r/fuckepic•
prerrff

For Real, Fuck Unreal

My Epic Experience

(Apologies in advance, but this is loooooooooooooong, so grab some popcorn if you're interested in a novel)

For all the shit Epic Games gets from this sub, I don't see anyone give criticism to the Unreal Engine. Could it be true that it's this diamond in the rough, good enough to redeem Epic Games, or is it that anyone who knows Epic Games well enough simply knows to stay away from it?

Well, recently through a series of unfortunate real life events, I found myself in the position of having to use the Unreal Engine for a week, and GOD do I need to rant about this.

Guess what? The only way you can even get Unreal Engine is through the Epic Games Launcher. You can't even download from the website! To people unfamiliar with this sub, this might not seem like a big deal, but the Epic Games Launcher has pretty much been proven to be full of spyware, affects your computer's performance, and its malware sticks around even after you've uninstalled EGS, and is pretty much impossible to get rid of, short of reinstalling windows. After Googling around, I came across some Epic fans/employees saying that Unreal Engine is available on Github, but really... it's just not. First, you need to have an Epic Games account (you've kind of already lost at that point), a Github account, and link them to each other, then you get an email that links you to find out that it's an old version of Unreal! It's UE4! Still interested? Don't worry - you won't be when you find out that once you download it, all you get is god... damn... SOURCE FILES!

I looked around on this, and I found out there's apparently a way to "fork" the source files back into being an application, but to do that you need to download something called "git". I didn't even try this: I was told Unreal Engine was available on Github, but it was an old version, it was only for people with Epic Games accounts, and it's not even in a usable state. That's pretty much 3 lies in 1 and it's before you've even downloaded it. At this point, the writing's on the wall that Epic are going to make your life as hard as possible for not downloading their precious launcher, and this mythical Github release is just a carrot on a stick. Holy shit, why does Epic Games need to make everything as hard as possible for their consumers? You know how to download Blender? You go to the website, and click the download button! It's a miraculously simple process for both the consumers and the company! It's almost like people don't like to go through hell just to not get spied on! Imagine that! Next time you hear someone say Unreal Engine is on Github, do me a favour and call them a twat!

Maybe Epic Games fans could defend this by saying you likewise need to download Steam to get Source Filmmaker, but here's the thing, Steam doesn't come with intrusive malware! And it actually performs well and doesn't turn your computer to sawdust for trying to do the most basic thing! And it's not a 4-hour download!

edit A ton of people in the comments have pointed out to me that this procedure is standard practice on Github and this is a bad point. I'm willing to admit that this is my first time using Github and I screwed up here, but at the end of the day, Unreal Engine has a dedicated website. There's no good reason they can't host a download on their own website, and don't tell me that Epic Games doesn't have the money to host the server for it! It's so frustrating thumbing through page after page of why Unreal is the best thing ever, only to be met at the end with "wait, you actually want to download it? Uuuuh, we don't really do that, we're only its dedicated website. go see Epic Games about that."

In the end, I decided to create a system restore point on my PC, and at the end of my time with Unreal, I'd back up any files I'd saved since then and take my PC back to the system restore point.

If you're in a similar situation to me, and for some ungodly reason need to use Unreal for something but don't want to install the Epic Games Launcher - here. That's a link to a Google Drive folder I made where you can download the Unreal installer without needing the Epic Games Launcher. I can't guarantee Unreal itself won't install anything shady, but at least you won't need to download the Epic Games Launcher for it and will hopefully avoid the spyware that comes with it. I've just saved you from wasting the ENTIRE DAY of fruitless searching I wasted trying to find that exact file before giving up. May you have a less frustrating time with it than I did! And to Epic Games, I would say I just did your job for you, but your job isn't really to give/sell people software, it's to spy on customers, sell their information to whoever wants to buy it, maybe give it to the Chinese government, and do everything in your power to spite Valve like a crazy ex-girlfriend.

