r/Healthygamergg•
citus334

A reminder that this community is doing extremely well in helping toxic demographics online

This is my personal take about gender wars stuff here.

I honestly think this community is leagues ahead in healing all demographics of it

I have been around for decades on the internet. I remember back in the day when misogyny, racism and homophobia was the norm. We have come a long way.

Still a lot of work to be done and the internet although slow it's getting somewhere.

With Online communities and the gender wars. it usually slides to one side of the spectrum trying to validate one side and demonises the other.

But this is the only community that I know that has really helped me learn about both sides, addresses them and really helped learn about the other perspectives.

This is the only community where I can find validation of suffering of the Male side of the equationa and also here about women's perspectives in suffering misogyny.

It's not that I've never heard of said perspectives, it's just surprising to see them being validated in the same community.

Dr K tries his best in fostering empathy in both sides and personally it's an unprecedented level of learning , healing and understanding after watching the new video about female loneliness

I hope it does not come off as insensitive and I hope we can find some much needed help for each other here. Also please help point any inaccuracies from my perspective if it ever sounds like it.

Posted Aug 11, 2022, 12:28 AM UTC

13535
sugarr_boyy•

This sub needs moderation so bad people talking about their problems shouldn't labeled as mysogyny automatically there is no gender wars anywhere just people talking about stuff you guys got into that gender propaganda so bad whenever you see something about it y'all just get offended truly a reddit moment

19
SuperGaiden•

Exactly.

If someone is coming to you acknowledging that they have mental health issues and are sexist etc as a result, you're there to help them, not to shame them.

Like Rule 1 of therapy/counselling is to be non-judgemental and understand WHY the person feels that way, not have a knee jerk reaction to something they said.

11
itsdr00•

Agreed, the moderation here is way too light. I've moderated support communities before and you just can't let people get away with the shit they pull here. It's one thing to encourage engagement with toxic ideas, but I think one of the most obnoxious things about the ongoing debate here is that people keep talking past the wide, reasonable middle and rant at the fringes, but in a way that sounds like they're ranting at the entire other side. And when you point that out to people, they respond -- rightfully! -- that the fringe is here and they need to be confronted. This is what happens when you let actual misogyny exist alongside guys trying to work through difficult feelings about women, and when you let actual misandry exist alongside women just trying to work through difficult feelings about men.

I presume the moderation policy here is to open up dialog with the fringes in hopes it'll lead to healing, but it's coming at the expense of the most reasonable 90% of people who come here. The space becomes less usable, people leave, but the fringes remain and things just get worse.

2
AlternativeFriend780•

u/KAtusm so much this. When you start making improvements due to the guide + coaching, ironically this community loses the appeal of a place where you would want to continue to improve in. People are too quick to find something someone said to antagonize and dogpile and the battlelines are drawn over it.

2
-ItsCrazyOutHere-•

I don't think a heavily moderated community would help at all. It would just limit or throw out the people who need the most help. Part of a good community is letting people have a good level of freedom of speech. Sure there are some people who troll, but it's ultimately your choice or someone else's whether or not to engage in a dialogue with them. I've seen heavily modded communities and it doesn't get better, it's pretty bad and sad to see.

Those communities become true echo chambers and also heavily limit your speech, as well as the topics you can bring up. The uniqueness of this community is how open it is, which of course comes at a cost. If you ramp up the moderation here, this community would become a true echo chamber which would polarize and disconnect this community from a lot of people.

Most people forget that even having the freedom for toxic people to be in community is helpful in being able to let people see what could be sounding like 😅. One person who's recovering and has similar ideals as the toxic person could see what they're saying and realize that they sound like that. Which could make them want to change even more.

I understand where you're coming from but there's a reason why this community is so cool. Like Dr. K has said we welcome anyone and everyone.

1
itsdr00•

I think you've imagined an opposite extreme. I'm not suggesting that; I'm suggesting a pull back from "totally open" to "mostly open." And in my experience, it makes a much better community.

0
-ItsCrazyOutHere-•

I haven't imagined anything, I'm just explaining what I've seen from my perspective with communities that started with your idea of needing more moderation. Overall if you look at the post's in the community they're not filled with that many extreme toxic people. If anything it's the opposite. I'm not saying that there aren't people who just vent their thoughts out and that it can be hard for others to hear. Nobody needs to read or engage with every post or evey comment. Once you start restricting, you kick out or block out people who may actually need help and would benefit from the community.

