Source
r/TheSilphRoad•
MDuff57

Double Iron Bash Melmetal needed for Master League balance

Discussion

This season, the zacian-dialga core is rampant. While zacian was a welcome rebalance to the old & stale ML meta, it has potentially tipped the scales a little too far in its own favor. It has scared away many of the melmetal (and even excadrill), and ironically left dialga as dominant as ever (when not facing a zacian itself).

As it stands, zacian has very few true & reliable checks. The checks for one moveset may be insufficient vs the other (think Gira, Ho-Oh), and the most consistent check (metagross) struggles against a meta filled with the aforementioned giratina and Ho-Oh, as well as the pesky kyogre. Metagross also has a somewhat unreliable matchup against dialga, requiring basically full HP and often a bait to land a KO. As it stands, none of the meta can reliably core-break zacian/dialga.

That’s where melmetal with double iron bash comes in! If melmetal were to receive a relatively cheap, efficient, steel type move in the form of its signature attack it could act as a balancing force in the meta. It wouldn’t annihilate the core completely, as it still takes a boat load from CC and must debuff itself to beat dialga, but it would prove a pesky adversary for the DZ combo and force some team restructuring.

With double iron bash, melmetal would see improvements against: -Zacian -Togekiss -Giratina -Landorus -Mewtwo

It would see a decline vs: -Ho-Oh (drastically) -Kyogre -Yveltal -Lugia -Zekrom

Note: An influx in melmetal also encourages the return of fighters, which dialga hates and zacian loves, so there is still a balance at play that won’t force zacian out.

I propose double iron bash be either 70 damage for 40 energy or 75 damage for 45 energy. Making the move too strong could make melmetal too dominant in neutral matchups and impact the meta negatively.

I believe now is the time to give the steel blob his signature move and let the meta realign. Please let me know your thoughts below :)

Edit: I play and am referring to ML classic, but the same logic (probably?) applies to level 50 ML as well!

Posted Jan 10, 2022, 1:25 AM UTC · edited

306108
JRE47PvP Investigative Journalist•

I do wonder when/if Niantic is going to have a Meltan event that doesn't revolve around the Mystery Box. It's been long enough that that itch has likely been scratched even enough for Niantic. A Meltan event with an exclusive move unlock would probably do very well, and of course Double Iron Bash would be very hype. You're not the first to mention it, but the timing does seem to me to be right for it now. Here's hoping!

144
PecanAndy•

People often throw around TPC as an excuse for why Niantic doesn’t do some things that seem obvious. Distributing Meltan through the Mystery Box does feels like something that TPC benefits from though. Pokemon Go players are forced to interact with main series games or services if they want to use the Mystery Box.

46
JRE47PvP Investigative Journalist•

Yes, but I imagine even TPC has gotten what they wanted by now. Don't know a ton of folks that still play Let's Go anymore. Maybe it's not up to Niantic, but can't imagine an event would hurt them or The Pokémon Company by this point....

24
dukeofflavorOregon•

Pokemon Home has been the main destination ever since connectivity was added. You can find mountains of legendaries at levels that are only possible in Go on the GTS.

38
Foggy_Night221C•

Hard to believe that game is almost five years old already.

3
Primus81Kiwi Beta Tester•

Nah, it’s three years old

6
presumingpete•

Yeah. But it's not just for let's go. You get the mystery box for transferring to Pokemon home, which is used for all mainline Pokemon games.

1
dan2872•

Now that you mention it, I do wonder what the future of the Mystery Box is - it's not called the Meltan Box after all, it could totally be decoupled from Meltan and be repurposed. I've only opened one Mystery Box since the last shiny Meltan event, and that was when I finally got Snowy in-game. There's just no reason once you've got a good, maxed Melmetal.

18
KinkyHuggingJerk•

Opening the box counts as 'using an incense' for many different tasks.

13
Hoekage208_•

I have 3 maxed perfects still opening it every time it’s available

-2†
d1ckpunch68•

true. obv he's great in ML but he's also a pretty good gym defender and the XL candy rate is still insane, i have over 3k xl candy. it's worth using the box whenever it's up imo. especially since he's mythical and can't be traded for good IVs.

i personally just use a gotcha though. sitting around for an hour waiting for him to spawn is exhausting. just pop the box, turn on gotcha, come back to ~35 meltan and check for IVs.

