With Abortion being in the News. Are you aware that the Bible provides instructions on how a priest should proform an abortion?
Posted May 5, 2022, 5:33 AM UTC
0156
Yes, everyone here is aware of the ordeal of bitter water, and most are aware that this is not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it out to be.
This can easily be dismissed by saying it was God's judgement, not the preist, so God would never have allowed any developing human to actually die.
8
If you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry
What do you mean by "it" was God's judgment or Why are you talking about people dying? How Is your comment relevant to the passage. Please explain?
-1
God has destroyed 99.9% of all living humans ..before. - NOT an atheist.
-1
Not an atheist but I wonder about your knowledge relating to why he did it?
First and foremost, Nephilim and corruption of humans. Like Genesis, book of Enoch highlights that fallen angels taught mankind advance tech that caused our corruption, enabling many modern wonders like the stone slabs in some parts of the world more precisely cut than we can even cut now in our modern day. We are still looking for whatever tech they used.
And Nephilim, offsprings of Fallen angels and females women. Book of Enoch said they were born normally human size but grew taller, and we have countless written documents of 1912 from Smithsonian that they found 7-11 ft people.
Book of Enoch and Genesis tells us they were cannibalistic.
In fact, when we study Christoper Columbus and Alexander the Great, they wrote of these men who tried attacking them. These two men had entire teams of professional scientists, biologists, and other renowned men. They wouldnt lie for a tall tale as reputations what important in that time period.
Native Americans record their people being kidnapped and eaten by these taller men.
ANYWAYS; mankind became corrupted, raping each other, waging wars, etc. but mind you, by Pauls time only 400 million humans existed in biblical time lines and generations. So it has to be less than 400 million in Noahs time.
Still, the 99% was corrupted and doing evil to each other and as Genesis says, fallen angels caused so much nonsense and corruption that God has them chained up and they await judgement day.
Noah found favor and mind you, he warned for years to all people around him. They laughed and mocked him. One of the wives of a son of Noah had the Nephilim genes though.
This is why bible said the Nephilim were there before the flood and after.
So yeah, I don’t want to deal with a 9 ft person with supernatural powers because he is a mix of angel and human. And I do not want to find out what kind of tools built the pyramids, we can’t even be responsible with our own weapons and machines now, best not dwell in the past.
And mind you, all ancient religions have the same outline in story, that God’s came from the sky and taught mankind and giant looking humans wages war against God’s and mankind.
There is truth in fiction, and sometimes myth turns out to be anything but. If you study on your own, prepare your butt.
Now mind you, these giants were according to documents and expeditions and explorers words and natives, 8-11, some reports say up to 15 but for the sake of not having nightmares and what not, lets say 15 is not correct, ahahah, nightmare fuel….
But maybe this is why Israels army was “grasshoppers” in the eyes of Goliath….How tall was he 😅 also, Back then, from 1939 to before, most people were 5ft….
(All this is biblically backed even if you think it did not occur, will not debate on this fact specifically, cope with it, it’s what bible says in context and deep history)c
2
Yeah, I’m convinced it was a good thing. God created us and everything! How could I think to question? And yes, there’s so much neat stuff to learn about!
1
Yeah, and also remember, most people were 5ft. A 6ft person to me is tall. A 7 ft? Bruh!! But were talking people supposedly born able to be 11-12ft with reports in all countries from ancient times to 1912.
And places like Afghanistan and Central America have oral stories of these people.
Like nah I am good, 8ft? 9ft? Vs me? Nah I am good.
Also we found many artifacts like a hammer thar is 50 pounds and used one hand for it….Dude…our modern hammers weight less than 20 pounds usually….What kind of arm must you have for a 50 pound hammer that uses one hand?
Let me stop before I give myself a nightmare. This world is crazier than we think, stuff I’ve learned about ancient pagan rituals alone will make people scared.
Look up Moloch, and pagan child practices. Or dont for your own sanity.
And this is one reason too why they were flooded, This evil stuff relating to pagan God’s.
2
I think all future abortions should be done with the dusty water method.
8
Most abortions are chemically induced. It's already the standard.
0
Dusty water is very effective at aborting babies.
6
The text says bitter water.
And cholea litterally kills millions. Also drinking dirty water to purposefully get sick is actually a method of inducing abortion in 3rd world countries.
1
It was water mixed with dust from the temple floor.