2
Miguel33Angel•

For anyone who wants to be on a subreddit where men's problems are also viewed and understood, I would recommend checking communities like r/MensLib or youtube channels as the one from Noah Samsen.

​

Also, to get some good commentary about incel culture, and how it can lead you to unfulfilling relationships and a sense of void, even when you "get women" there's a 2-hour video of Macabre Storytelling, called Male Dating & Sex struggles, which deeps dive in the issues of the red pill community, while also giving himself that healthy advice, without all the mysogeny

9
OK_Mr•

here's a 2-hour video of Macabre Storytelling, called Male Dating & Sex struggles, which deeps dive in the issues of the red pill community, while also giving himself that healthy advice, without all the mysogeny

Great video.

Although he doesn't only show the issues with the red pill community, but also with the communities aimed against. Essentially; one gives a terrible ideology disguised as advice, and the other only attacks the red pill community without looking to help and understand the struggles of lonely men.

6
None0fYour8usiness•

I'm curious about that vid, gonna check it out when I get time.

3
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1
Motion_Ocean_48•

Is there any data or proof of this getting better or is this more a gut feeling lol.

1†
[deleted]•

[deleted]

15
Motion_Ocean_48•

Yeah lol. Something that would be substantial at least.

-5
c0l0r51•

Well, the sheer size and cultural impact of this community on the twitch community was unthinkable 10 years ago.

5
itsdr00•

If you wait for science to arrive before drawing conclusions about sociology and human psychology, you're going to be waiting for a long, long time. People are very hard to study.

2
citus334OP•

Anecdotal.

10
whatusernameforever•

Yes! I feel so safe in this community. Its so much more nuanced and compassionate compared to most spaces especially online. I feel very uncomfortable about gender wars because I relate to both "masculine "and "feminine" issues.

1
Solid-Surround-996•

Really? I think it does a bad job at addressing male issues. I don't think it's the right place for lonely males.

-3†
Average-PKP-Enjoyer•

Why do you think it does a bad job at addressing male issues?

What male issues specifically do you think HG needs to be covered?

11
Solid-Surround-996•

I will have to right an entire post on that. Not today.

4
Average-PKP-Enjoyer•

Cool cool.

I just think there is more underneath than your belief of "Dr. K not covering enough male issues." but that's not something I can or should answer. :)

6
apexjnr•

It'll be a useful post, i'd read it if you make it.

1
citus334OP•

This and destiny is literally the only healthy male alternative except the Manosphere. These two sources actually provide solutions and advice.

10
123xslash•

Destiny is a dipshit.

0
Solid-Surround-996•

I think the unhealthy ones has better advice than here because at least it isn't dishonest. Everytime a men post about how he's a virgin, there will be woman who will complain that they feel objectified. Unfortunately, all it does is push these lonely man away.

Also a lot of women also preach that dating is hard for everyone and that they suffer from loneliness which is just not helpful at all. I'm not saying they shouldn't post about their perspective, but it doesn't do anything at all tbh.

Some of the redpill advice is good if you separate it from the misogyny tbh. Like being stoic, take care of your body, workout, make friends with more woman so that you get used to talk to woman, being competent man. If we're telling guys to go out there and put the work but that doesn't guarantee they will get a relationship it's way better advice.

In my opinion, a lot of advice also lacks a level of realistic expectations. A lot of people tell men to just go out there and compliment women but ignore the fact that a lot of people will judge him for how he look and it sucks but it;s important to say that because at least they will know what to expect.

-8
Maleficent_Load6709•

I agree that some advice like improving your habits and being more healthy that is occasionally given in the manosphere *can¨* be positive if you subtract it from its context. However, that's surface-level advice that you can literally get anywhere else.

As someone who struggled with relationships and almost fell into the manosphere pipeline, I can tell from my experience that, in the context in which the manosphere advice is given, it makes things much worse in the long run.

