Source
r/LateStageCapitalism•
jjjam

It sure would be nice if these Christians read their own book. James 5:1-6

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. 2 Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. 4 Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. 5 You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you. (ESV)

Posted Aug 19, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

1.2K203
scipio_africanus123•

I like "it is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven" and "no man can serve two masters" better. More concise.

242
GreevarFilthy Communist•

The funny thing about that, is "camel" is likely a mis-translation. The language it was translated from likely said cable, but the word for cable was very similar to camel, so it was mis-translated to camel.

It actually makes more sense if it says, "It is easier to fit a cable through the eye of a needle than a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven".

58
qsdlthethird•

Camel did always seemed a bit too cartoonish to me

45
DiogenesWashTub•

Animals mentioned in the Bible suffer from translation errors and being written non-contemporaneously. As a result almost none of them are correct in English translations.

23
praxis_and_theory_Mahkno Enjoyer•

My favorite little bit of trivia is that Behemoth as described in the Bible was incredibly likely to be a hippo, while Leviathan was probably a really big crocodile.

10
243847593928•

Serious question…not sure what year the translation happened. What cable would they be referring to before late 1800s….unless that is indeed when the translation happened. I’m thinking before that printing press days and what cables did they use back then for this analogy?

10
cheatingdisrespect•

“rope” would be a better translation.

20
243847593928•

Ty!

2
GreevarFilthy Communist•

If I remember correctly, the kind of cable the word was associated with was the thick ropes that sailors used.

12
243847593928•

Ty!

1
No-Independent-760•

More likely thread.

-4
pedantic_cheesewheel•

https://youtu.be/sf0Fm8aVApk

Religion for Breakfast debunks this. Mostly. It’s an idiom so being ridiculous is kind of the point. Skip to 6:00 if you can’t be bothered to watch the whole breakdown of the theory.

6
HeegeMcGee•

Was about to link that. Good looking out.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-2†
cg001•

This is really a myth that has been passed around. There's no evidence of such a gate.

https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/

This website goes pretty in depth about this

19
pedantic_cheesewheel•

This is a complete myth to soften a radical message. Jesus literally told a rich guy he had to give up everything he owned to the poor before he would call him his follower by using this. He knew it would be impossible for this guy to do this so he used a common idiom of the time. It’s found in other manuscripts of the time that were completely unrelated to Jesus.

8
Adorable_Captain6739•

My understanding is the "Eye of a needle" refers to a city gate entrance used to winnow potential invaders into narrow corridors. A fully loaded camel could make it through, but it would be a tight squeeze and require consideration to navigate, much like a person with excessive wealth would have to live with consideration to live in a moral and just way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle

-2
jelliknight•

Yeah no, thats bullshit made up by fake Christians to justify their unchristian behaviour.

1
Odd_Mood_3417•

Where did you get this information? To my knowledge cable was not a word in existence at the time of writing. Latin had a word which cable is derived from, capulum which meant "halter". So I'm just curious as to the source. Also, what exactly existed BCE that would constitue a cable because I'm not aware of anything.

Side note: what is your ideal condition of society? Obviously an absence of the wealthy. So, an absolute specific wealth value which applies to every individual? An absence of incentive to contribute to societies progress seems like quite a stagnant outcome. Lastly, you believe this because you think a successful businessman owes you some of their money because you haven't succeeded in generating your own? Sounds a little greedy to me. Personally, I don't concern myself with the wealth of others I don't see that I have a right to concern myself with it.

-14
GreevarFilthy Communist•

This is where I got it.

2
Odd_Mood_3417•

Well the author of that video is providing factually incorrect information. I don't understand why include cable in the possible translations of the Greek word. Ropes were the only thing similar to a cable the word had only that meaning. Thank you for the link though, the etymology of cable only a Google search away.

7
fns1981•

I like the imagery of the quote above. It really speaks to the times we're in.

27
praxis_and_theory_Mahkno Enjoyer•

To reflect modern wealth inequality, the animal for the analogy would have to be a blue whale.

16
Caedes1•

Or the factory that the needle was made in

3
IonlyusethrowawaysA•

How about Matthew 25:30-46?

