Source
r/Pathfinder_RPG•
Random_Somebody

Please Help Sanity Check A Claim--Party Using Vancian Magic Should Logically Be Beaten By Most Smart Creatures

1E Player

Per Title-Talked with someone who claimed because most Vancian buffs/spells tend to only last Rounds to 10 Minutes Per Level, any creature with:

  • An int "above average human" so 12 or above
  • Better mobility options than PCs have (good flight, at-will teleport a ton of outsiders get, etc)
  • Unlimited use offensive thing with good range(At Will offensive SLA, breath weapon, those good ranged thorn attacks tons of plants get, etc)

Should be able to effortlessly beat a PC party that has relies on Vancian magic (Wizard, Oracle, etc). The idea is that since this creature has an above-average INT score, they'd have the wits to use their mobility to trivially "stall out" Vancian casters and then pick off the party. Any time the party does succeed vs such a creature (before very high levels), it just means the DM was unfairly dumbing them down, and not properly using their abilities.

Me: Wouldn't this that PCs shouldn't even bother fighting anything that isn't like Int 3 or below or literally only has melee since their wins would always be unearned due to the DM 'playing the monster as an idiot'?--And you think victory is only plausible when the PCs are high enough level start doing things like mass spamming simulacrum armies

Their Response: Unfortunately with vancian casting that happens to be true, and that's why it sucks.

Obviously, I don't agree. I do concede that in the context of a whole day, Vancian spell-slots doesn't last that long, appreciate options that are longer lasting/all day (Hi there Spheres), and that a lot of "immortal" creatures such as dragons, outsiders, fey, etc, perhaps should be willing to just bug out in a way PCs might not be able to really follow. But PCs do have options, ways to force encounters, things sticking around to fight doesn't necessarily mean the DM's running them like idiots, etc.

Or do you think the above checks out? But the consensus is that the general meta-construction of the "3 Fight/15 Minute Adventuring Day" means you have to implicitly dumb down any CR 5 and above outsider, dragons, etc since otherwise they'd logically exploit above advantages to easily beat any PC before really high levels?

For instance, Per them a Level 5-6 party should never be able to beat a CR 7 Succubus, which is maybe a difficult or challenging, but not impossible encounter per CR (yes I know CR borked, but). Using the criteria above, she's got the INT to use some of her allotted treasure to get a good longbow and maybe some healing items (potions, wand, items with long term Fast healing, etc). The Succubus could teleport in at range, get an invisible surprise attack in, see the party start using spells + other limited resources, approaching for melee, etc and then immediately ethereal jaunt or teleport out to wait out any buffs (Like the fly spell, PfE, etc), or she maybe stays a round or two to have party use ranged spells/attacks then bug out to where party can't reach to heal up, and in general teleport/jaunt in and out all day to attrition down the party.

I'd think in the above the Level 5-6 very much has a chance without unfairly dumbing down the Succubus. Sure the party can't follow her to continue fighting during infinite teleports/ethereal jaunts, but I'd think even if the party ran out of spells/buffs timers after say instance 5 of this, stuff like readied actions, high percep to react during surprise round, the likelihood some long-range to medium range spell will land and affect things before slots run out, etc would mean they could still beat the Succubus even if it's using At-Will Teleports + Ethereal Jaunts "optimally." Go ahead and apply this a Young or Young Adult dragon flying into to snipe with breath weapon before flying away faster than Lv 8-10 PCs could reasonably keep up with over the course of a day, a Blood Hag vs similar, so on and so forth.

Edit: To Clarify, I definitely don't agree with the premise and argued against it. "Sanity Check" was to see if I was wrong due to missing something obvious.

Posted Mar 26, 2022, 2:13 AM UTC · edited

141
Eternal__Moonshine•

You're burning way too much thought examining one part of the premise (whether a monster would behave this way) and ignoring a far more obviously flawed part, the assumption that casters are buff reliant. Not just buff reliant, but so buff reliant that any monster would know that.

I mean, this feels like a really obvious point to have to make, but a blaster doesn't care if you leave and come back when his buffs are down, he's strong because he can blow your ass up with multiple maximized spells per round. A controller doesn't care if you leave and come back, he's strong because he has optimized spell DCs and dozens of different spells that can end the fight in one round on a failed save.

This logic only works if the party is specifically reliant on stacking up buffs, and the enemy somehow knows that fact.