Upon installing Unreal Engine, you may notice it takes a long time to install. That's because the final entire folder of Unreal Engine is 114 GB. That's right, ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTEEEN GIGABYTES! Just for reference, it's main competition is Unity, which is 4.64 GB. Source Filmmaker is 2 GB. Blender is less than one gigabyte. Is Epic Games that badly optimised or is Unreal just 96% bloatware/spyware? You know Skyrim? Well, Unreal is about 8 Skyrims worth of memory! I started to experience worse PC performance almost immediately after installing it.

Bear in mind, all of this is literally before I've even opened Unreal Engine. Every time I do open it, I'm immediately greeted with a window saying my GPU is out of date for Unreal. Most functions still work if I ignore it, and it's not a big deal, but this is a computer that has run the Adobe suite, Blender, Maya, 3DSMax, and Unity no problem. If it struggles to run Unreal, maybe it's not my computer that's the problem... The computers that helped put man on the moon couldn't run Unreal.

Oh, and before I forget, I googled to see if Unreal Engine would still work without the Epic Games Launcher, and saw a few Epic fans/employees saying it's not recommended, and everyone else saying Unreal still works fine without EGL. I deleted the launcher, and yes I can confirm, it works without the launcher just fine. In other words, locking Unreal Engine behind the Epic Games Launcher is a completely arbitrary decision. Unreal Engine 1 is exactly 20 years older than the Epic Games Store, so this was clearly not always the case. I wonder if people will start to move away from Unreal if Epic keep getting more and more aggressive with shoving their shitty malware on everyone?

If you're wondering whether Unreal Engine actually functions as a modelling/texturing/game engine, then... yeah, it works fine. Most things are intuitive enough for people who have used 3D software before, and if anything's not clear there's loads of tutorials all over the internet. That being said, I don't see any fancy functions that justify Unreal's reputation as being so much better and more professional than Unity and Unity as this toy for indies and hobbyists comparatively. Unreal has this fancy new lighting system called Lumen, but apparently my GPU wasn't good enough for it. One thing's for sure, I DEFINITELY don't see anything in it that justifies a 114GB download, plus the Epic Games Launcher and its associated bloatware.

To anyone who's been on this sub for a while, you already know that Epic Games pull anti-consumer practices and this is nothing new. Rocket League's been taken off Steam, and Fall Guys is too. However, even despite ALL that, at VERY LEAST you could say that those are just video games. If you don't like it, there's nothing to stop you from picking up a Switch instead, but when it comes to Unreal, this is a level of disgusting that makes Fall Guys and Rocket League look like saints. This is a game engine - developers rely on this for their jobs and careers, and they're being so buggered around by Epic's aggressive exclusivity, false advertising, hypocrisy, weaponization of their products, privacy breaches, and general lack of care for their consumers.

I guess I want to finish this by saying that Unity's come under a lot of fire for partnering with a literal malware company and announcing they want a piece of the cake of anyone who makes games using Unity. Imagine being an artist, buying paint from a guy, and when you've finished your painting the paint salesman thinks you owe him extra money for it. If they actually follow through with this, I'll be disappointed, but I wouldn't say Epic Games are above this kind of behaviour. As it stands, I'd say the fact that they're comparable should be an insult to both of them. It's easy to think that there's a grim future ahead for indie game devs, but I say look no further than Source 2 and Godot! You may need to learn them from scratch, but it's better than clinging to Unreal in its current state!

TLDR: I had to use Unreal Engine, and I don't get the excitement about it. You artificially need the Epic Games Launcher to download it, it's a 114GB download, it takes 4 hours at least, it thinks it's too good for most GPUs, and it's Epic Games so fuck it.

Posted Aug 18, 2022, 12:42 AM UTC · edited

21164
Doookkie•

Valid post, but it's very common for git sites like GitHub to require you to use git.

129
TheHighGroundwins•

This guy clearly has no experience in programming. Every programmer has git it's an essential tool.

8
prerrffOP•

Cheers, and yeah, this is moreso a rant for me to blow off some steam than any kind of expert technical opinion

4
BleuGamer•

I’m someone that uses unreal engine daily.