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Seems pretty straightforward, if you don't help the most vulnerable in society you're going straight to hell.

182
[deleted]•

Some self-proclaimed Christians have been carrying signs and shouting at antivax/ antimask/ pro-gun/ pro-life protests, "I'm not a sheep" for several years now. Somehow the people who claim to be followers of the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29) fail to see the irony in their prideful boasting.

123
cuddly_carcass•

I’ve been wondering about this the entire time…so weird

17
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
Wooden-Hospital-3177•

Are ypu talking a out liberal Christians then? Just trying to understand.

1
[deleted]•

I made sure to say, "some" because I know that there are also Christians who are actively speaking out and denouncing words and actions that do not accurately represent their faith. They should be credited for doing their best to align their beliefs with their words and actions, even when it means being rejected by their faith communties or families.

The divisions society is experiencing are affecting everything from politics, to religion, to economics, and beyond. Hypocrisy is damaging to trust in any context. Without a basic level of trust that everyone is acting in good faith, the foundations of society begin to erode. That's why it's important to not only call out hypocricy when we see it in others, but to also address it within ourselves when needed. IMO, it is the collective failure to do the second that is currently causing the most harm.

2
Wooden-Hospital-3177•

I was just confused that you said liberal Christians were screaming at anti-vaxers and pro-life and pro-gun people because I don't know any liberal Christians who would do that. It definitely comes from the other side - conservative evangelicals - will scream about their God to people who are pro-choice and pro-vaccines and pro-gun control. Did I misunderstand you? Sincerely

1
SwimmingPineapple197•

On a related note, in Matthew 26, there’s the bit about how the poor will always be with us. Many self-proclaimed “Christians” love to trot out this bit to blame the poor for their poverty and/or as at least part of their excuse for why the poor shouldn’t be helped. But it doesn’t say why they’ll be with us, only that they will. The popular assumption is generally something about laziness, but they never consider that the real problem might be greed, especially that of the rich.

55
cheebeesubmarine•

They also assume that if liberals all died, none would ever exist again. Almost everyone I know that’s like me is a discarded child from a Christian home. We are all their scapegoated children.

31
Reasonable_Crow2086•

Thank you.

1
usernotfoundplstry•

I come from an incredibly religious, fundamentalist family. All massive Trump supporters.

I used to bring this passage up to them, and they all had the same retort:

”YeAh BuT tHe GoVeRnMeNt ShOuLd’T bE aLlOwEd To FoRcE uS tO dO iT!!!”

I usually say “but you want the government to force people to have a baby against their will?”

“wElL tHaT’s BeCaUsE kIlLiNg BaBIeS gOeS aGaInSt GoD!”

“But doesn’t this clearly state that we’re supposed to help everyone? So if we don’t, doesn’t that go against God?”

There’s never a clap back to that. You’d think that exchange would be satisfying. It’s not. Ever. So I eventually gave up because I realized that they can pick and choose what they want from that book. American Christianity is just a conservative propaganda machine. They pick what matches their political beliefs rather than just doing what the book tells them to do. But I mean, Trump is their God now anyway….

41
Bolinas99Listen to Noam Chomsky •

it's all mental gymnastics to justify hate & cruelty. None of these megachurch clowns have an ounce of altruism in them; any good deed is very public, self serving and always captured on camera...

14
Reasonable_Crow2086•

It's becoming unlivable.

2
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
jjjamOP•

Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell

15
Hobbit_Feet45•

Evangelical pastors have turned away from anything that conservatives don’t like and pander to their partitioners to tell them God approves of everything they like. Guns, capitalism, judgement against others. It’s really become quite the scam.

104
Tango_D•

Evangelical Christianity is about worshipping Jesus while deliberately ignoring all his teachings.

36
GailynStarfire•

They have become the very Pharisees that they supposedly are against

25
nothingimportant0•

christians don't like politicians, they like christians in power who can push their ideology and values onto the country.

13
SymbolicImmolation•

i dont remember specifics, but revelation talks about how in the end times, the church will be rife with false prophets, people twisting scripture to further earthly goals.