29
Photomancer•

I played in a party with a wizard that used a weapon and appeared to be armored in chain. He could have been an able swordsman to any onlooker.

For that matter, an observer has no reason to differentiate almost any type of caster. Is that a wizard or a sorcerer? A cleric or a paladin? Or maybe just a mundane knight with a holy symbol. Druids might look like rangers, hell, so might clerics of nature deities. This fellow here, is he a wizard/fighter -- or maybe just a bard?

Pretty much anything besides a spell book hanging from your belt ... and then if we're playing the world's stupidest match of Pathfinder Game Theory, that is all the more reason for sorcerors to wear fake spell books.

12
Arturius1Casters only•

With a spell book it might as well be a magus or living Grimoire inquisitor.

10
Random_SomebodyOP•

Oh, I do remember this was one of the reasons for the Int "clause" and generally it was specifically for long lived or immortal things like outsiders and dragons. The claim was such a smart and long lived creature would obviously have memorized all common spells+their lengths, "classes", etc and that ignorance of any of the above for a creature with an Int 'above human average of 10' + immortality (or really long lives) was inherently "dumbing down" said creatures.

Honestly at that point my response was "That's just inherently silly, dunno how to explain it." And "okay if you are right and I'm underestimating what an impact immortality and long lives have on someone's knowledge base, I guess any games I run will have the 'idiot bat' auto applied since lol no?"

3
CN_MinusInvisible•

The claim was such a smart and long lived creature would obviously have memorized all common spells+their lengths, "classes"

Classes aren't the only existing casters in the world, since anyone can homebrew another. The amount of time and effort every being would have to put into to memorizing every single spell they can and every single framework from which it can be cast isn't realistic, because most beings will dedicate their time to matters they deem actually important. Dragons will want to be worshipped, they'll want to gather treasure and followers, etc. Outsiders will be in involved plots to further their master's needs on a given plane. All of this precludes memorization of the magical types and customs on a random planet.

2
alpha_dk•

For that matter, an observer has no reason to differentiate almost any type of caster.

It's always just a knowledge (local) roll away.

0
Chac-McAjaw•

The recall intrigues use of the knowledge skill only applies if they see you using a class feature, and that feature produces a detectable effect. You can’t roll to see if someone is a fighter just because you saw them using a martial weapon.

Furthermore, Knowledge (Local) only allows you to identify features of non-spellcasting classes.

3
Holoklerian•

You can’t roll to see if someone is a fighter just because you saw them using a martial weapon.

Technically that would use their Weapon Training class feature, provided they're level 5+, and them just walking around in armor would use Armor Training.

2
Chac-McAjaw•

Why is the monster fighting? What is their reason to oppose the PCs?

Sure, a dragon could stay out of range of PC attacks until their spells run out, but if the fight takes place in the dragon’s lair then staying totally out of range of the party gives them the opportunity to loot some of the dragon’s hoard. Stopping the players would require getting close enough for their own spells or attacks to hit; is the dragon willing to wait however long it takes for the party buffs to run out before stopping them from fleeing? If the dragon parks itself at the entrance of its lair to physically block the party, then the party can just attack it while it’s close.

If it truly is a totally random encounter with a monster that has no reason to be there, then yes, your buddies are right, but if the monster wants to protect something or stop the party from doing something this strategy is not the optimal one for them to take.

13
ProfRedwoods•

A dragon atop his horde awakens to adventurers loudly casting buff spells. "Extended righteous might!, Extended giant form 1, etc" with its high intelligence it calculates the level of the casters by the spell levels of the buffs and he teleports away intending to return just as the spells time out.

But he doesn't notice the halfling rogue slinking back to his party. "Alright guys, he's gone. we have at least 20minutes to stuff as much as we can into our bags of holding and teleport away!"

11
Random_SomebodyOP•

Lol the thing that triggered this conversation was a dragon encounter I described. They seemed to be honestly kinda salty at the idea that a party could even survive (not beat, just survive) an encounter against a higher CR dragon, with the outright claim that "no PCs should ever stand a remote chance against a properly played dragon until they can spam mass armies of simulacrums. Otherwise the DM is just playing a stupid lizard."

