Source
r/Parkour•
lethalbeef

A proposition for this subreddit re: parkour/freerunning.

Obviously there's an issue between whether or not so-called freerunning links should be posted on this subreddit, as it is labeled r/parkour, and there is an ongoing debate over whether or not freerunning should be subsumed under this subreddit.

Personally I don't find the "solution" of banishing all freerunners to a separate subreddit (r/freerun) to be effective at all. New users will not understand the dynamic or will be overzealous about it, it creates a dichotomy that may be excessively partisan, and it does nothing to promote the understanding of the disciplines or the principles behind things because it stifles discussion and attempts to keep traceurs from learning from freerunners and vice versa.

I think the real problem is not that people don't understand that a perceived difference exists. I think the problem is in essence, two things:

  1. Some people (sometimes) are not interested in seeing the various innovations/integrations that we find in freerunning videos, they are only in this subreddit looking for videos, etc that focus on power and speed.
  2. Some people are disappointed that after the effort it has taken to create a dichotomy/understand the terminology, the main subreddit about parkour does not seem to be respecting that in the links that are submitted.

My proposition is that, instead of trying to put freerunning links in a corner (r/freerun has 300 subscribers and infrequent links, let's share the love), we can put both of the issues described above to rest by labeling links and videos that are submitted to this site. So we could create guidelines for this subreddit (better formed guidelines should exist anyway) for placing tags on links, namely [pk] or [fr] in order to clearly demarcate what is going on.

For now, I think we should test this out on videos only, because they probably cause the biggest stir. If it works well and seems like it'd be effective, we might want to label other things, or think of other labels and guidelines. Hopefully this can lead to a more structured, reasonably organized, self-regulating community.

Again, this is an initial proposition. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts or suggestions on this. No implementation yet.

Posted May 27, 2012, 11:11 PM UTC

5159
ChuckFinale•

r communism has a stalin clause - how this would translate here, is if anyone says "that's not parkour" or "that's not free running" they're breaking a rule. You can still discuss it parkour v free running in a principled way, on topic, but when someone puts up a video and you think they should label it one vs the other, you just shut up.

9
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

I would prefer not to tell people what can and cannot say in the subreddit. That's why I'm trying to make things guidelines and make as few rules as possible - I believe that we have the potential to be mature enough to self-regulate.

However, something like that might be a good corollary guideline, and we'll keep it in mind - keep on topic, save that discussion for specific threads, and check the FAQ before asking about it, etc. Thanks!

2
[deleted]•

Yeah, let's take advice from r/communism. Did you even read OP?

You're suggesting the opposite of what OP wants and without explaining why it would be favorable in any way. The problem is not the discussion, the problem is that the discussion isn't moving forward. Introducing labels would force newbies to think about what they are doing and thereby eliminate most confusion right off the bat.

-6
ChuckFinale•

Can you turn down the "snark" by at least 10%? Every post you have on this thread is seething with some sort of contempt.

6
ChaosLFG•
  1. You're an asshole.
  2. Chill.
  3. Other people can make suggestions.
  4. Being an asshole to people who make suggestions can work if you have a point, but your point is "Shut the fuck up I'm right," which isn't actually a point at all.
  5. Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill.
4
[deleted]•

your point is "Shut the fuck up I'm right," which isn't actually a point at all.

No, my points (!) were, in order of appearance:

ChuckFinale did not address OP's proposition of a labelling system, therefore he is off-topic.

Labels, as proposed by OP, would lead to education among new users.

Now, let's take a look at your post for a change:

  1. Direct insult
  2. Patronizing order
  3. Obvious off-topic fact
  4. Telling me you didn't like what I wrote
  5. Obnoxious repetition of the patronizing order

You contribute nothing to this discussion.

1
ChaosLFG•

"Yeah, let's take advice from r/communism. Did you even read OP?" Repeated harassment of anyone who disagrees with you throughout the entire thread.

I don't make logical, thought out responses to trolls.

