Trust distributing foreign income to bucket company scenario

I posted this on ausfinance, and didn't get many answers so hopefully posting this here with some professionals might reveal some answers. Just trying to see if the additional tax leakage I'm seeing when I'm calculating what happens to foreign income that gets distributed to(or earnt) a bucket company) is correct:

 

Trying to understand how a bucket company works with regards to a trust distributing foreign income to it and how tax effective it is or isn't. Not sure if I've calculated everything correctly, more likely than not, I've missed something crucial so am hoping someone here can help with some feedback on what I'm thinking

 

Trust A has:
$10,000 gross foreign income(eg. dividends from VTS/VEU)
$1,500 tax credit paid - FITO(foreign income tax offset)
$8,500 paid in cash to Trust A as a result of the foreign dividends.

 

Trust A distributes $10000 to Bucket Company B, along with $1,500 FITO($8,500 in cash). Tax return for Company B will show foreign assessable income of $10,000, $1,500 FITO, and based on company tax rate of 30%, total tax payable will be $3,000, so will need to pay $1,500($3,000 tax payable - $1,500 FITO) in additional tax to ATO, leaving $7,000 in cash in company bank account. The $1500 paid to ATO will be added to corporate franking account.

 

In future, to get all the money out of Company B($7000), can pay to shareholders a fully franked dividend of $3,500, along with franking credits of $1,500. As this leaves $3500 in cash in the company, this will also be paid out as unfranked dividends of $3,500.

If these franked and unfranked dividends are paid out to a shareholder(lets call this person Shareholder C) on a 30% marginal tax rate, then the total tax payable on these dividends are calculated as such:
Grossed up franked dividends = $5,000
Unfranked dividends = $3,500
Assessable Income = 8,500
Total Tax payable on Assessable Income = $2,550
Franking credits of $1,500 offsets that $2,550 figure, so $1,050 is owed to ATO from individual shareholder.

Shareholder C has received $7,000 in cash from Company B, and owes ATO $1,050, so will end up with $5,950 cash in pocket after all taxes paid.

 

If Trust A had just paid the initial foreign income distribution to Shareholder C(who is also a beneficiary of Trust A) directly, then Shareholder C will receive the following($8,500 in cash), $10,000 in assessable gross foreign income, $1,500 FITO. And since they're on 30% marginal tax rate, they would need to pay an additional $1,500 to ATO, so this leaves them with $7,000 in cash in their pocket after all taxes paid.

 

In this scenario, it seems like its much better to just distribute the foreign income to shareholder C directly as they end up with more cash after tax($7,000 vs $5,950), primarily because even though the FITO does lessen the tax burden to the company, it doesn't carry across as franking credits to the shareholder, so the foreign income effectively gets taxed twice. Did I miss something somewhere or calculate something incorrectly? I understand that the bucket company can hold the funds indefinitely until the shareholder is in a lower tax bracket and maybe reap the benefits of less tax then, but if this is not due to happen for 10-20 years or may never happen, isn’t it better to just distribute the full amount to the individual right from the start as they’ll both(bucket company and individual shareholder) have the same amount of after-tax cash to invest/spend ie. $7,000?

EDIT: here's a hopefully easier to read table(adapted from another comment someone helpfully made on a related post)

Direct to individualVia company
VTS net foreign income8,5008,500
FITO1,5001,500
Taxable income10,00010,000
Tax at 30%3,0003,000
Less FITO-1,500-1,500
Tax (frk cr for co)1,5001,500
Dividend (from company-7,000
Franking credit-1,500
Taxable income-8,500
Tax at 30% MTR-2,550
Less franking credits--1,500
Tax at individual level-1,050 
Net economic benefit to the groupDirect to individualVia company
Tax paid by the individual-1,500-1,050
Tax paid by company-1,500
Net economic benefit7,0005,950
Net foreign income received by the group8,5008,500

Posted Jun 17, 2022, 6:04 AM UTC · edited

321
Luxim_•

You're not getting responses because what you have written is barely legible.