I didn't agree, asked why and was told a Dragon should easily use its superior fly speed plus infinite use breath weapon to pick off PCs. I mentioned various spells (Energy Reistance for said Breath Weapon, Calcific Touch plus other Reflex/Dex targeting stuff, Spectral Hand to avoid murder blender range, other ranged options, etc) and tactics (using cover for reflex bonus+general protection, avoiding bunching up, making sure it can't get a full attack off, etc). Then came the claims none of this matters since the Dragon's inherent qualities meant it should've pwnzored us since 200 Fly+Breath Weapon+16 Int = Unbeatable?? I noted all of those strengths aren't really dragon specific which spun out into the above.

But yeah per their assertions for scenario above, (which is fucking great not gonna lie) apparently a Dragon's glorious mental stats and lived experience means it could trivially use Spellcraft and Sense Motive to figure out the ruse and/or its hoard of Dispell Magic+Other Scrolls to counter everything they try before blending the presumptuous monkeys. I mean maayybbe the first but I admit I'll never quite buy the idea Dragon's hoard means it should stock up on everything to counter anything the players could potentially do. Like a Dragon's hoard is its hoard not its strategic defense fund. Sure maybe a Dragon shouldn't be completely naked (though I'm under the impression creature stat blocks were mostly built in mind to run "as is"), but doesn't whatever instinct or inherent species-wide compulsion that drives a Dragon to hoard inherently preclude them from spending said hoard willy nilly?

5
ProfRedwoods•

Honestly people who think dragons should just fly around and breath weapon have never faced a competent Pathfinder archer, or God forbid a gunslinger (say ancient dragon what's your touch ac these days, 8?). They may as well be anti-aircraft cannons.

And between breath weapons from a dragon and full round attacks from an archer, the dragon is going to die first. This will essentially force the dragon to land to try to take out the ranged. Which is a race against time because of the action economy and ya know the buffs the dragon wants to time out. Also spending a turn dispelling magic is a turn spent getting filled with arrows.

I run a hard campaign. My monsters focus damage on squishies, coordinate 5 foot steps to get flanking, withdraw in order to regroup, they don't grapple characters that use natural attacks, and will take advantage of their reach and attack casters from adjacent squares and martials from the edge of their reach. I never run an encounter equal to their CR and if it's going to be a single creature it'll likely be 4-5 cr above their APL. If my players can't handle a dragon being able to fly and drop an aoe every ~2.5 rounds then it'd probably be a tpk. I don't think I've ever killed a player with a dragon much less a tpk.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
HadACookie100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth•

"Guns are pointless. I mean, if you think about it realistically, any intelligent opponent should be able to easily deal with a squad relying on firearms. You just kite them until they run out of ammo and then suddenly they're stuck with what amounts to glorified clubs. In real life, a weapon with such an obvious weakness would never replace a good old spear".

10
TheCybersmith•

Unironically, yes.

That's why bayonets exist.

1
HadACookie100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth•

A) congrats on achieving mastery in thread necromancy. I hope you will only use your profane powers for good.

B) Modern bayonets are pretty pointless and I was talking about modern firearms.

C) Guns were in common military use well before bayonets became common, typically in formation with pikemen. The development of bayonets simply allowed the armies of that time to get rid of the outdated pointy sticks.

1
ElasmoGNC•

The person making that claim is probably used to parties being over-reliant on short-term buffs. That, in turn, is usually a sign of too short of an adventuring day. PCs should not be able to rely on “always” having any buff shorter than hours/level (and even then, not at low levels). Yes, if casters blow through all their spells for a half-hour of crazy, they’re walking on eggshells the rest of the day. This is also a reason party composition is important; they shouldn’t all be reliant on magic to be effective anyway.

9
MistaCharisma•

Most monsters and non-casters have some kind of Vancian casting as well.

SLAs are usually X/day abilities. Even a Barbairan's Rage is X/day. The classes without X/day abilities are the weaker classes, who can't affect the world in the same ways.

So what you've said isn't exactly wrong, but the PCs can use those tactics as well - and usually do.

Most combats etc in tabletop games happen when the PCs kick in the door and the NPCs are defending their home turf. Sure the NPC could bug-out, but then the PCs loot their home-base and the NPC has to start from scratch again. When you've spent the last decade amassing the scrolls of Imhotep in order to resurrect your dark lord, the last rhing you want to do is let the PCs torch the place.

Also a Succubus with a bow isn't exactly a threat to my 10th level Bloodrager, so that tactic goes out the window pretty quickly.

7
Jackal_Phoenix•

The Succubus (CR 7) example was explicitly for a LVL 5-6 party; bringing in a Bloodrager 10 kinda misses the point.

4
Yakostovian•

You said "kinda" when "entirely" is the ideal word here.

