the best in people.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

My thoughts exactly. My feeling is that we should phase-in the new policy so that the change isn't a drastic one. After we do implement the change (in, say, a week) we should see how the community accepts it. If, after a another week or two of enforcing said policy it becomes clear the community doesn't like the change, we revert to the old policy and let the cards fall as they may.

I've been subscribed to far too many subreddits in the past that just suddenly said, "This is the new rule, deal with it" to have any desire to do the same thing here.

I might be a mod but my blood runs black, same as yours. This is our subreddit. Not mine.

13
[deleted]•

A question of clarification. Do the pun threads include the whole, "Hodor" business that people like to comment on and then respond to? This includes, "It is known" and "secret targaryen" type comments

Hodor?

      Hodor

               Hodor

Type threads we get on here from time to time. Erm, what I'm asking is, will these comments be deleted with extreme prejudice under the new policy?

And yes I like the new proposed changes.

10
I_Ride_A_KrakenEnter your desired flair text here!•

I say when it comes to the comments, let the users decide. We want to avoid the memes and "Look what my grandma made me!" type of posts.

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jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

...I actually like the "look what my grandma made me!" type posts. Sometimes a creation like that does lead to interesting discussion.

"Whoa, your grandma reads the books?!"

"Holy gods! Is that the battle of the Trident!? Did Robert really use a warhammer that big or is that just your grandma's interpretation?"

"Can I please see pics of your GILF?"

Like that.

4
I_Ride_A_KrakenEnter your desired flair text here!•

While they are nice every once in a while, once people notice that they give decent karma, we will have an attack on the Wall the likes of which will be spoken of for ages.

Also, GILFS...

2
jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

I was thinking of threads that are solely dedicated to puns and the like. We don't see much of them but there have been a few and we don't see why they should be spared just because they're self-posts. Anything that is solely meant to elicit laughter and has no value for interesting debate/discussion/etc. would fall under this policy. The occasional commenter saying, "Hodor?" in response to a link/post/comment would not be considered a violation of this rule.

Hm. More food for thought. Perhaps the definition should make it clear that we're talking about posts only, not comments? After all, the spoiler policy already covers any potential problems with comments. This is a great point. Thanks, leonarodsan.

3
skinny_reminderAshara Lemore•

it is known

(I actually don't know but would like to know.)

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gsabramIt's a trap!•

You know nothing, skinny_reminder!

1
JilaXSword Of The Early Afternoon•

The issue with this is that it might make the reddit feel.... Sterile? We have to have room for laughs along everything else, or this place will solely be tinfoil-central. Which ofcourse, has it's good and its bad sides. Banning ragecomics is fine, but all memes? Feels a tad too harsh. Encourage downvoting of the generic nonesense ones, and upvoting of those that are actually entertaining. (Which one must admit some are.)

9
EauxGet Brack!•

Memes and images aren't the only form of humor. Some of the theorycrafting for ASOIAF has a ton of humor embedded into it: Merlings, anyone?

You don't need to "DAE THINK THAT" or "MFW" to create humor. Use some creativity.

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JilaXSword Of The Early Afternoon•

I very much so agree. Hopefully, the creation of A Song Of Memes And Rage will take away the majority along with gameofthrones. So honestly, I doubt a ban would even be nescesarry at this point.

1
jordantc•

Let's do it. We've already got r/gameofthrones flooded with the stuff if we're looking for it.

7
dandello•

meme's are for r/gameofthrones.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Ham117More Sam than Slayer.•

Yea why not split the sub reddits

The show memes and IRL stuff for GOT

Book related discussions and Theories for ASOIAF.

I don't know about anyone else but i come here for discussions about the books.

0
jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

By tradition we tend to deal more with the books than with the show and r/gameofthrones tends to deal more with the show than the books. But while we have a great working relationship with the fine folk who run r/gameofthrones, it's still their subreddit, not ours. I have no right to tell u/kjhatch "Hey man, from now you're about memes and the show only, got it?" anymore than he has a right to tell us, "Hey guys, from now on you're only about the books so please make your subreddit self-post only. Leave all links and the rest of ASOIAF to us.".

The good news? u/kjhatch is co-moderating r/asomar with me. This will only tighten our relationship. Also, plans are in the works for our two subreddits to possibly work even more closely together in the future.