0
gnarlysaurus•

When somebody submits a picture of themselves doing a backflip to parkour, it is a little annoying. But a video of freerunning with lots of flips doesn't bother me at all. I will never tell someone that it's not parkour because there are flips involved, but if the content is simply a flip, it doesn't make the cut.

8
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Yeah. Sometimes we just want to share the things we're proud of with people who we think will appreciate it. I'd like this to be a place where everyone is welcome to share that kind of stuff - even if it's just a backflip - because most of us understand how difficult it is to achieve a new movement, and many of us have at least tried flips and acrobatics. If we can figure out a way to do that without forcing people to agree with everything, maybe we can all get along :)

3
puck2•

This is a very good idea... r/bodyweightfitness has a similar overlap of various disciplines, and side from the occasional flareup, is relatively peaceful and constructive.

7
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Good to know! What issues does bodyweightfitness have, and how have they managed to resolve their issues?

1
[deleted]•

r/bodyweightfitness overcomes some of its issues by giving user tags which describe what sport that user is focusing on, be it gymnastics, parkour, calisthenetics or whatever. This works there because they have about a dozen tags which cover most options. Here, giving people a choice between Parkour or Freerunning won't help at all because lots of people do both and the definitions of each are somewhat loose.

4
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

I think, for the people who really care, the definition of "parkour" is strict enough that it will be easy to label; freerunning is often irresponsibly defined ("anything with flips", ugh), and that may be a problem. Another option might be to ask people to be much more descriptive in their titles, but that wouldn't be nearly as elegant. Perhaps if we can figure out reasonably loose definitions that don't overlap too much, that most people can agree on, this system will be able to overcome that problem.

1
puck2•

r/bodyweightfitness has a comprehensive and well managed FAQ. Questions (i.e. in your case "what is the difference bet. freerunning and parkour" or whatever) can be hashed out and memorialized in the FAQ so the stream stays uncluttered with repetition of the same questions/answers/debates.

2
gibs•

Can I counter-propose that everyone stop being so pedantic/elitist about definitions? The variations of these sports constantly overlap, and there is not a consensus on either definition. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by debating the murky definitions, and this community is strengthened by being welcoming to the various forms of parkour & freerunning.

5
adriannezy•

There isn't a consensus on the on the definition? I'm seriously surprised. I really thought it was clear. Parkour is about efficiency and freerunning is about creativity in space. Different intents born from the same set of basic movements and core belief in natural movement. What is the argument that I'm missing?

I think OPs solution is fine. So many people train both and a video of a freerunner is going to utilize the same core movement as parkour. Everyone can learn from that.

7
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

The FAQ will address that question, when we get around to it :)

Basically, there are some who feel that parkour has a very strict definition. There are others who feel like the dichotomy is unnecessary (some discussion in this thread). There are others who have embraced the term freerunning.

1
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

While I tend to be on your side on this one, unfortunately, your counterproposition isn't really productive or feasible. I'm looking for a way to ease us into that state, so that the inevitable bickering will stay out of the comment threads and stay in, say, an FAQ or somewhere.

3
gibs•

To me it's simply a matter of having general agreement among the mods to define the scope of this sub as inclusive of all forms of parkour & freerunning, and making that clear on the sidebar & faq. At the moment the sidebar requests that freerunning vids get posted to r/freerun, which only serves to fuel the bickering & divisiveness (while at the same time being a pointless distinction, as vids containing tricking are constantly posted & upvoted here).

1
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Agreed - the sidebar suggestion was an attempt at solving the problem, and it didn't work. I think something like this might work better, because clearly a mod-generated sidebar definition of parkour, etc isn't going to be good enough. We can't just delete all of the stupid debates in the comments - well we could, but that would be terrible. Thanks for your input.

2
SideyrMéthode Naturelle•

How is it pedantic to differentiate between two separate things? How is it elitist to recognize different motivations?

Parkour was created with the spirit of helping either yourself or others. Training yourself to be useful. Its origins started as an idea of training codified by Georges Herbert (he developed parcours du combattant, an obstacle course training method for the military). Raymond Belle, a military firefighter stationed in Vietnam, trained himself with similar methods so that he might be able to better rescue people. David Belle was inspired by his father and began to create his own method of movement based on what was passed down to him and developed Parkour. The history is important; the training was not just about movement. Parkour started as movement motivated by its usefulness. How would you escape in any given situation? If someone was trapped or injured, how would you get to them? What is the fastest way to overcome something in your path?