11
Parabellim•

If Jesus Christ was alive today republicans would label him as a “radical leftist extremist.” Religious Conservatives today are probably the most likely people to have nailed him to a cross for his economic and social beliefs lol

50
aNinjaWithAIDS•

If JC was alive today, Christians would absolutely have him crucified again.

28
Parabellim•

Yeah that’s the grand irony actually. Because there’s the whole theory about the antichrist in the Bible as well. I imagine if Jesus Christ was to return to earth and preach to American religious conservatives. They would accuse him of being a “communist antichrist.”

22
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
Emmerson_Brando•

Religion is a scam in the first place. Look at all the gold in the Vatican. Look at the billions donated within days to rebuild the notre dame church while millions of people starve or don’t have clean water.

Churches need to be taxed and treated as any other for profit organization as that is what they are about.

35
seekwisdomandtruth•

Religion being a scam is a bit too reductive. It would be the equivalent of a religious person saying atheists have no values because they don’t believe in a god.

However, I agree Churches need to be taxed.

11
cheapcheet•

Organized religion should be what the original commenter should have said. Indigenous religion and other minority religions do not have any fault in the crimes of the oppressor classes favorite toy: Christianity.

4
Emmerson_Brando•

It would be the equivalent of a religious person saying atheists have no values because they don’t believe in a god.

Huh? How many atheists do you hear from asking for donations to hear them speak about atheism? How many atheists do you see buying private jets to get them around the world to preach the word of not believing and then say they need the plane to ward off “evil religious believers”? How many atheists buy massive stadiums to preach about atheism, ask for donations, sell merchandise and then turn those same people away during a disaster?

Organized religion is about control, greed and corruption no matter god you believe in.

3†
seekwisdomandtruth•

In our current reality I agree with you. I am not endorsing religion. I am saying any sort of belief taken to a dogmatic extreme can lead to oppression. This can include belief or nonbelief

5
Sad_Neighborhood7213•

You think the Catholic Church is for profit? Completely brain-dead take. Who do you think is making a profit? Do you even think before you type? It’s honesty astounding.

-36
BlueAndMoreBlue•

Let’s have them file tax returns and remove all doubt…

11
Sad_Neighborhood7213•

There is no doubt because there’s NOBODY THERE MAKING ANY MONEY FROM THE CHURCH. The only clerics with any money at all make it from outside the Church. It’s shocking I’m getting downvoted. This whole thing is a non-starter. There’s no profit, PERIOD.

-22
BlueAndMoreBlue•

Then why not file tax returns and shut the naysayers down?

The Catholic Church has a spotty record when it comes to legal compliance in non-charitable situations, and has had to pay north of 4 billion USD in legal settlements.

I’ll agree that the church does lots of good work but they are not to be trusted in my view. Heck, they could probably get the tax forms done for free by their parishioners

9
threshforever•

Lol

3
thezoomies•

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians. Unlike ordinary stockholders, the Vatican pays no taxes on this income, which led the leftist Rome weekly L'Espresso last week to call it "the biggest tax evader in Italy."

From a time magazine article:

https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,833509,00.html

8
Sad_Neighborhood7213•

It’s gonna take years for the trust to be rebuilt. And the lack of trust is deserved. No doubt. I just don’t think attacking the Church on its finances holds water.

0
thezoomies•

The issue is that they’re a very old a secretive organization with an immense amount of wealth. You don’t see (at least I don’t) the conspicuous consumption you’d associate with the American mega churches and televangelist scenes, but it seems like far too much wealth to just be for operation and maintenance. That wealth is power, and they’re not really accountable to much of anyone.

3
Sad_Neighborhood7213•

The only thing that matters when it comes to taxation is if the organization is FOR PROFIT. Obviously the Catholic Church is going to have massive wealth in real estate, it’s the oldest running institution in the world. It costs money to run the Church which is a spiritual home for one and a quarter billion people. But it isn’t for profit, and to argue that it is or could be is absurd. If it’s for profit, where does the profit go? Do you see the Pope driving a Lamborghini? The accusations that such an institution could be for profit is baseless simply because there’s not a single person in the Church who earns or even could earn a profit. The money the Church takes in is for running the Church itself, including the charitable activities as you mentioned.