But otherwise absolutely correct.

2
Jackal_Phoenix•

I was feigning politeness.

Obviously LVL 6 vs CR 7 is a very different encounter LVL 10 vs CR 7.

3
Yakostovian•

I endorse your manners. You are a kinder soul than I am.

But your point is again correct; the power disparity makes a CR7 trivial for most Level 10s (in many cases, even when soloing that encounter) while that same CR7 is usually an appropriate "boss fight" for a party of 5 level 5s.

3
Random_SomebodyOP•

Yeah I did say that, but the other person was arguing that even a Level 10 party with a Bloodrager et al still does not have the resources to reliably take down a Succubus since they have limited Dimensional Anchors, that relying on piercing SR is still "luck based" and/or also burns through spells too quickly if you use stuff like Sure Casting, and even then it can full-withdraw fly away until Dim Anchor wears off and outlast any Vancian flight spells. So according to them, even if the Succubus is not doing a lot of damage, it can chip away at a Level 10 with the Level 10's ways of countering it supposedly running out very quickly, while it has infinite mobility.

I'm of the opinion even for a more appropriate level, like the mentioned 5-6 (so everything after this would doubly apply for level 10), the single round or two it does stay around to fire off a single shot is more than enough for bow attacks from even martials that doesn't necessarily specialize in ranged weapons, and other ranged attacks (like even magic missile) to potentially attrition it down too. But then the argument was the Succubus could retreat to heal up with like Boots of Wide Earth (yes they take it for granted this is a few hours in so Dim Anchors et al have been used up) and continue inflicting attrition faster than the party can damage it. My gut feeling says the math doesn't really work but yeah, haven't exactly precisely analyzed what an actual day, or more, seemingly random, endless snipe attacking would actually translate to.

0
Jackal_Phoenix•

Get a group of buddies to make a party of 10th level characters; give him his succubus.

See how well that works out for him... hell, reduce starting resources to like a quarter or fifth to avoid the nova situation. Guarantee that Succubus stands little chance.

As I understand, your buddy/acquaintance is the one with the false perspective, rather than yourself: so even do the same with a 5th, or even 4th, level party. Due to action economy a single enemy is rarely enough of a threat to do more than drain resources or postpone.

In general, I'm still iffy on what this argument really comes down to; so apologies if I'm arguing poorly.

4
Random_SomebodyOP•

Oh lol no problem, yeah I kinda rambled. The "argument" is essentially just up to the paragraph right after the bulleted list, with the rider "this is why Vancian sucks"

But yes, my gut feeling was "Okay, so a lot of creature blocks have really good innate flight or at-will teleport, but come on PCs have stuff they can do too? Even with a perfect snipe/spell stall strategy, I don't think a party winning versus a slightly higher CR creature is so implausible that it means the enemy was inherently handed the idiot ball/not appropriately played to their Int score." I did start wondering if I missed something, so asked to see if someone could do the math/theorizing to show that my gut was wrong, it is implausible, but hey that's just how the game works.

-1
Ready-Highlight6406•

Potions.

Scrolls.

Wands.

Staves.

7
robinick•

Everyone here has made good arguments/explanations for why this is silly, but I think what's really important about this is that:

  1. Pathfinder is a game. It's first and foremost meant to be fun. Stalling monsters are not fun. DMing has to strike a balance between """""logical"""" (and I do think this logic is flawed, by the by) and what's enjoyable for their players.

  2. CR has quite a few buffs baked in, the big 6 etc and some other minor buffs are expected in the creature's difficulty. Tactics like this would adjust that difficulty.

2.5) Not to mention while 12 is "above average" intelligence for sure, it's not "tactical genius." Sure, stall tactics may not qualify as genius tactics, but this sort of behavior is definitely something a DM could consider to make encounters more difficult if pcs are breezing through them. It just would have to be commensurate with the rest of the balancing, ie, the more annoying something is to fight and the harder it is to hit, the easier it better be to kill once you ARE able to hit it.

It's a bit like the whole "why doesn't everyone have sunder or use shatter to target holy symbols/arcane component pouches" debacle. Because it's obnoxious and would get old very quickly, even if it's a logical or smart action to take.

Optimization is fun! But people don't always make optimal choices, and sometimes we even do that on PURPOSE, because it's more fun that way.

TLDR: youre right, this is insane. It's insane because no one would enjoy playing like that, but could be fun to beef up encounters OCCASIONALLY if a dm needs to.