First, anyone that does any amount of coding above single file scripts uses some kind of version control. Git is by far the industry standard, and I use it for all of my projects. Knowing Git is nearly a requirement for being in software engineering at all.

Second, every UE4/5 release on unreal engine has a corresponding tag in the GitHub, and you absolutely do not need the EGS other than to download store plugins or files.

git checkout tags/5.0.3-release

Third, an engine is just that, an engine. A monolithic collection of tools and assets for creating dynamic software, mostly games. It has its advantages, and disadvantages, just as unity and Godot.

I generally point new devs towards Unity, but I’ve been enjoying godot more and more. Unreal engine has some very nice default systems and Niagara is really amazing once you understand it (don’t forget to warm your particles during loading).

It’s all subjective and you can do just about anything you want with any engine, and as much as I hate EGS, I have to give credit where it’s due as Unreal Engine cracked the industry wide open as a whole. Even Cry-engine, Crytechs ages old proprietary monolith, got open sourced under the pressure.

67
BigToe7133•

First, anyone that does any amount of coding above single file scripts uses some kind of version control. Git is by far the industry standard, and I use it for all of my projects. Knowing Git is nearly a requirement for being in software engineering at all.

This.

I have no idea what OP is trying to do with UE5, but their rant about Git and not knowing what to do with a source code make it sound like UE5 is not the correct tool for them.

45
NovaTedd•

Also, what's up with UE's file size? If they're installing EVERYTHING then it's prone to be that size, if he got the epic launcher then he'd be able to choose which parts of the engine they'd want to install.

This post just gives me heavy "I picked this up from the floor instead of the super market and it smells bad!" vibes.

14
BleuGamer•

When you compile yourself you’re also going to get all of the files, particularly the debugging symbols. All the things that are optional on the epic launcher get built.

My largest working copy is ~450GB with cross platform executables that I cross compiled. This was expected and normal to me, but not for someone that’s never worked in a code base this large.

You don’t need the full source unless you’re doing special things, but I constantly modify the engine to the needs of the project so I eat the storage.

Example: I needed t bake AVX2 compiler flags into the build process for a specific plugin so I modified UBT to accommodate me.

5
prerrffOP•

I'll be the first to admit I'm a total beginner to using game engines and Github. Ultimately, the point of my rant here is "why can't they just let me download it from their website?" which I think is still a valid point, especially with Unity, Adobe, Blender, and Maya being so easy in comparison.

-3†
BleuGamer•

The epic launcher existed looooong before they decided to put a store front on it. It used to only be unreal engine.

In this regard it still has its own exclusive corner of the epic launcher so I personally don’t mind it, and I never ever ever interact with the games store front under any circumstances.

Also if you’re a complete beginner, downloading ue through the launcher allows you to only grab the base engine files if you just want to work with blueprints ~50GB I think. UE5 is still wonderful for beginners it just takes a bit more persistence to learn it.

11
prerrffOP•

Thanks, you've been a lot more patient and supportive than many other people!

2
BleuGamer•

I mean, I’m just stating information without putting emotion into it.

Frankly it seems like you should spend some more time in software development before you try something as heavy as UE, or at least learn the bare fundamentals of the industry. You came off as someone that became distraught after a cursory research phase and became frustrated after not immediately finding the answers you wanted while not knowing the questions you should be asking.

I’m passionate about software engineering so I want you to succeed, it just seems like you don’t really know where to start but immediately found a hill to die on.

1
UraniumSavage•

Thanks for sharing.

I work for a utility that produces, transmits and distributes electrical power. We had a chemical vendor say that if they help us produce a couple more mega watts that they would like to "own" a piece of the improved production. They were laughed at,l and told if they ask again we'd find another supplier. That being said, if unity pulled that shit, another supplier would be born and rise to success...

59
BigToe7133•

That being said, if unity pulled that shit, another supplier would be born and rise to success...