1
milo4206•

especially since he's mythical and can't be traded for good IVs.

Meltan is the one exception. You can trade them.

7
MDuff57OP•

Thanks for the reply! I agree that melmetal could use a more inspired event soon. I love your write-ups btw, they inspired me to make this post!

7
GroovinTootin•

Give Niantic a mega melmetal or another exclusive and give Meltan to the main series

2
anavypaisleyjacket•

No. Melmetal is already too op with its move. They should buff some other legendaries to make them eligible for pvp instead of making one of the strongest meta mons to be even stronger

38
nadiwerebBudapest•

It's not OP, but very strong. It has an amazing defensive typing and awesome coverage - especially in ML where Dragons are very common.
I agree that making it outright OP would be an issue.

19
eeeeeeeeee9601•

this is why I main with steel types in ML

1
Usual-Ad-4570•

It would not become stronger, because it has to get rid of another charge move - probably Rock Slide.

This would take away a lot of coverage against Ho-Oh, Lugia, Dragonite, Kyogre and Palkia.

17
Hiker-Redbeard•

But you also put it into a state similar to Zacian where its moveset unpredictability strengthens it as an option too.

3
Raja479•

Melmetal surely isn't op, just easy to attain. Stake for sure though, but probably not oppressive with an upgrade.

I personally hope double iron bash is closer to a side grade. Maybe an ice shard clone.

8
TonyPowtana•

Sims don’t convey everything accurately … but on pvpoke, melmetal is ranked #1 in open master league and virtually tied for the #1 spot in classic master league.

Melmetal is already extremely strong. I wouldn’t personally call it “OP” but it probably has just as good a case of being “OP” as any other mon.

18
SeattleResidentUSA - Pacific•

pvpoke isn't the be all end all. Groudon is ranked #1 in classic but isn't common because it gets walled too much. Melmetal can also be walled by Giratina which is just as popular if not more popular than Melmetal. Zacian is ranked 17th in classic even though it's easily the strongest mon in the entire MLC meta and is basically a staple in every top meta team and I would gander 80% or more of players that hit legend during this rotation had a Zacian on their team judging by twitter posts and watching Twitch streams of top end players.

15
TonyPowtana•

Are you disagreeing with anything I’m saying? I don’t think melmetal is the best Mon in master league. I’m just saying it’s already very powerful.

I agree Zacian is probably the best Mon in master league.

I’d just rather see other mons introduced / buffed for the master league meta to help counter Zacian instead of buffing melmetal, which is already very good.

1
Xsemyde•

It’s never going to be a fast move so it can’t be an ice shard clone...

-1
kckroets•

It’s important to note that melmetal STILL loses to zacian after landing a Flash Cannon

37
komarinthMystic L49•

The result might then become another double steel ABB team dominating the meta.

While I am in favour of a meta rotation (hard to come by in this game setting), we should probably stop obsessing with a dominant meta being a strictly bad thing. It is the natural fix-point of most competitive games. And (un)fixing it is rather done by introducing more counters than buffing existing staple picks.

The ideal scenario is probably a strong meta where the anti meta is just as popular, so that there exists more than a slight viability in picking the anti anti meta (which is usually torn to pieces by the meta).

EDIT: de-auto-correct and grammar.

24
gullyterrierLvL 40 :hamster:•

No Thank Already see too much melmetal already. Would lead to even more stale teams.

20
desperaste•

Yep agreed with that other poster, I already see Melmetal on most teams anyway as a budget option for new players. The last thing I want is for it to become stronger. Spammy status impairing moves like wild charge and brave bird need a rexamine.

15
SeattleResidentUSA - Pacific•

Well pairing nukes with fast charging moves is a major issue. I still don't know why they thought giving snarl to Zacian was the right play there.

5
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
TerkYerJerb:southamerica: South America•

i want the signature move to be a fast one, so melmetal doesnt need flash cannon

13
pokemon_raid_friends•

This is much needed. I hope they don’t actually debuff zacian’s moves, but rather create counters for it.

