Tolerating criticism more objectively

Seeking Stoic Advice

TLDR: I would like to get better at taking criticism and would welcome ideas, exercises or reading in that direction. Whatever you got. (except criticism, can't tolerate that)

HOLY WALLS OF TEXT BATMAN- I've organized this from core idea to anecdotes providing context. Don't feel like you have to read every word to comment if you have something to add.

I'd like to get better at accepting criticism more objectively and looking past people's tones. I've, historically been kind of a bristly, prideful person. I don't blow up at people or anything, but I take criticism way too personally. Someone criticizing something I like or that I made is a personal attack. On me. Or at least that's how it feels, even if I know logically that isn't true.

And this is a problem. I like making stuff, both professionally and personally. And the only way to make better stuff is to have people critique it. And I would like to be upset less in life. Particularly over things that are outside of my control. I want to work on a) taking criticism of things I made less personally b) being more objective and detached when sifting out legitimate criticism from BS.

Any thoughts?

Story time! (anecdotal stories to provide some actual examples)

I was recently reading the comment section of a popular hardware hacking website and an individual posted a pretty scathing critique of the design featured in the article. It was the oddest mix of technically correct observations about the project, areas for improvement and baseless assumptions about the original designer's experience level.

> The fact he’s carrying a full sized tripod for photography, is all the proof I need that he has never actually backpacked in his life. Mount it to the handle of your entrenchment tool and take it down when pooping. No single use things in pack.

> The fact that his blades aren’t twisted at all, is all the proof I need that he has never actually looked at a working propeller or windmill. Nor given the matter much thought.

> The fact that he’s using a stepper motor as a generator, is all the proof I need that he never done a project with any motor more complicated than a stepper. Did he even test it with a load? A generator without a load resistor becomes a tachometer, measures rotation speed, not power output. Results will always say ‘smaller prop, lower pitch, better’.

> Also lose the weather vane part and turn it around. Wasted weight. Granting once you decide you need a photographic tripod saying ‘F the weight’ is understandable.

> Hackaday should have a kids section. For projects we shouldn’t be critical of. Kids making an effort should be encouraged.

I read this and I really bristled on the designer's behalf. I wanted to pound out a reply and show the asshole who's boss. Or just call them out on being so nasty for no reason. Why do you have to put that out into the world? I actually opened the 'reply' field and filled out my details...

But I know a pointless fight when I see one. Engaging with this individual (about their tone) will accomplish nothing and will likely just perpetuate the behavior. This isn't even my design so it's doubly silly. Why do I care if this person is a jerk? Why do I feel the need to 'right' this 'wrong'? What a silly thing to get upset about. 'Breaking news, someone was mildly derogatory on the internet!' And the commenter sounds like he's right about some of those things. Some of those suggestions seem legitimate.

Story 2

So I spent a lot of time (over a year) working on a project at work. After a lot of blood, sweat and tears, the project is reaching completion. We had a last design review, which my direct boss sat in on. He hadn't been involved with this project at all so this was his first time really seeing it. After the presentation he added a page to my online, shared note repository titled 'What we should have done' and copy pasted a couple screen grabs from an amazon product page.

I was livid. I wanted to quit on the spot. I was furious. I got absolutely nothing done the rest of the day. I altered the note page with a snarky and passive aggressive retort and then just seethed about it (but later deleted my updates). We had a one on one meeting a few days later and he mentioned that he'd sent a similar email the manager over to the project manager (a professional peer of his) and received a tersely worded refutation. "I don't think my suggestion was very well received. What do you think?" I was pretty icy in my tone and mannerisms and told him I didn't have anything to say about it, which is pretty atypical of our interactions. He sputtered a bit and gave some explanations and we eventually moved past it.

So I'll preface this with saying in this case, my boss is dead wrong in the technical sense of the problem. His solution wouldn't work for multiple reasons, any one of which would make the project a failure. He's frustrated by some of the larger structures of our company that led to this project developing in the way it did. I happen to think he's right about this, but that is neither here nor there. On further reflection, I think that my boss was kind of lazy and fairly tactless, but ultimately not trying to be malicious. But I took this, really, really personally. Too much so.

Posted May 3, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

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mountaingoat369•

Two recommendations:

  1. Distance who you are from what you do (look at u/Kromulent's comment for a good framing of this).
  2. Reduce criticism to its base, objective components.

Let's do #2 with the forum post you were frustrated by:

The fact he’s carrying a full sized tripod for photography, is all the proof I need that he has never actually backpacked in his life. Mount it to the handle of your entrenchment tool and take it down when pooping. No single use things in pack.

The fact that his blades aren’t twisted at all, is all the proof I need that he has never actually looked at a working propeller or windmill. Nor given the matter much thought.

The fact that he’s using a stepper motor as a generator, is all the proof I need that he never done a project with any motor more complicated than a stepper. Did he even test it with a load? A generator without a load resistor becomes a tachometer, measures rotation speed, not power output. Results will always say ‘smaller prop, lower pitch, better’.

Also lose the weather vane part and turn it around. Wasted weight. Granting once you decide you need a photographic tripod saying ‘F the weight’ is understandable.

Hackaday should have a kids section. For projects we shouldn’t be critical of. Kids making an effort should be encouraged.

Okay, let's break it down:

  • Mount the tripod to the entrenchment tool so it is multi-use;
  • Ensure the blades are twisted for better results;
  • Use a different generator with a load resistor to avoid false results;
  • If weight is a concern, remove the weather vane part.