7
Random_SomebodyOP•

Optimization is fun! But people don't always make optimal choices, and sometimes we even do that on PURPOSE, because it's more fun that way.

Oh hey how did you know why I'm so incredibly soured on most "rational" literature these days. People are (not 'wrongly' imo) driven by emotions, have different cultural mores (so yes that persons 'idiocy' makes sense in the context that death in war isn't a bad thing for them), don't have perfect info, etc etc.

And yeah agreed regarding "doesn't this make the game ridiculously unfun?" So I'll continue to have monsters actually confront characters lol. (With exceptions to change things up obv)

3
_grey_autumn•

So, in principle I agree - kind of. An intelligent enemy against a party totally reliant on vancian magic (or any other limited resource) would overcome that party by wearing out their resources. If I'm a BBEG in that situation, I'm sending hordes of disposable skeletons/goblins for the Wizard to huck Fireballs at until they're just an old man with a stick, then swooping in for an easy kill. The dip-in-dip-out style of fighting is a more reasonable option for a solo enemy, but also a lot less effective IMO.

The key assumption here of course is that a party is totally reliant on their limited resources, a problem easily solved by a single Fighter or Gunslinger backing the party up. Buffs might be temporary, but I've never seen a party that went from 10/10 with buffs active to 1/10 with them offline - most are still around a 7~8 if the buffs really let them hit their peak. Even if you do need buffs, the party is just as able to get potions, wands, etc as the Succubus in your example is. They can have a lot of resources at their disposal before they're useless.

In the case of rapidly teleporting enemies, the tactic of getting a surprise round and teleporting away only works the first time, IMO. I imagine a lot of parties are going to be on high alert after that, with high enough Perception to notice when the Succubus appears and deny the surprise round - or prepare a round's worth of attacks for the second she shows up. The action economy is against her there even if the actions are relatively weak, and if she spends an action teleporting out then that's another turn in the player's favour. If she goes away to heal for a few turns, the party can pop potions as well to re-up buffs and cover heals. In short, I think tools exist to deal with a strategy like that.

But even more simply - why not turn invisible, coup de grace the Wizard while he's asleep, then Ethereal Jaunt out? Rinse and repeat with the other party members until the last remaining person inevitably falls asleep. Faffing about with trying to drain resources and wait out buffs seems like a huge waste of time when the party might have wands or potions for those buffs, just cut out the middle man and the middle man's throat.

6
CN_MinusInvisible•

Hahahaha, this is insane. Like, what, every monster knows everything you've cast, how long it lasts, and then is in the perfect scenario that allows them to leave whatever area they're in to wait out the buffs. THEN you've got to assume that the party is entirely buff-reliant to succeed, and THEN you've got to assume there aren't any pure damage, control, or manipulation type casters in the party.

This sort of absurd "realism" wouldn't even matter in the common DnD scenarios.

5
GenesithSupernova•

Entangle, icy prison, color spray, grease, stinking cloud, dazing fireball, wall of thorns, sleet storm, solid fog, create pit, glitterdust, wall of force, shadow trap, slow, debilitating pain, I think I fell asleep somewhere in there

Anyway like half the best vancian spells extremely stop you from running away please cast something other than a mediocre buff

Or at least use ranged weapons, longbows can shoot people 700 feet away (with penalties blah blah blah)

Basically any tactic better than cast buff spell -> hit them in the face solves this "problem"

5
GenesithSupernova•

Also you need greater arcane sight to identify all of someone's buffs without spending a billion actions on greater detect magic

2
Random_SomebodyOP•

Oh really? Both I and the other person thought just a Spellcraft Check would be enough. Though if what you say is true, doesn't it kinda make the "lol Vancian useless, monsters can just outlast," weaker?

And yeah the specific case that triggered the convo was mid-level party vs Young Adult Dragon. I mentioned stuff like Calcific Touch with Spectral Hand (or anything that can entangle the right size, targets Reflex, etc), plus Sure Casting for SR vs Dragon. Their claim was "Well you're still relying on luck to penatrate SR, none of those spells actually last long enough, and you can only do it twice a day at mid levels so dragon still effortlessly gg's you." My gut feeling is that 'only' once or twice is more than enough to work but yeah didn't run full battle sim.

1
GenesithSupernova•

You can spellcraft to identify a spell as it's cast, but you need detect magic/arcane sight to identify a spell that's already around's school and greater detect magic/greater arcane sight to identify the exact spell (though some might have obvious manifestations you can spellcraft regardless).