9
ghostdunksOP•

Apologies but I don’t know how to make it any clearer. I know it reads like gibberish and “tax talk” to the uninitiated but surely professional accountants here would understand what I’m trying to convey from a tax planning point of view. I’ve tried to break down the question into logical parts and paragraphs with clear numbers and calculations.

It basically boils down to whether or not the fact that FITOs, while lessening the tax burden for the corporate entity, doesn’t carry over as franking credits to the ultimate shareholder and by doing that, effectively acts as a double tax on that foreign income.

I’m assuming that this has come up as potential questions posed to tax accountants trying to plan their clients’ upcoming trust distribution resolutions effectively for the financial year.

0

Take it to an accountant dude. Accountants shouldn't have to go into this level of detail, for free.

What you are asking, is essentially asking for free tax planning and structure advice.

Have some respect for the profession and pay someone to do it properly. Atleast you know it's more reliable then to.

7
ghostdunksOP•

I’m already in discussions with my tax accountant, but he’s not great for tax planning and structuring in general. Most of the tax stuff I implement is stuff I’ve researched myself or heard about and have brought it to him to ratify and confirm if it’s legal or grey, etc.

That’s fine if no one here wants to answer for free, I thought it was a basic enough question that someone could shed some light on without needing to go into too much detail. I’m perfectly happy to pay for advice but I would like to know what I’m getting first. With the amount of conflicting advice given by different accountants, there is no guarantee that any advice is “correct” which is why I’m asking for general opinions on the matter.

-1
FI-RE_wombat•

I stopped when I got to large numbers without commas. Add some commas for goodness sake!

Also, talk this through directly with your accountant.

4
ghostdunksOP•

Sorry about that, I actually find large numbers with commas distracting myself so I left them out, but I've put some commas in there now to hopefully make it easier to read. Thanks for feedback! I also put the figures in a table, hopefully making it easier to visualize rather than the wall of text

And yes, I'm definitely running this past my accountant, but as mentioned elsewhere, he's generally not great with more "complex" tax planning strategies so I wanted to make sure I go to him with some clear examples and justifications.

0
BSPLCS•

looks right apart from the weird structure. This is comparable to a capital gain distributed to a company that is not eligible to capital gain discount, whereas an individual will receive a discount.

2
ghostdunksOP•

Thanks for the feedback, its as I suspected then. Funnelling foreign income through a company seems to have an after-tax downside, similar to funnelling capitals gains through it as well. Was really hoping I had missed something.

Also, what did you mean by the "weird structure"? I would have thought that distributing excess income from a trust into a bucket company was relatively straightforward structure? Or you meant something different?

1
Bolgersoldier•

Your calculations are correct but you are making an assumption that is unlikely to hold true.

FITO has a calculation to determine how much can be used. If the amount is under $1000 you can always use it all, if it is over you need to follow these steps.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Forms/Guide-to-foreign-income-tax-offset-rules-2021/?page=3

This will change the outcome but what you have discovered is inefficient streaming of income.

You could also bring in CFC rules and pass through foreign income but that is far too complex for your query. Also, not really relevant.

2
ghostdunksOP•

Yeah I didn’t want to complicate the already convoluted example by bringing the foreign income tax offset limit into it but I’ve accounted for it already, and the offset limit doesn’t impact the tax situation for either the company or the individual taxpayer.

And yes, definitely does look like a case of inefficient streaming of a particular income type. Was really hoping that I missed something(what I don’t know, I don’t know) but looks like the numbers bear it out

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated

1
Shukumugo•

You're pretty spot on, but a 30% rate for individuals isn't really realistic depending on what other types of assessable income they may or may not have.

If their total income including the foreign distribution is <18k (well effectively about 23k after applying LITO and or LMITO to their tax liability), then their tax would be zero. Successive marginal tax rates would be 19%, 32.5%, 37%, 45%, plus additional 2% ML.

I believe distributing foreign income, or any other type of income to individuals starts to get a bit ineffective tax-wise for earners in the higher brackets. The whole purpose of the bucket company is to shelter individuals from higher tax rates while having the ability to set the timing on distributions aka dividends. Ie if you can pay yourself a dividend from the company when you expect to have a lower tax rate, or if the shareholder of your bucket company is another family trust, you can re-distribute the dividend income to a spouse on a lower bracket etc etc.