Manosphere content, in my experience, isn't made to help you, but to actually make you more insecure. Advice such as working out, making friends with women, and improving your habits is good on its own, but if the discourse supporting it is false pseudo-scientific concepts like hypergamy, a shallow and toxic values system that says only "alpha males (rich, handsome, powerful, famous)" are desirable, and some twisted biological determinism that attributes every male-female interaction to some social darwinist nonsense, then it's not really any good.

They don't tell you to work out and improve your habits because it's healthy, but because supposedly it's the only way to become an alpha male and get money, and being an alpha male is the only way to get a woman because supposedly women are biologically programmed to only like this strict model of alpha male.

In short, the more insecure you are for not being a rich, handsome, hypermasculine alpha male, the more of their content you will consume in the hopes that they help you reach this impossible ideal.

In my experience though, even if you get closer to that ideal, the best it can get you will be in either casual relations or toxic ones. They won't help you accept yourself for who you are and become genuinely more secure at an internal level, let alone achieve the emotional maturity to get into a relationship of mutual respect. Because none of that will get them views or money. They will tell you to be "stoic" which is another word, in that context, to suppress and swallow your emotions because expressing them is girly or weak or something, which is toxic as hell.

A community like this one, where all views are to some degree accepted but also questioned, contended, and discussed is much better IMO.

15
Erynnien•

I agree. It's not unimportant in which context information is given. If one listens to enough of this stuff, they will start to believe it, even if it's utter nonsense. Then recency bias sets in and they see this or that thing happening everywhere and their brain selectively ignores anything contradictory to those fresh new beliefs. It's nothing new. That's one thing.

The other is the lack of logic behind following the manosphere. Like, it's made up of dudes that have made no or bad experiences in dating/sex/relationships. And these dudes are giving eachother advice on dating/sex/relationships. Like, they don't know how to do it well. If they did, they wouldn't be swimming in this boiling brew of collective misery that the manosphere is. Their advice is only going to make you enter the same state they're in - lonely and angry.

3
person_not_found•

The reason why women 'complain' about these things is because their side of the story is completely ignored. You have to keep in mind that (heteronormative) dating requires both genders to agree with eachother. So when a guy comes in and says "I'm a 30 year old virgin and I want to have sex so bad" then yes, women will feel objectified. A woman's needs in a relationship will be vastly different from a man's. A lot of that has to do with societal expectations we place on the genders (which is something I've learned simply by lurking in this sub).

You say that most of the dating advice is unrealistic for men. I disagree there. I think that most dating advice is incomplete. A lot of advice focuses on a very specific aspect of a particular person in a particular stage in life.while the advice might be good, the person will still be left wondering "okay, then what?" But the big issue here is that there isn't one clear cut way to be successful in dating, because everyone is different. So you often times have to figure it out for yourself, which means you have to allow criticism from outside sources.

This brings me to the red pill community. Because a lot of men haven't got a clue on how to get a gf, so they turn to the red pill community for advice. And all it does is confirm their pre-exisiting suspicions. But then those same men come here and notice that their confirmed biases are now being scrutinized. Suddenly they feel attacked and they claim that this sub is hostile towards men.

Now, in defence of the red pill community, I do indeed see some hostility from this sub. Often times their beliefs are attacked and scrutinized, but they're not offered empathy. And this is exactly what is driving these people away from this sub.

5
OK_Mr•

but they're not offered empathy

That is the main problem.

When someone says "I'm a 30 year old virgin and I want to have sex so bad", the reaction should be to address the person's pov on life. Why does he think he needs it so bad? Would he like something else? etc. etc.

The problem is that when posts like that come into this subreddit they are met with a lot of comments invalidating that person's suffering. "Oh, but I feel objectified/offended with your comments and ideology" is very invalidating for the man with the skewed worldview. In fact, it does not help to change the worldview into a more healthy one. The guy will only learn that he can't say what he trully feels in this community because it hurts people AND because he gets attacked for expressing himself.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

-1†
Solid-Surround-996•

facts

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Miguel33Angel•

You're probably not doing a favour, because enough people challenge their problems, and it may seem as insensitive, or that you lack empathy.

​

If you want to really know woman issues, you shouldn't come from a place of challenge but from a place of understanding

2
None0fYour8usiness•

Based

2
THE_oldy•

You could do a lot worse than here

9
citus334OP•

Andrew Tate has hustle university that makes people rich lmao

0