Ignoring those motivations takes away part of what makes parkour unique. It takes away the idea that people should help each other. It takes away the idea that improving oneself can benefit society.

People have many reasons for training and many different motivations.

The way I see it, Freerunning is about the movement. It is art. Art improves society. It is beautiful. It shows people what they can achieve and what humans are capable of.

Parkour is about the idea. Training to be able to directly help yourself or someone else. The movement is not what is important, it develops out of a goal of efficiency.

Neither of these hold a higher place, but they do hold a different place.

2
gibs•

You're arguing that there is a distinction to be made between freerunning and parkour. I'm not disputing that (in fact I don't think anyone is).

1
SideyrMéthode Naturelle•

Can I counter-propose that everyone stop being so pedantic/elitist about definitions? The variations of these sports constantly overlap, and there is not a consensus on either definition. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by debating the murky definitions...

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but this sounded like you were saying the two were so similar that distinctions were pedantic.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
gibs•

To preface, I don't expect you to understand any of this, given your previous attempt at comprehension was abysmal. But anyway...

People who differentiate between two completely different things are elitists, gotcha.

That's quite an interpretation. No, the people who constantly bicker about definitions are pedantic and the people who bicker about one or the other being inferior are elitist. Perhaps it's not something you notice, but there is a lot of elitism here and it's partially fueled by this petty divide over definitions.

Exactly! This is the very issue everyone is trying to resolve!

The attempt at solving it is what is causing all the bickering and pettiness. Is it still not clear to you what this whole discussion is about?

If you're too cool to think about differences in the application of movement then why participate in a discussion about the topic only to tell others to stop discussing?

You're a piece of work. I don't know if you even realise how much of a strawman this is. Either way, try a bit harder to see the other side of the debate.

2
combustible•

Wait... is that guy legit Paul Corkery?

edit I checked his post history, way too insightful on the whole to be ez.

1
MadnessEvolved•

I'm all for using the tags for posts. If I see something labelled correctly then I'm more inclined to watch it if I'm interested. And I can pass over the stuff I'm not interested in.

I'd rather watch pure PK vids because it's what I do, and I look to these vids to check out other people's flows and moves. I find it off putting to open up a video in a PK sr and see nothing but flips.

If the other sr is dead, I've no real issue in putting our support in it here. Somebody has to be the better party and step in, right? (I guess those might be words for flame but I stand by them)

Using the tags is a good idea and I'd be happy to see it. I know I'd bitch a lot less about the whole debacle as it would then be correctly identified :)

5
Guzidus•

I was going to suggest making a third subreddit for both but this idea is much better. might I suggest posting something in the sidebar that explains how they are different and still the same.

4
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

That used to be in the sidebar but it was changed fairly recently to its current state. If we, as a subreddit and a mod team, can agree on how to do this properly sidebar will be updated with guidelines and more resources.

6
antonfireLos Angeles, CA•

I feel like this will only lead to people arguing about how a video should have been labeled.

2
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Good point. Do you think there's a way we could mitigate this in the guidelines for labeling? Perhaps making [pk] be parkour-centric, so there's some wiggle room?

1
scroom38•

If a video is 100% parkour, use [pk]. If a video is 100% freerunning, use [fr]. If the video is some combination of the two, use [pf], which stands for parkour/freerunning. There would of course be wiggle room, if a video is intended as a parkour demo, but has a few flips, it could be labled either [pk] or [pf]. Having 3 labels would help tremendously in merging the subreddits.

6
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

The correct third tag would be [rf], for Rage Froobling.

Just kidding. I feel like very, very few things are 100% in either direction, and that third tag would be problematic in that every video would be labeled [pf]... I'll think about this, thanks.

1
scroom38•

Well, it does not need to be 100%, just have people call out what style they are going for. If it is around 50/50, use [pf]. If they do not know, or the video is a bunch of sillyness, use [rf].