It's not that hard to pump caster level checks to beat SR, especially at higher levels. Besides, there are a ton of SR:no spells - most of the ones I listed above don't check spell resistance. Chains of Light is a great one against adult dragons if you're high enough level and have a good fly speed from air walk, overland flight, fly, etc - they have terrible Reflex, and it's devastating if it lands. Otherwise, lesser dazing rod basically anything, calcific touch as you said, glitterdust, etc.

2
Slow-Management-4462•

Mobility and range vs. pure melee Big Dumb Fighters and those that buff them will go to the mobile ranged adversary in an open field. However, BDFs often include some ability at archery when buffed and archery outranges SLAs handily, buffers can usually blast a bit, and it's not unlikely that any given conflict will happen somewhere other than an open field on a clear day.

3
countextreme•

Wizards and succubi are two of my favorite mid-campaign recurring villains precisely because their Int is high and they can easily work through agents, creating problems for the party and having escape routes ready.

That being said, you should really expect the party to start keeping Dimensional Anchor ready after the first time the bad guy gets away. They can learn too, you know.

One of the NPCs the party has an opportunity to recruit/hire/work with is a Riftwarden when I run my homebrew campaigns for newer players that aren't familiar yet with how many bad guys have Teleport or Plane Shift access. It's always a cool scene when the bad guy teleports away gravely injured and the party starts getting all disappointed, and then she reaches out and rips them back, complete with the "ah, ah, ah" finger wag. (I usually fiat away some requirements so she can have enough levels of Riftwarden to make it useful around the mid-game point)

2
Shotagonist•

That whole premise is assuming the parties are idiots who mainly use buffs and try to engage in melee. They're perfectly able to kill with ranged weapons/spells.

That aside, how do parties without magic tackle this succubus? A fighter would have even less chance of fighting back against this strategy.

2
eldrol21•

For one why would the creature know how each caster operates or what spells they have or how many they have left. Two if a creature like that did see someone casting buff spells and ran away why would they come back, clearly they don't want to fight magic. Three being intelligent doesn't mean they aren't confident in themselves, they more likely than not see themselves as above other creatures or at least these lowly mortal races. Four even if you have the intelligence to make that strategy its not necessarily something you would implement at least not right away, being more likely to hover around or warp around while peppering the party from afar unless they get into a precarious situation at which point they might flee if their pride allows it.

2
OrenjevelGlyph of Warding Enthusiast•

Counterpoint: A vancian caster can stop you from taking defensive stalling actions with a standard action. Or a swift action if they're strong enough.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
ReisenBnuuy•

A Succubus by no means does these sneak attacks usually as they avoid fighting if they can help it. Rather, they rely on social manipulation to land their energy drain or maybe turn friendly NPCs against the party - or in extreme cases, fan the flames on party infighting.

1
Electric999999I actually quite like blasters•

It's certainly an effective tactic against a party that is completely reliant on buffs, but that's not usually the case.

This won't work if they've got a blaster who just kills the monster in a round or two (maybe if their damage sucked and the creature had healing it could just run away until it's healed back up repeatedly, do note that that works against pretty much any party that can't down it in a single round)

It certainly won't help against a caster that uses save or lose or sufficiently strong save or suck. If it's dependant on teleporting to escape a single Dimensional Anchor ends it, if it's superior speed then a Slow spell works, to save nothing of Hold Monster, Flesh to Stone, Chains of Light, Icy Prison, all of which pretty much win the fight with one failed save.

Then there's the buffs that last far too long to really wait out (wildshape for example)

An archer warpriest is both super buff dependant and likely to come close to killing it with a single round of full attacking with swift action divine power.

Even the most buff dependant characters are rarely helpless without them, and unless the monster has unlimited healing it's going to get worn down just as much as they are.

1
gatherer818•

If the monsters are willing to run away, the party can likely just complete their objective. "Good thing those flying monsters with above-average intellect all just flew away instead of defending the volcano path, now we can throw the ring in no issues."

1
RickPerrysCum•

How has this post been up for over a month without anyone telling you that you're using the term "Vancian" wrong?

Vancian casting is another way to refer to prepared casters. The term refers to Jack Vance's fantasy stories, in which characters prepared spells much in the same way that Wizards do in Pathfinder. Oracles, being spontaneous casters, do not use Vancian magic.

1