You obviously wouldn't have the same flexibility having a structure with a single trust and no bucket company. Caveat emptor being that the trust must pay the distribution to the company by the company's tax return due date in order not to trigger any Division 7A issues.

2
ghostdunksOP•

It was the very helpful discussion I had with you a few months ago about franking accounts that prompted this post actually :) you posted the table that summarizes my wall of text much better visually.

And yes thanks for the reminder about the tax rates, I just used a flat 30% for easy comparison of the numbers with different distribution strategies, apples with apples, etc. Especially since it looks like the govt is flattening the tax rates a bit in a few years so there’s a big band of 30% MTR for <200k. If we use the current tax rates that you posted, then it’s only at the top tax rates of 37% and 45%(+ML) where streaming foreign income with FITOs to bucket company will come out ahead in the end. Otherwise the foreign income getting effectively double-taxed means that we have to account for the additional taxation when it gets distributed to the ultimate shareholder/beneficiary

2
Shukumugo•

Oh wow no wonder why it seemed familiar!

2
the_dutch_rudder•

If your trust owns the shares in the bucket company just pay an unfranked divi whenever it suits, stream to whoever, find some relation who’s over 18 with no taxable income

1
BLACKSCALE00•

S100A will possibly restrict this practice unless the economic benefit is actually transferred to the beneficiary. So I would be highly cautious doing this - just my 2 cents ofc.

1
the_dutch_rudder•

I wouldn’t think three grand would raise any eyebrows. An 18 year old with a $180k distribution on the other hand…

1
the_dutch_rudder•

I wouldn’t think three grand would raise any eyebrows. An 18 year old with a $180k distribution on the other hand…

1
the_dutch_rudder•

I wouldn’t think three grand would raise any eyebrows. An 18 year old with a $180k distribution on the other hand…

1
BLACKSCALE00•

Secondary thought is what you are doing with the $10k distribution, if it’s going to be spent then yes, direct distribution from trust to individual may be best but if you’re looking to have this amount re-invested, you may benefit to have this sit in the company to utilise the capped tax rate.

Note that 2025FY tax rates should be at 30% until $200k taxable income.

Also please review your family trust election and your trust deed to ensure that is written correctly for recognition of income, streaming, franking credits etc (accountant should review this)

1
ghostdunksOP•

if it’s going to be spent then yes, direct distribution from trust to individual may be best but if you’re looking to have this amount re-invested, you may benefit to have this sit in the company to utilise the capped tax rate.

I think that’s the issue I’m trying to resolve. If my calculations and assumptions regarding how foreign income is handled within the bucket company is correct, then even if the amount we are talking about(the $10k foreign income distribution) is to be re-invested, then I still don’t see the point of having it sit in the company if the shareholder has a similar tax rate ie. 30%.

If the trust distributes it directly to the individual, they end up with $7k to invest. If trust distributes to the bucket company, the company ends up with $7k to invest. So both have same amount to invest. However, if we ever want to pull the money out of the company, there’s an additional tax to be paid because of the lack of franking credits associated with part of the dividend. So the investment with the same starting amount($7k) would have to make X% more return in the hands of the company just to end up with the same after-tax result compared to if just invested in the individual’s name instead of the company. What’s the benefit of having it sit in the company instead of with the individual beneficiary/shareholder if the tax rates are comparable, regardless of the proposed use of the $10k distribution?

1
BLACKSCALE00•

Asset protection may benefit you regardless of what your income is or what industry you work in. Obviously may not be relevant if you just work a normal salary and wages job.

However the bucket company is to utilise the capped tax rate, so it’s benefits are only really utilised if you’re individual income is going to be in the top tax bracket of 47%.

Yes you have been correct about the possibility of double taxation but what if you pullout $25k but then directly put it in super for the deduction? Therefore now you haven’t been double taxed and you have $25k earning income being taxed at 15% rather than 30%.

1