1
My copy paste answer whenever this comes up:
Bible pasaages have been twisted to justify slavery, oppression, communism, etc. And now abortion.
That passage doesn't talk about abortion. Miscarriage and infertility was God’s punishment for adultery (it was God’s direct action as only he knows whether she cheated or not).
Numbers 5:28 - If the woman isn't defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
As a reminder,
- Abortion = humans intentionally killing other humans
- Numbers 5 = God punishing a woman for cheating
7
[deleted]
1
That passage doesn't talk about abortion. Miscarriage and infertility was God’s punishment for adultery (it was God’s direct action as only he knows whether she cheated or not).
How isn't causing a miscarriage just abortion? :l
1
may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.(Q)”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll(R) and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord(S) and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering(T) and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.(U) 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
No mention of abortion? Really?
0
Correct. No mention of abortion.
- Abortion = humans intentionally killing other humans
- Numbers 5 = God punishing a woman for cheating
3
? Can you please explain your perspective. Because this passage clearly explains the process and due payment for employing a priest to chemically induce a miscarriage. Which is an abortion. What do you think this says if not that?
1
To repeat what I already said, God is judging the woman for adultery, not the woman coming to kill her child.
2
These past couple days, I've been very aware that people think that the Bible translation known as the "New International Version" does so.
5
The NIV is the only translation that uses miscarry. I don't know why evangelicals love it so much.
5
St James Bible has it too. Most bibles. Only very recent translations omitted it. Exclusively ones translated after Christians become connected to antiabortionism.
3
Tell me more about this St James Bible.
5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
Surely you know.
1
Oh you meant the King James Bible not the St James Bible.
6
Desktop version of u/_Plastics's link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
^([)^(opt out)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
1
The King James Version (KJV), also the King James Bible (KJB) and the Authorized Version, is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England, which was commissioned in 1604 and published in 1611, by sponsorship of King James VI and I. The books of the King James Version include 39 books of the Old Testament, an intertestamental section containing 14 books of what Protestants consider the Apocrypha, and the 27 books of the New Testament. Noted for its "majesty of style", the King James Version has been described as one of the most important books in English culture and a driving force in the shaping of the English-speaking world.
^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
1
Pg.47-55 will provide a general overview. It's more nuanced that one would get with an english translation.
2
This is from 2016. There's lots of revisionist Christian thought. Who cares what they think. They have the same source material as we do and they have an agenda and they are unapologetic about that. I'm just saying what the bible says. Just read it. Its very clear. The bible has instructions how to proform abortions. How a priest is the one to do it and how much they are to be paid for this service. Read the Bible.
1
This is revisionist Christianity, this is an academic publishing. One the authors isn't even Christian. Maybe actually read it.
They have the same source material as we do
No, they can read hebrew and are experts in near-eastern culture. We are reading an english translation with a 21st century perspective.
2
This is revisionist Christianity, this is an academic publishing. One the authors isn't even Christian. Maybe actually read it.
That IS revisionism. It's recent. It's a modern interpretation. It's not the primary source. Just read the primary source. Numbers 5.
1
This is a test for unfaithfulness and not instructions for performing an abortion
2
Read it. Its like a 2 minute read. Less than 400 words.
1
I have read it.
It's. Not. Instructions. On. How. To. Perform. An. Abortion.
4
if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha of barley flour(E) on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy,(F) a reminder-offering(G) to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair(H) and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy,(I) while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.(J) 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray(K) and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse(L) not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries
What is it then?
1
What is it then?
Clearly a test for unfaithfulness.
Thanks for sharing.
2
Following those directions would not result in miscarriage unless God miraculously caused one, so it is dishonest to call the ordeal of bitter water "instructions for performing an abortion." I'm sorry that you thought you had a slam dunk.
2
Wow. First totally out of context and a poor interpretation, but let's play. I think Chistians would go along with this regarding abortions because:
- The procedure is only in cases of adultery all other "abortions" would be disallowed.
- The first stop is to see a priest. Christians would be fine with all those seeking an abortion to go to church first.
- The husband has to make an offering.
- Holy water blessed by a priest of the line of Aaron maybe hard to find and dirt from the floor of the Tabernacle is an impossibility. The Tabernacle does not exist. Whoops no more abortions.