What's left is all opinion and judgement. Now you can objectively look at that text and determine which of these suggestions are true, useful, and necessary? Adopt those and discard the rest.

3
[deleted]•

Not op but that’s a very insightful look into similar situations I see pretty regularly.

Unrelated but maybe helpful…After years of also reading books about Buddhist psychology/mindfulness I can’t help but think the person who wrote the critique that you and op cited is enduring a lot of suffering. My guess is that someone who is content with themselves would use wording closer to your boiled down version.

I have found this thought process to be a helpful reminder of the short comings of myself and to have more patience with myself and others and take a step back from immediate, strong, unhelpful feelings

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mountaingoat369•

In Stoicism, we view such "passionate" behavior as indicative of some form of ignorance or irrationality. Irrationality leads to what Buddhists describe as "suffering" (which is a broader term than most generally understand it outside of philosophy). This person displayed ignorance in the following ways, as best I can surmise:

  • Ignorance related to the appropriateness of his behavior
  • Ignorance related to the effectiveness of his behavior
  • Ignorance related to the idea that not all content on the internet is made equally
  • Ignorance related to the idea that substandard engineering is morally bad to the point that it causes frustration at the mere sight of it

And if we wanted to address his behavior and correct it, so he can think more rationally, I would guide him through those points of ignorance in reverse order via epistemological questioning about his beliefs and behavior.

In Buddhism, there is a concept known as "Right Speech." It is similar to how Stoics approached language, though perhaps even more ascetic in nature. Distill your message to its most direct and least passionate language, so as to not give rise to such passions in yourself or others.

3
StrNotSizeOP•

Hey, thank you for your response (here and to the poster below). Good stuff ant a lot to think about. Sorry I didn't respond sooner; life is crazy and I wanted to think on it some instead of responding off the cuff.

WRT point 2: I think that I'm getting to that point, eventually, but I'm struggling with the path it takes for me to get there. There's a lot here... Feelings vs. Actions; what's in our control (what I do, how I outwardly respond, etc.) and what's not in my control (other people, how I feel about something, etc.). So I am (hopefully) not falling into the 'robot fallacy' of stoicism that says I must be an impassive rock, unaffected by any outside stimuli... blah, blah, blah. I'm a human. That poster was being nasty and it is not unreasonable to feel some distaste at that. What matters is how I react to it.

The point that I am ponderously rambling my way to is that I see it as an optimization issue. I am getting to the 'take what's good and discard the rest' place, but I would like to do it sooner/easier. Less handwringing. I don't think that I am ever going to be perfectly stoic, but I'd like to be better or at the absolute least, trying to be better. Do you have further thoughts in that direction?

I recognize this post is veering dangerously close to crowdfunded therapy, but the best that I can do is be aware of it.

1
mountaingoat369•

That poster was being nasty and it is not unreasonable to feel some distaste at that.

Yes, it is unreasonable. You are assenting to an irrational expectation that people should behave in a way you deem appropriate. That expectation is fueling your emotional reaction. If you suppress that emotional reaction in order to outwardly respond appropriately, you've still failed. Stoicism aims to eliminate the onset of passionate emotions through clarity of thought and clearheaded action. That does not make you a rock. There are still positive emotions that Stoics embrace and express. But negative emotions cloud judgement and make appropriate behavior more difficult or altogether impossible.

1
Kromulent•

I think the general principle here has to do with where we draw the boundaries of our identity.

For example, suppose I'm a rabid Mets fan, and my attachment to the team is part of how I perceive my self. When somebody attacks the team, they are attacking me, and I'll defend it with anger and passion, just as I'd defend myself.

If I am an artist, it would be even easier for me to identify myself with my works. Tell me my color choice was wrong, and you've told me that I'm wrong.

This sort of attachment to external things is one of the ways we come to believe that external things can be good or bad, or that there is a way that things 'should' be, and that it applies to everyone. Everyone should recognize the harmony of the color scheme here, and if they don't, they are not only incorrect, they are wrong, and they should feel bad, be shamed, be dressed down, in order to make things right and correct again.

2
StrNotSizeOP•

Hello and thanks for your response. My initial reaction to 'put less of yourself into your work' is like a mule planting all four feet in the classic 'nope, not going anywhere near that' pose and my thoughts start down some pretty slippery slope logic.

Which means that there is probably something there because I (logic brained) know that I can make things (work) without being so stupidly invested in things. And that work can still be good. (it was almost painful to type that).

It breeds the question, what am I without that work. Which is a little terrifying.

Anywho, further thoughts on putting that into practice?

1
Kromulent•

what am I without that work. Which is a little terrifying.

That's a powerful insight. I'd suggest sitting with that for a while, anything more that you learn about it is going to be gold.

I'd also like to add that I never really suggested putting less of yourself into your work - and I think it's a valuable insight to see that this was your take on it. What I suggested was distinguishing your work from your identity. I can totally understand how easy it is to assume that this means caring less, or being less devoted, or lowering your standards for your work. It follows that no one would be eager to care less for themselves, or be less devoted to their own well-being, or lower their standards for themselves, so of course this is an intolerable thing to consider if your work, too, if your self and your work are merged into one.

Here's one way to think about the big question you've asked. Make a list of all the people you love most; what would they be without their work?

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