That could happen soon, between the CEO calling many of his customers "fucking idiots", and the merger announced 1 month ago with Ironsource, a company that produces malware.

16
prerrffOP•

No worries, and yeah, with Godot and Source 2, it's good to know that people have alternatives!

13
PM_ME_OPPAI:evil_sweeney: Evil Sweeney•

Source 2

We in 2022, and this dude runnin in 2032.

21
deanrihpee:linux: Linux Gamer•

Well, there's actually Source 2 moddable/customizable "game" called S&box developed by people who create Garry's Mod and Rust, currently, it is in close beta IIRC but it is Source 2, directly from Valve, but not so pure Source 2, so when it is released, you might be able to taste what Source 2 feels like.

2
RandomValue134•

source files

git

... you... know what github is... Right?

39
Mediocre-Meerkat:Epic_Games:Will use children to fight PR Battles•

yeah i was like... my guy that's like how all open source programming and design apps work. Godot has the uncompiled source code out on the internet and it has the compiled app too. You just have to look for the release version

5
RandomValue134•

Dude probably doesn't know what "open-source" means, since he complained about it. He said "this is an engine developers rely on for their jobs" and doesn't know how github works.

Dude, I literally just googled how big UE5 is and found "UE5 is only 32gb"... Then why is he complaining about the source code being 100+gb??? Dude thinks that the engine has the same size as the source code. "poorly optimized" How tf do you optimize THE SOURCE FILES?????

When I make a piece of software in (for example) C# and the project files are above 100gb, how big would the compiled shit be? It will be FUCKING 30GB, BECAUSE IT'S COMPILED.

Size of the source code won't be the size of the software.

TLDR: OP has probably no f-ing clue how programming works, what open-source software is and what compiling does. Complains about the source code being above 100gb, while that isn't a bad thing for such advanced engine, which is actually 30gb.

6
Luciferian_Towers•

Not only that, but the only reason anyone would normally download the engine's source code is to be able to modify it. Not to avoid getting the binaries.

It's like buying flour, eggs, butter and baking powder from the grocerie store and then complaining that they force you to cook your own cake, and that the package is weirdly splitted.

3
RandomValue134•

Not just that. There are contributors online and developers at epic games, using github to make their job easier.

Using github for a job is like working on a school project.

The same applies to using the engine. He thought that people who rely on it for their jobs are in constant frustration... but from my experience with UE4, the engine makes everything so eazy. Collision checks? Built in. You don't have to worry about it here.

I used to use unreal engine before they turned the engine's launcher into the epic games store. The launcher had actually no games except fortnite. It used to be all just modding and development tools for unreal. OP doesn't know that tho. He's complaining that you have to use the epic games launcher, yet epic games launcher literally used to be the unreal engine launcher, so for a lot of people nothing changed in terms of workflow. If unity decided to sell games, they can just turn unity hub into Unity Store Launcher and nothing changes for developers.

3
RasmaPlasma:steam: Steam•

I hate epic and their shady business practices just as much as the next guy, but this post is just flat out stupid.

27
Rafo2006:epig:Breaks TOS, will sue•

“I don’t know how to use Git so that means it’s stupid”

17
TheHighGroundwins•

This guy complaining about the filesize and git is hilarious.

2
gentleman_oni•

Weird timeline we're living where it's easier to download the unreal engine 5 editor for Linux than for Windows. (specially since I know Tim Sweeney doesn't like Linux at all)

But yeah, I'll stick to Godot, tyvm.

26
williamjcm59:epic_account_deleted: Epic Account Deleted•

Honestly, while I liked UE4 at first, my opinion of it degraded more and more.

Remember Unity's reputation of being a lazy dev's engine, back in the early 10s ? Well, UE is the one getting it, thanks to its default settings most developers don't even care about changing, even in the higher-budget studios.

Most UE4 games today use the default lighting (which is the most generic of realistic lighting systems), anti-aliasing (shitty TAA full of blurring and ghosting), input system (which has some of the worst input delay I've ever seen, especially on consoles like the Switch), plugins (I've seen my fair share of non-VR UE games that launched SteamVR because the VR plugins are enabled by default on all projects), etc...