2
TJtraceur•

I agree on the third tag, if you are posting in a purely Parkour sense, use [pk], otherwise [pf] if you do Parkour and some Freerunnning, and [fr] if you don't really care about the ideals of Parkour...

1
SammyJ98Alaska•

How about combine them into r/movement. Parkour and freerunning are both words put into place to describe the same thing. Pointless dichotomy considering neither of them are even what Belle and Yamakasi did (ADD).

1
puck2•

r/movement is already some sort of cannibis SR and it seems too vague anyway...

2
[deleted]•

Parkour and freerunning are both words put into place to describe the same thing

Says who? What Belle and the Yamakasi did hardly matters to anyone practising for either goal (speed or style) today, and free runners are the only people I ever see bringing up the founders. Mighty ironic considering the common insult "elitist" is always targetted at traceurs.

It's just movement is a non-argument. Let me demonstrate:

Mother and father are arguing what will be for dinner. Dad says meat, mom says fish. You come in and clear everything up by declaring, "It doesn't matter, it's all food."

According to you the conflict must be resolved now so what's for dinner?

Exactly. And in the same way, the dispute about definitions doesn't end with someone declaring that it's "pointless". You are not helping.

2
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Ooh, interesting point. I find that it's often the pure parkour guys/definitionists who bring up the founders constantly; freerunners tend to just let it go because they're comfortable with their labeling. But whatever, this is kind of off topic. Let's save it for another discussion - if/when this goes through, I'll put up another thread to discuss FAQ topics.

1
TJtraceur•

I wish I had more upvotes to give you.

1
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

"Movement" in my opinion is too general. Regardless of the fact that you can interpret parkour and freerunning as the same thing, there are people who would object to that because of a different interpretation of how you categorize movements, and it's legitimate to some degree. However, saying that it's all movement is a pretty useless statement, and something like that would have to be inclusive of everything, including pilates, zumba, headbanging, and rolling on the floor. Parkour and freerunning, however, DO have a clear relationship, they are related to what Belle and the Yamakasi did and do, and it makes sense to have this subreddit, r/parkour, be the one that captures it. There is no reason to make yet another useless empty subreddit.

1
[deleted]•

All aboard, let's do it.

The problem is summed up much easier than using 1 and 2, the problem is:

There are different goals to pursue with movement, yet a considerable population in this subreddit acts like there aren't.

My best guess would be because they simply haven't thought about their own goal so they have nothing to contribute. I invite those people to do so now:

For parkour "efficiency" is the word that everyone keeps bringing up but then again is parkour really efficient or just "fast"? The way I see it traceurs drive a 1980s Ferrari compared to the average pedestrian's little Japanese electric car. It's far from efficient when we climb up a wall to save ten steps on a staircase but if those ten steps would take us longer then we'll climb. Parkour is about SPEED.

And Free-running is not.
You can chain together a line over obstacles but you won't go as fast as you can. What exactly it is you try to accomplish by doing tricks I need not say, it's outside of my personal interests.

However that is a dispute among free-runners I'd like to see. Clearing up what it is they actually do. Putting an end to the pseudo-spiritual "It's just movement" crap. Don't worry, I'll explain why it's crap. It's meaningless crap because there is no information being conveyed in the statement. If anything the statement is "Let's stop thinking about it." Well, if you want to stop thinking you should try meditation, rather than interrupting intellectual discussions with non-arguments. I'm rather certain that the people who haven't chosen a goal are the same ones coming into these discussions and contributing nothing. It makes sense for those who have nothing to contribute to contribute nothing (but pretend that it's something).

1
ChaosLFG•

You know, if you want people to agree with you, you might want to not make sweeping generalizations about why people do what they do, and why those reasons are "crap."

2
adriannezy•

Time has become a measure to make competition possible, but speed is not efficiency. If we both are going to reach a roof top and you race up the stairs and I wall run and climb up in three or four fluid motions what I've done is still more efficient than your 20 steps even if we reach the top at the same time. I've used strength and momentum to conserve movement.