- This ritual demands that all the parties believe in God, His divinity, His power, His wisdom. His knowledge and His judgement. So "abortion" is only for believers.
- The actual "abortion" is completely in the hands of God. It is purely up to God. I know for a fact that Christians are 100% for this.
So in real terms despite this not being an abortion in any fashion, Christians are behind this being the law.
2
I haven't made any interpretation I quoted the bible. And bitter water is the mechanism. Chemical abortion.
1
You have interpreted by making the ascertion.
It is dirt, unless you believe it is more????? Do you believe in God????? I applaud your conversion.
3
What assertion? Just read Numbers 5.
1
I would rather talk about your new found faith. Are you going to go to church now? If so do you need a suggestion?
Oh assertion. In your heading you clearly are stating the Bible speaks of abortion and then you post the verse. To come to that conclusion you have to have read the verse, interpreted it and assert it is what you claim. Pretty simple really.
Congrats again Brother or Sister as the case maybe. Welcome to the faith!!!!!
2
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll(R) and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her.
1
My mistake. Dirt and ink washed off paper. Again welcome to the first steps of belief. God bless you!!!! Another miracle!!!!
1
It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of concerns over privacy and the Open Web.
Maybe check out the canonical page instead: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-31&version=NIV
^(I'm a bot | )^(Why & About)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
1
This covers this passage pretty well
1
But I mean. You could just read the passage.
0
I have read the passage before.
I'm curious, did you watch the full video?
1
I did. I'm shocked you find it convincing.
0
Hey I watched the video. The idea that this passage can be translated to mean womb shrivelled up and falling out and 'barrenness' instead of miscarriage and abortion is not a good argument... Like at all.
-1
How is it not a good argument? (I'm legitimately curious.) And even if it weren't a good argument or if abortion/miscarriage was a good translation, it does not take away the fact that this was G-d's judgement and choice to take a life, not the woman's or a man's.
2
It wasn't God's judgement to take any life in numbers 5. It doesn't describe the taking of any life. It describes the process to preparing a poison that will induce miscarriage and ceremony of imbibing such a poison and the payment due for that service. Just read it. Its very clear. Read the Bible.
1
It wasn't God's judgement to take any life in numbers 5.
There are 2 things I want to tackle from this:
- If it was not G-d's judgement to take life in this passage, then it could not be translated as abortion or miscarriage since these involve the death of human life. (For sexually reproductive creatures, which includes humans, life for that organism begins at conception. So for there to be a miscarriage/abortion, this would mean a loss of life in the earliest stages of development.)
- Even if this passage was not G-d commanding to take life away (which from evidence of various translations, I do not believe this passage is), this does not cancel the fact that G-d has the right to judge a life's fate.
Read the Bible.
I do. And a challenging part for everyone when reading the Bible is to not read it through a current cultural lens or to read one's own desires into the Bible. It's massively important exercise exegesis and not eisegesis when reading the Bible.
2
Yes but that doesn’t mean what you think it means because someone told me or I read somewhere that the original translation used one word which has a different meaning and the culture was different then and you just don’t understand what that passage means.
I’ll DM you a 14 part video series on my Google drive account you can watch so you can better understand. Just kidding.
1
Any translation that ommits references to miscarriage in this passage are more recent translations. Ie. Revisionist.
1
The whole thing was a joke. That’s the response I see a lot when someone points out a passage that conflicts with the ideas they’ve been taught.
1
Not at all a joke. Simply find me a translation for this that supports your idea that this isn't about abortion from anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in making sure this isn't about abortion. I can point to many different versions of the bible that have numbers 5 like this and I cannot find a version that doesn't from any reputable or traditional source. Only from modern sources. Who have vested interests in the abortion debate. Can you find a reputable translation that doesn't discuss abortion?
1
“Not at all a joke. Simply find me a translation for this that supports your idea that this isn't about abortion from anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in making sure this isn't about abortion.”
Yeah, no. I said I was joking. I was giving you the response I think you’re likely to get only without sources and all kinds of mental gymnastics.
It was satire.
1
First of all who said that we now have to follow the laws, rituals,practices,instructions, customs etc mentioned in the OT which was meant for the people of those times? Jesus has freed from the old laws and we are now obliged only to follow his commandments only.He said also what are the two greatest commandments.