12
ROFLcoptr501•

The biggest counter for zacian is already on the horizon. Eternatus’s moveset is already in the game’s code, and its typing resists 2/3 of zacian’s potential charge moves.

Eternatus has poison jab/dragon tail as fast moves Flamethrower, cross poison, dragon pulse as charge moves. It would struggle against dialga but it’ll be the first poison type that actually has the stats to compete in master league

18
Usual-Ad-4570•

Soo...we have a counter in 2, maybe 3 years ?

19
ROFLcoptr501•

You never know, but this isn’t the only thing that will counter zacian. Nihilego (rock poison ultra beast), and solgaleo (steel psychic) have potential as well depending on moveset

7
Usual-Ad-4570•

I guess it is all hypothetical. I mean Xerneas got Tackle. So we don't really know if a potential meta relevant Mon actually gets useful moves.

7
333-blueMystic level 41•

Jirachi?

3
TimbofurrMystic Bois•

Eternatus definitely has me hyped for its eventual release

1
ROFLcoptr501•

Same here. If you look on Gamepress, it already shows Eternatus’s moveset and max CP which is over 5000 at lv 50. Currently only slaking surpasses 5000 if I’m not mistaken, so I’m guessing they will nerf Eternatus like they nerfed Mewtwo and Rayquaza

1
orhan94•

There is no specific nerf of Mewtwo and Rayquaza is there? It's all mons that pass 4000cp at lvl 40 with their normal stats, and isn't species-specific.

6
MDuff57OP•

Can’t wait for eternatus; going to be so fun to have a poison running around ML. You’re right that it will help with the zacian infestation in ML right now… gonna be cool!

1
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
cgibsong002•

Maybe it's just the teams I've been running, but I haven't really felt Zacian to be OP. Certainly always a tough matchup because you never know what to expect, but most things can hit back against it. Also self debuff moves are very tricky to play so you need to be good to use it.

I don't see there being anything wrong with something being really good and at the top of the meta. Somehow Kyogre has been there since season 1 and no one complains. I think it's Zacian's unpredictability that frustrates people the most.

1
kagetaicho8•

I don’t think buffing melmetal would be a good idea man. He’s already too strong in the meta.

All this would do is make a zacian/melmetal meta, then you’re back to square 1

12
MDuff57OP•

Finding the balance between breaking meta and creating meta is tricky, you’re absolutely right. Melmetal tends to be a little easier to punish than dialga as it can’t two-shield fast-move its way through many of its “counters” like dialga can, so I think a zacian-melmetal meta would be a little more forgiving? Either way, it’s a hard balance to strike.

I would love if another mon could break apart the core that wasn’t already pretty good, but I can’t think of any great candidates… potentially solgaleo? It’s fun to think about.

Thanks for your reply!

-3
NuravIRVroomVroompow•

Keldeo with Poison Jab, Aqua Jet and Close Combat can literally farm down Zacian in the 2s and double CC the Dialga. It can generally also win the 1s, and probably gets better if it gets Sacred or Secret Sword. 3698 cp Hundo. Doesn't get one shot by PR or WC thankfully and Snarl does pitiful damage.

10
MDuff57OP•

Dang that would be awesome! Keldeo could be a really cool shakeup, didn’t even think of that. Hopefully it releases soon. Thanks for bringing that up

4
[deleted]•

[deleted]

7
Deltaravager•

I'd also like to see Metal Claw -> Shadow Claw (3dpt, 4ept)

Personally, I think Meteor Mash could use a 10 damage nerf in both formats (but keep the chance for attack buff) and then give Meteor Mash to Lucario.

Meteor Mash is so good that it makes Metagross good regardless. If we slightly nerfed Meteor Mash but buffed other steel moves (Flash Cannon -> Shadow Ball (100damage for 55 energy) then we'd see more variety

0
Sledge1989•

The problem with zacian is it has both play rough and wild charge to pick from along with close combat. If they dropped wild charge it would be much more manageable, they you’d know you can use ho-oh, kyogre, etc safely against it. The unpredictability is it’s biggest strength imo

5
Xegeth•

They even started running PR + WC... Schrödingers Zacian always has the right move.

1
Deltaravager•

Strongly agree but here are my thoughts:

Make Double Iron Bash a damage-focused fast move AND buff Flash Cannon to be a Shadow Ball clone.