I’m not sure what people would want the Catholic Church to do. Sell Notre Dame? Sell the Vatican museum? Sell the entire heritage of the Church?

People speak of the Church’s wealth as if it’s some lavish capitalist institution. The Church existed long before capitalism did. In fact, if you do your research, you’ll find that the Catholic Church has a long history of progressive economic thought and strong criticism of the exploitation of capitalism. The current Pope, even, is well known for espousing communist ideas as in line with Christ’s message.

Do NOT lump Catholicism in with the abuses of Protestant Christianity. These are not the same. The Catholic Church existed 1500 years before Martin Luther went on his hissy fit. Protestantism was born in the midst of the first emergence of the economic system eventually understood as capitalism.

It is very frustrating to constantly see people attack the Catholic faith when there’s so little understanding about it. It’s disheartening. I just want people to argue from a place of knowledge and not hatred. But I’ll keep getting downvoted. I guess that’s my reward for actually knowing what I’m talking about.

-2
thezoomies•

I think people are leaning this way because it’s not a transparent organization, it’s huge, and trust for it is at an all time low.

5
GrassesOff•

https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4

The Catholic Church can eat a dick as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't need to be for profit to be an oppressive institution that takes advantage of vulnerable people.

2
No-Independent-760•

What kind of car does the local priest drive?

2
S0n0fthunder•

Yeah. The real Bible doesn’t like exploiters. But they won’t read those versus. They don’t care. They just want to be billionaires and super capitalists.

30
xXtechnobroXx•

Most “Christians” are only in it to use religion to control others. They are truly the disgusting thing

29
Rozeline•

I don't think that describes 'most', I think most Christians use religion to avoid existential dread.

2
seekwisdomandtruth•

Most?

-2†
xXtechnobroXx•

Yea to say all is completely ignorant.

18
seekwisdomandtruth•

Ah sorry. I meant do you believe that most go to religion for the purposes of controlling others or do they go to it out of a fear of death and a desire for meaning. However, I can see how the fear of death and desire for meaning could lead to controlling others.

6
seekwisdomandtruth•

Agreed

3
InvertedReflexes•

"Greater love hath no man, than that you might lay down your life for another."

Not for money, not for some abstract concept of glory... But for another person's life. That is how much we are to value each other.

This is why the life of the poorest girl is worth more than all the money of the richest man.

23
candychan2•

I’m a Christian (please don’t attack me!) and this is so true. The Bible also says (and these are Jesus’ words) “Truly it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Matt. 19:24. He’s saying it’s extremely hard for rich people to get into heaven because they often get so self-involved, don’t donate a single cent and and care nothing for others.

14
S_Borealis•

I'm also a Christian (albeit a non-evangelical one nowadays). I find it endlessly fascinating (and frustrating) that Jesus says virtually nothing about sex and sexuality throughout his ministry, yet he has plenty to say about money and finance. So, why is it that we (society) ignore all of those teachings and remain obsessed with sexuality and gender identity?

4
OkCaregiver517•

This is not personal but I'll debate theology here. Technically, salvation comes from faith and not works (according to Protestant theology) so if a poor person has no faith they go to hell and a rich person who is "saved" goes to heaven.

I grew up a Catholic and was briefly "born again" and now look upon the whole business with disdain I'm afraid. I do know some lovely Christians but equally some lovely Muslims and Hindus and atheists. And some real shits from these same belief systems.

2
Soviet-pirate•

The protestants (or Calvinists I don't remember) also believe that the more successful you are,the more it shows you're destined for heaven. And slave merchants were quite successful,so I don't know...

2
OkCaregiver517•

Insane eh?

2
Soviet-pirate•

Protestant theology in general sounds like that to me

1
candychan2•

I didn’t even know that. That is completely opposite the teachings I’ve learned at my church. We’re all about being humble, helping others, donating to homeless shelters, hosting parties for disabled (physically and mentally) children (we call the parties Night to Shine, it’s like a “prom night” type thing and there’s games to play too), and whenever my pastor collects money in the bucket that gets passed around, he sends it around a second time saying “Now TAKE money from it, as much as you need!” and he trusts the congregation to only take if they need it, so that everyone who needs help can get help. I never had to take from the bucket, except once when I was in a real financial pickle. I pulled out $200 and a couple gift cards from the bucket, but I still couldn’t help cover rent. So then they invited me (and some others) backstage in the choir room to ask me how much else I needed. I told them the amount, and they gave it all to me. The whole amount, no questions asked, and then they prayed with me. Lovely people.