Baby steps, though. Change takes time.

Now, if anyone wants to offer us mods of r/asoiaf and the mods at r/got sizable salaries to moderate full time we can perhaps speed things up...

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
gsabramIt's a trap!•

If someone began discussing "The Hunger Games" or "Harry Potter" on in this community, we would likely downvote and redirect the OP to a more appropriate forum.

This might be censorship, except now there is an appropriate forum for memes and rage. I personally enjoy that sort of thing from time to time, so I joined. If you enjoy that sort of thing, join as well!

If you haven't joined and you're complaining, I don't understand you. If you have joined and you're complaining, you probably just want all the karma (insert image of "Do All the Things Meme Guy" here)

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jmk4422OPMODA small man can cast a large shadow.•

I'm the same as you, gsabram. I honestly enjoy a good rage comic or meme from time to time. The problem is that r/asoiaf was beginning to be known for them; as I stated in the above text, they were becoming the rule, not the exception. I don't go to r/askscience when I need to be cheered up, I go to r/aww. Likewise, I don't go to r/asoiaf when I want to see memes/rage comics; I go to r/adviceanimals, etc.

We can still be funny and creative here. We just want all posts to encourage interesting discussion (which, yes, includes funny comments). The "throwaway silly-content" stuff doesn't encourage any discussion and, indeed, stifles it when it begins to dominate the front page.

5
[deleted]•

I was under the impression that the memes and rage already were allowed in the main GOT reddit... I'm not certain why they even need a seperate sub. All it does is encourage the "spread stupid crap as fast as possible for useless high score" mentality.

I don't like to discourage people so I usually try to redirect rather than downvote, but I do see your point.

1
ben_NDMNWI•

I'm not sure that they should be outright banned.

Specifically, where do sporcle quizzes fall under this proposed policy?

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jmk4422OPA small man can cast a large shadow.•

sporcle quizzes

You're just making things up or trying to bait me now, aren't you?

But seriously: I don't believe quizzes would fall under the definition of "silly content" unless, of course, they're just... silly.

3
ben_NDMNWI•

No, I'm not trying to bait you. This was a serious question, as I am in the process of writing one and wondering how to promote it.

But why are you so defensive about the question?

2
jmk4422OPA small man can cast a large shadow.•

I'm not defensive! Honestly, I'm not. I just thought the title was funny.

But seriously, if it's a good quiz? That would not fall under the category of silly content. I'm not saying you'll get a ton of upvotes (the quality of your quiz shall determine that) but were this policy in place your quiz would not be removed.

Unless, of course, the quiz is silly. For example: every correct answer is "Hodor!". But a serious or interesting quiz is the exact reason why I would not want to go self-post only: such links can be valuable and I would hate to see them disappear.

5
ben_NDMNWI•

Ok, that makes sense. Hodor doesn't play a role in this particular quiz.

1
dubyadubya•

Where are these horribly intrustive memes and silly posts? I can hardly recall seeing them in this Subreddit, in fact I thought they were already banned. This discussion is silly. They can of course be annoying, but only when they are a problem, and this is one of the few subreddits I visit where they are not a problem in the slightest.

Downvote and move on, they are hardly pervasive enough to be called "annoying."

5
jmk4422OPA small man can cast a large shadow.•

As stated in my post, as of the time of sky's thread they took up ~40% of the frontpage. In the past that number was much smaller. Right now they're practically at 0% but I believe that's only because of the recent discussions regarding them. Without a new rule, in four or five weeks we'll be right back to the 40% mark or even worse, I fear.

Downvotes are great and this community does a fantastic job of policing itself. However, as others have mentioned, we should probably make it official that such content is not allowed. Otherwise we run the risk of becoming overrun with them again.

2
ckingdomBest ASOIAF Tournament Story•

No memes. No ragecomics. And for the love of the Seven, no more "My brother is reading the books and he just said how much he loves (character that dies horribly)!!! LOL!!!!" posts.

5
nitrousconsumedWinterfell's Dragon•

These, too, should also go.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

5
Pantal00ns•

I really enjoy this subreddit and see no problem with the status quo, myself.

Maybe I just skip over the memes, but I don't even really see them. Those that I do see are usually amusing.

4