The results: non-Elite Metagross becomes viable, steel gets an actual good move with widespread distribution. STAB 100 power Flash Cannon does the same damage as non-STAB super effective Rock Slide so Melmetal can still run flying coverage. Melmetal would also have multiple viable movements instead of just one but neither movement would be more dominant. Hydreigon gets a second charge move. Gunfisk won't give up Rock Slide/Earthquake while Bastiodon needs Flamethrower/Stone Edge for coverage.

The only downside is that Registeel gets a buff but this is easily mitigated by the fact that Melmetal is buffed

4
Summerclaw•

Flash cannon being a shadow ball close will really improve skarmory, Magnezone and will even give something new to empoleon

9
TheJuupy•

They already nerfed Flash cannon because of Registeel

1
Zealousideal_Stage87•

Giratina O is a great counter for it.

3†
Crabominibble2•

Moveslot syndrome: it loses to Play Rough but completely crushes CC + WC. Also, Dialga eats Gira-O for thanksgiving

19
Jason2890•

Giratina-O wins every even shielding scenario vs Zacian no matter what moveset it’s running. This applies to both level 40 Master League and level 50 Master League. Obviously it’s more favorable to see CC+WC, but you still win vs PR since Giratina-O is bulky enough to survive a Play Rough + Snarl damage and kill Zacian.

1
Zealousideal_Stage87•

It wins the 0 shields the 1 shield and the 2, and I have honestly never fought one that didn't run play rough.

-2†
OKJMaster44•

I stopped running PR on my Zacian personally when I realized that landing it doesn’t actually secure the matchup since Snarl is out damaged by Shadow Claw and decided it was better to have the rest of the team beat Gira.

That said even though Gira can usually win a straight fight, it’s telling that it has to face the prospect of losing over 70% of its health for being to confident in walling the Zacian. Not the kind of reliable response the meta could use.

4
super_dragon•

I'm perfectly fine with my zacian lead losing to a gira o lead since the gira o is weak enough to be in farming range of my second poke.

0
mEatwaD390•

Use gira (either Altered or Origin) on lead and watch a Zacian lead swap out so fast. It's such a dominant matchup and I don't think I've lost one of those.

1
SeattleResidentUSA - Pacific•

You're talking about open master league. It definitely doesn't win those shielding scenarios in MLC which is what 99% of players are in.

0
Jason2890•

Giratina-O vs Zacian? Yeah it does, in both MLC and open master league. Giratina-O beats a Zacian running PR in all even shielding scenarios. Giratina-O survives a Play Rough and the Snarl damage enough to land a single Shadow Ball and farm down (or throw a SB plus OW in the 0s).

1
MDuff57OP•

That matchup isn’t nearly as dominant when zacian runs play rough/CC though, which is why I was saying zacian’s counters mostly rely on it having the “wrong” moveset. Situationally though, yes, gira can be a fantastic counter. Gira also gets beat down by dialga, though, which is where melmetal can find its niche. Thanks for the reply!

5
Zealousideal_Stage87•

I disagree it wins all 3 even shield senarios at lvl 50.

-9
MDuff57OP•

My apologies, I should have specified that I play master league classic. I often forget that level 50 ML is just called “master league” now. While giratina does still win at level 40, it wins with 1 HP at level 40 and loses the 2 shield. Also, it doesn’t core-break zacian and dialga which is the overall impetus for this post.

Again, that’s my fault for not specifying ML classic!

8
SeattleResidentUSA - Pacific•

Open ML doesn't even exist anyways. Who in their right mind would want to play against a bunch of wallet warriors that sometimes spend hundreds of IRL money to build a single mon? There was a poll a while back on one of the larger pvp twitter and less than 1% of users said they play open ML.

Even more funny if you watch Twitch streams from top battlers, open ML is always looked at as a meme and is laughed at. You could remove open ML completely and you probably wouldn't even know it was gone because there isn't even enough players in the cup to make any sort of noise anywhere on the net.

0†
dabomerestLv 50-USA 🔥•

Giratina 0 barely wins. Kyogre is good but wild charge is bad. Dialga is good but close combat.