About abortion the well settled position of the churches is clear.Teaching no2270 and2271 of Catholic church(CCC):
Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74 God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75
1
This is Numbers 5. New Teatiment. Not old. I don't care about Catholicism. That came centuries later. I'm just saying that the Bible has instructions on how a priest is to preform abortions and the payment due for that service. And I linked the text. All well and good for the Catholics to write about abortions and their thoughts later. The New Testament says this. And it's interesting.
1
Numbers is in OT,not in New testament.Secondly the church established by Jesus conferring certain powers and privileges has divine authority and its teaching is be respected atleast above the views of individuals who often don't have the basic idea about Bible.Now if you are going to say you don't care about church,Jesus etc just don't care much about the abortion instructions in the OT.
2
About abortion the well settled position of the churches is clear.Teaching no2270 and2271 of Catholic church(CCC):
So is it just in the catechism and maybe some papal documents? So it might be as "well settled" as things like the death penalty?
1
So you are not impressed since it is 'just in the catechism' only? For your information ,church was established by Jesus himself and was given certain powers and privileges including teaching.So don't brush aside what church teaches.At any rate its teaching is far far reliable and conforming with bible than the views some individuals who are mainly armchair experts with their own preconceived notions about God and Bible.
1
I mean, if it's just in the catechism, then it's as "settled" as things like the death penalty. So who knows? Maybe in 100 years the RCC will go back to the idea that ensoulment happens later - and say that abortion is fine very early one. How do you know that they will not?
1
May be in one year you will you will turn to God.How do you know you will not? Even God has changed his plan,is it not?
1
[deleted]
1
That’s a gross distortion of the text. Even the most pro-abortion translations of it are clear that God kills the child as punishment for the parents infidelity and leaves the mother permanently infertile. None of the women being forced to undergo that ritual are there because they want an abortion. And anyway, that ritual has been impossible to perform for nearly two thousand years, so it’s irrelevant to the issue today.
1
That's the text as it reads in NIV. Litterally just the bible.
1
Yeah, and it’s not about abortion. It’s a distortion to pretend that it is.
1
Please tell me your interpretation of
"May this water, that brings a curse, enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
1
That line implies it causes a miscarriage, but that’s not the whole of the ritual is it?. I’m sure you’re aware of how misleading it is to look at a single verse out of context, so lets look at the whole passage, and I’ve got some questions for you.
-
Why did you chose the NIV translation specifically? What do you make of the fact that NO other translation says this causes a miscarriage?
-
If this ritual is to cause an abortion, why is it called (even in the NIV) ‘The Test for an Unfaithful Wife’?
-
The ritual makes no mention of the woman even having to be pregnant to undergo this ritual. What do you think would happen to an unfaithful wife who went through this ritual but wasn’t pregnant at the time? Would she pass the test?
-
Your quote says ‘May this water, that brings a curse…’ If the bible supports abortion, why is the method for achieving it described as a curse?
-
If the bible supports abortion, why does this passage end with the line ‘the woman will bear the consequences of her sin’?
-
Do you think the women who were subjected to this ritual were there voluntarily and that they had asked to have an abortion?
1
Yes. It is one major reason I do not follow man's evil ways on this issue.
1
Well, ain’t that something. Kinda makes it more clear that there’s more to meet the eye on this one.
-1
I have no opinion on the controversy itself.
But this passage certainly isn't describing an abortion.
If a man suspected unfaithfulness on his wife's part then he took her to a priest. God would then judge whether she was innocent or not. Not the priest, not the husband, nor the wife would be the judge.
If she were innocent then nothing would happen. But if she were guilty then her belly would swell and she would not be able to conceive offspring after having sworn she was innocent.
may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.(Q)”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll(R) and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord(S) and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering(T) and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.(U) 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
No mention or abortion? Really?... Really?
Good point.
The passage does describe the possible termination of human pregnancies. Which is the very definition of abortion.
It just doesn't seem like apples and oranges.
There were conditions to this. The woman was to be suspected of cheating on her husband, first off. Then God was the one performing the termination and the permanent closing of her womb.
God's not proforming the abortion in the passage or permenantly closing her womb. Where did you get this idea? Just read numbers 5.
It's Numbers 5:21 that implies this is permanent:
The expression “fall away” is understood to mean “waste away”, “shrink” or “shrivel”, and hence would suggest that the sex organs atrophied and that there was a loss of fertility and ability to conceive.
"may THE LORD cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when HE MAKES your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”