1
SideyrMéthode Naturelle•

You are going about this in the wrong way. The point of explaining a difference should not be to alienate anyone. If someone is doing a flip it does not harm you. If they call it parkour, they are not doing it to spite you. They might not know, or have an interest in, the history behind why parkour was created or the goal it had.

Parkour is not just about speed (For one thing something may be faster, but waste more energy and therefore be less efficient. Efficiency is the best combination of speed versus expended energy). Parkour is about efficiency and purpose (being able to help yourself and others). It is rare to find people training with this in mind, but I personally think it is a worthwhile enough motivation to continue to try to bring people around.

1
[deleted]•

They might not know, or have an interest in, the history behind why parkour was created or the goal it had.

That's not whom I'm talking about. I mean people who insist on using the terms wrong even when I tell them about it.

1
squirrel92•

i like this and you can also do it like GW and be creative with your titles

1
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Nice, I like it.

1
SideyrMéthode Naturelle•

I like this idea. I see some potential problems we should try to address.

The main problem, which my position on the subject does not help, is that people will use incorrect naming to dismiss talking about a topic (I am sure I am guilty of this and for the sake of the community I will attempt to fix it). I think that a comment should not only address incorrect labeling. No, "Should be [fr]." The only thing this seems to accomplish is the person feeling like they need to defend themselves and the conversation devolves.

At the same time though, I would like something on the sidebar to address the history behind Parkour and at least discuss the spirit in which it developed. I know I am not the only one who practices Parkour with the original definition in mind and I would like to be able to point people to more information about it.

I think that directing people to the sidebar should be allowed in a non-dickish way, but hopefully will be better received and not interpreted as an attack on something the person was obviously proud enough to share.

1
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

Awesome! I'm really glad that we are coming to a productive consensus here, and I appreciate your suggestions.

Hopefully if we are clear enough about the guidelines for labeling, we won't have to deal with people correcting it, but that's probably a pipe dream. I think it should be okay that people will get to decide where they want to have a conversation - if they don't feel like talking about motivations behind parkour or something, they can pass that over for the day. On the other hand, if they do want to make that discussion, at the very least they'll probably have to watch the video and make some sort of on-topic comment. In general though, yes, comments should avoid being just about how things should be labeled, and we should ask readers to ignore and/or downvote comments of that nature.

There's no question that the sidebar will address the history of parkour, the culture and community behind it, and how to get started. Much of this will probably be stored in a linked FAQ, but a general introduction will be visible. We can collaborate as a subreddit to determine what kind of things should be on the sidebar and the FAQ, what links are available, etc.

We should try to do everything in a non-dickish way. Perception is based on the culture of the subreddit though, let's try to be civil to each other, have intelligent conversations, help each other out, and make a welcoming atmosphere for new traceurs.

1
Schroedingers_gif•

90% of pure parkour videos belong in r/boring.

-11
Crinnle•

May the Karma gods have mercy on your soul...

4
Pickle_64•

This is just negativity that defeats the purpose of the proposal and doesn't offer any constructive criticism. instead of giving suggestions as to how to improe a building, you have metaphorically said, "this looks gay", and thrown a brick through one of it's windows.

grow a brain.

3
Schroedingers_gif•

No, I looked at the building that doesn't allow decorations and said that in comparison to the ones that do, it's incredibly dull.

l1consolable can make a video of only parkour and have it be good, hardly anyone else can/does.

-2
lethalbeefOPSFParkour / USA•

l1consolable isn't just an exception. I'm sure if you make a call for it people will be able to show you tons of really well done parkour motivated by speed and routes.

3
Schroedingers_gif•

I'm not saying people aren't amazing at parkour, I'm saying it doesn't make for interesting videos by and large.

-1
Pickle_64•

l1consolable can make a video of only parkour and have it be good, hardly anyone else can/does.

your rebuttal is saying 1 person does good, the rest are boring? congratulations

3
Schroedingers_gif•

When I try to think of mind blowingly good videos that are "pure parkour" his are the only ones that come to mind.

0
Guzidus•

excuse me?

0