Only real good counter is metagross

4
Gjones18Level 49 - Team Instinct (Zapdos best birb)•

Landorus-Therian is a decent answer to Zacian, about as consistent as Giratina-Origin (beats WC/CC variants , still wins vs PR) and comes with the bonus of also thrashing Dialga, as well as Ho-Oh. It's a strong corebreaker in the meta right now, got me to legend on a 10-0 streak

8
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
danielmint•

Would love an opportunity to catch Gira-O. Been playing for over a year and haven’t had a chance yet!!

2
mooistcow•

And now it's largely, 'run giratina or lose.' But everyone's doing that, so it evolves into 'run giratina and a giratina counter or lose' (just like how it was well over a year ago), and then things start getting real stale real fast :/

2
diver_climber•

One reason why I haven't evolved my hundo meltan (just in case NN introduce Double Iron Bash to PoGo)

3†
lIIustration•

Just elite tm it

7
nolkel:south: L50•

Elite TMs are too uncommon (and expensive) for that to just work as a solution for everything that will eventually get a signature move.

-2†
TonyPowtana•

If you run a Meltan box regularly, you’ll probably catch another hundo before Niantic decides arguably the best Pokémon in master league needs a buff.

4
Axume4🦅🔥•

I think it’s the right time for it. People don’t want to see a Melmetal buff but honestly, it’ll probably be more of a side-grade unless it’s really good. Rock slide is too hard to give up with all the flyers and Ho-oh would destroy.

Giving up Superpower could lose the Dialga matchup but not necessarily. Simming Doom Desire brings that matchup really close and favors Melmetal in some scenarios. A 75/45 or cheaper move and Melemetal may not need to run Superpower at all.

3
rb6k•

Scares away the exidrill? I can’t get beyond ACE because I don’t have one. I lack a viable Zacian, Melmetal and Exidrill at the moment and got to ACE with Palkia, Dialga, Groudon but I don’t know what to do now tbh. I have Giratina, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Metagross, Togekiss, Mamoswine, Sylveon and a few other options but research online suggests I’m out of luck unless I get a mole boy or find 200 candy for my 15/15/14 Zacian.

3
MDuff57OP•

Oof yeah that’s tough— You do bring up a good point though (that some others have as well); the meta shifts a lot depending on where you are on the ladder— I’m currently in the 2800s making my legend push and see an excadrill 1-2 out of 10 battles maybe? I don’t see much melmetal currently either, but many others are replying saying that it’s ubiquitous. I guess that’s the tricky thing about meta analysis. I tried to theory craft melmetal’s signature move as a little less powerful than other signature moves to prevent it from being too dominant, but I suppose it could make it a nightmare in the lower ladder for people w/o Ho Oh, Groudon, Kyogre, etc… Much to think about, lol.

Thanks for replying, and I’m jealous of those zacian IVs!

2
rb6k•

Meta at each level is fascinating. Like I think judging by this it must mean Excadril perhaps gets beyond ACE but not much further. Where’s my team caps out at ACE and I just can’t get through the ceiling. Where you are you’re hitting a new ceiling. Presumably there are people who had X Y and Z and are able to cruise through the meta of each level. I’d like to think a better player wouldn’t have that much more success with my team than I do but I do need to work on my decisions.

4
LastDamnation42•

I don’t think zacian is as big an issue as the post implies, but I think the simplest solution is to slightly reduce snarl energy gain (13->12). The increased time to reach second and subsequent moves would slightly weaken it but it would still be very much in the core meta.

A slight snarl nerf could also be beneficial to other leagues - umbreon and mandibuzz will become less spammy and hence less oppressive in neutral matchups.

The only mon that would really suffer from a snarl nerf is yveltal which would likely need to be addressed via its movepool for it to remain relevant.

2†
djwfLvl 1 collector•

Have run melmetal with SP and FC this season, which massively helped me - although if it was expected (and people shielded) it may be less effective, but it has worked well and left me on the cusp of expert....

2
bigpat412•

Time to bring out the real sword Pokemon, Aegislash, steel/ghost is straight up nasty. However I don't see us getting it for a while because I'm unsure how they can implement it's ability stance change, which makes it swap between a defensive and offensive Pokemon.

2