So, yeah, I'm fucking tired of that engine nowadays.

24
PM_ME_GPU_PICS•

TLDR: OP failed to read the instructions, is wrong just about everything except the file size.

OP expected that a noob with 0 experience in software development or game development would be able to just pick up unreal engine and use it fluently.

The comparison with a 20 year old game engine only needing a few gigabytes is funny too!

24
NovaTedd•

Why would he even compare a game engine with debugging symbols that take dozens of gigs to blender? Lol

11
DaEnderAssassin•

Always forget blender has a game engine in it.

1
ThereIsNoGame•

The ideal fantasy would be for Epic to divest Unreal to some business that can manage it properly without trying to turn it into a trojan.

The problem is the lack of alternatives. While Amazon demonstrated their CryEngine fork, Lumberyard, works fine for gaming, it's too tightly integrated in AWS and that scares off developers.

CryEngine itself is dead, CryTek burned their brand sueing developers for daring to use CryEngine, the business is deep in financial stress.

Unity looks promising but mostly it gets used for shovelware and asset flips on Steam, it has a terrible reputation as a result amongst gamers. It's also got the stigma of being used primarily for mobile apps, something PC gamers generally despise (which is weird, I mean, you all have phones, don't you??).

I think if a AAA studio can churn out a AAA game with Unity and hit the front pages with it, that's the kind of PR coup Unity really needs to shed some of the stigma. Unity needs to show they are PC first, and instead of trying to play catch-up with Unreal, they need to push the envelope and come up with something bleeding edge. I don't think Unity ever made someone say "Woah."

23
TheTank18:rip_ut: Fortnite Killed UT•

Unity got bought by a company that made spyware. The CEO told anyone who made games to let people have fun rather than exploit them out of their cash a "fucking idiot".

29
ThereIsNoGame•

So much for that then

11
warlordcs•

unity being used for a lot of shovelware is not the fault of the engine.

but the benefit of it being multiplatform is a big step up.

9
ThereIsNoGame•

In some ways it's a testament to the engine for being developer friendly, shovelware pushers are notoriously lazy and will always take the easiest route to a cash grab via Steam Direct.

This doesn't help the reputation amongst gamers, unfortunately.

Being multiplatform is not really a bonus from the perspective of gamers, in most cases it indicates the games will be compromised so they can work on the lowest common denominator hardware (iPhones), and won't take advantage of the capabilities of a dedicated gaming PC.

6
warlordcs•

Also good points.

Tho I have to say, the last couple games I've played that I really enjoyed, happened to be unity games. Phasmophobia, subnautica, unspottable, and overcooked. These are not the most graphically impressive games out there but gameplay trumps graphics.

Tarkov is probably the most visually impressive game I've seen made with unity.

That all being said. Unreal was also a popular engine for asset flip games. And going forward into the future it will probably be even moreso due to the lowered price cuts epic is charging.

1
Cley_Faye•

Aside from locking the download through the launcher (which is recent *and* a shit move), all your complains are general about game dev. People have it so easy nowadays with "ready to use" freely available engines that they have to complain :/

The fact remain that, no matter how bad Epic is, from a technical point of view the unreal engine *is* the biggest beast out there. Maybe the next version of unity will up the game, maybe other relatively smaller engines will step up too, but I don't see them coming to feature parity anytime soon.

14
truemario•

I hate EGS as the next guy but all this post tells me is how in-experienced you are in any kind of development. smh. There are plenty of reasons to hate on EGS the ones listed here are not them.

14
_0451:phil_spencer: Phil Spencer•

Every time I do open it, I'm immediately greeted with a window saying my GPU is out of date for Unreal.

So what GPU do you have OP?

11
Last_Snowbender:vip: Hates Epic The Most!•

but to do that you need to download something called "git"

To be fair, if you're developing anything, git should not be unfamiliar to you. It's the defacto standard in version control and a "git clone [email protected]:/path/to/repo.git" is not something very complicated.

Same for Unity, it's a miraculously simple process for both the consumers and the company!

No, you download the unity hub and install unity through that. Installing unity as a standalone application has been removed years ago. Which is probably less bloat than the EGS (not too sure with the latest merge with that malware shithole), but it's still a "launcher" for your unity stuff. I haven't found a way to standalone download a specific version of unity, and even if there is, it is not the "supported" way.

That being said, I don't see any fancy functions that justify Unreal's reputation as being so much better and more professional than Unity and Unity as this toy for indies and hobbyists comparatively.

Unity doesn't even have half the functions that unreal has. Many of the really advanced stuff is already built-in into unreal, making it much easier for developers to implement it into their games.

Now, don't get me wrong, I hate epic as much or even more than the next guy, but your points seem to come more from a standpoint of ignorance than justified critisicm, making your points a lot less valid.

10
Kaisogen•

Are you a novice programmer? Git is an industry standard and is used pretty much everywhere. Also you must not be viewing the right release branch since they DO have the more up to date source available. "Forking" is the process of taking the source code and creating your own repository and then maintaining it by yourself or with a team. The process you're describing is called compilation, and is necessary when using open source software. You can change the settings, or features included when compiled, and that effects the overall compiled binary size. You're probably doing a default build, which most certainly includes features you probably aren't interested in, or won't use, thus the large file size. If you strip away what you don't need it will be far smaller.

I'm not saying the software doesn't have issues but you should probably know what you're talking about before you trash on it.

7
TheSenat366•

Out of curiosity, did you find out why the file size was so large?

4
PM_ME_GPU_PICS•

It's only this big if you include all platform targets and all debug symbols. It's an engine that contains hundreds of tools and features. There's nothing malicious with the size, it just has a lot of tools.

11
EpochWon•

To add to this, UE5 with just the core engine is about 32gb. UE4 is 18gb.

3
matteste•

And to add to the whole bloatware thing, and engine like Godot is just a couple of megabytes and is open source as well.

3
PM_ME_GPU_PICS•

Godot also doesn't have even 0.1% of the tooling Unreal Engine does so it's essentially comparing a gocart with a lorry in terms of utility.

9
Kuroodo•

A lot of people don't realize that the EGL has been shit since 2015, before they had games on it. It has been like 7 years and Epic hasn't done shit to fix the essential problems with that launcher. They have only made it worse.

I tried using Unreal Engine 4 to release my first mobile game. I don't know about UE5, but UE4 is dogshit for mobile. The final application size is HUGE even after several optimizations and removal of unneeded engine files.

Furthermore, it took me over a month to get ad monetization working. Reason being that the built in engine features were broken. Despite posting in the forums and other areas, no one at Epic would respond. I wasn't the only one having the issue, and some of the issues dated back to over a year. No one at Epic seemed to care. I had to resort to using a third party plugin.

It's baffling to me that Epic completely disregarded one of the major ways to monetize mobile games. Financially it just didn't make sense.

I tried Unity, but disliked it. Have been using Godot for a while and it's amazing, especially now with 4.0

3
TheHighGroundwins•

Hating unreal engine just because it has to installed from epic games is just plain stupid.

Git is an industry standard that every developer has, it's not like something shitty program your forced to use.

There's a reason why unreal engine is huge and takes a long time to download. It's a big engine not just in terms of graphics and physics but also the amount of premade stuff. Which if your developing a game can be very helpful as you don't have to build everything from scratch.

Finally the biggest positive is that unlike unity unreal engine is free to use with a 5% royalty after your game earns over 1$ million. Compared to unity which you must pay for a subscription after the money you make exceeds 100k.

Unreal engine also ironically has better Linux support compared to unity.

Finally all these engines are tools at the end of the day, you use what gets the job done, comparing them like this is pretty stupid.

3
ReticularTunic7•

Not doubting or anything but is there any legit proof that the Epic Games launcher has spyware that ruins your PC ?

1