In my opinion, “success” in life stems mostly from how much you’ve done to help others and the contributions you’ve made to society. I don’t know anything about that “become rich and live lavishly to get into heaven” nonsense, but it sounds pretty silly and untrue.

1
Soviet-pirate•

Well,protestant and reformed churches have many branches and denominations that do things differently,and probably they changed over time. That's what I remember from philosophy class. But your church really seems amazing!

2
candychan2•

Well it’s just what I personally believe. I get you said “this is not personal”, but I’m not really interested in a debate on my beliefs; I only commented to bring up that verse because I found it relevant to the OP, but then I checked and saw others had already commented it 😅

I will say though, even as a Christian, I too wonder why perfectly good people from different religions (or lack of religious belief) supposedly go to hell if they’ve heard of Jesus but have not accepted him. This is something I still struggle with, and I might talk to one of my friends about it. Because I think Buddhism is really neat, and I’m really interested in Japan so Shinto seems like an interesting concept too; they have shrines and certain etiquette with which to properly visit the shrines (bow, clap twice, pray—something to that effect). I am not dismissive of other people’s cultural background, upbringing and belief systems at all.

1
Wooden-Hospital-3177•

Quakers believe you can experience Christ without knowing you are. I'm paraphrasing but if I had to identify as any religion it would be Quaker.

1
Leftist_Bastard•

I am a Christian too. I have read the Bible, and there are hundreds of verses against greed and money.

1
jshinab2•

For anyone who feels inspired by this, feel free to come hang with us at r/radicalchristianity

9
Haselrig•

The Prosperity Gospel fixed all those pesky problems.

8
KaladinThrasher•

I'm not Christian anymore,( atheist) but nothing convinced me more not to be a Christian conservative than literally living with my Christian grandma where we would have actual bible reading nights. not because I hated it( I did), but because many of the very things it was teaching were in direct contradiction to the behavior of other members of the church, as well as the wider Christian movement, and the conservative movement in general. it made me realize either those professing that they were following were either horrible people that couldn't live up to their own standards(yes) or that their standards were horrible themselves( some of them).

at this point, Christianity is dying a slow death as the younger generations realize most of it was a lie, and to the extent that the younger generations are spiritual they're turning to things like Wicca and Satanism. while i do think there might be some revival of Christianity, it in no way will revive the old glory and will just be a brief plateau before the inevitable death. there just isn't a whole lot left in Christianity that can't be offered in other way's that offer more.

if your into asceticism you'll turn to Buddhism, if your into mysticism you'll turn to wicca, if your into welfare there are many secular systems that do it better, if your into group meetings and strange technical readings politics and corporations do that better, ETC.

TLDR: in almost every way Christianity is exhausted, and there is no return that is rational, or even irrational at this point.

6
Scabies_for_Babies•

Pretty sure American Christians use the Horatio Alger edition of the Bible.

It's been nothing but Prosperity Gospel except for on the fringes and in oppressed communities, especially since the Cold War.

5
MultipleXWingDUIs•

James the Just FTMFW

4
Wooden-Hospital-3177•

I love James. Of course modern-day so called "Christians" never refer to him.

1
JustinTime4242•

But but muh supply side Jesus said I’ll be a millionaire

4
Patrishimo3•

Reading their book is what made me a Satanist

3
ugdz26•

Mmmm....for me ..it was the storyline, plagiarism, unbelievable storylines and having to suspend rational thought. Other than that, a solid 10, for world-beating excuses to maintain the status quo(Word of God). I personally prefer, my own people's work in Wicker men and bog sacrifices which have a more honest approach to murdering people.

1†
Patrishimo3•

Yea it was the whole "There's a Genocidal Authoritarian in the sky, with a penchant for Genocide and child rape. We worship him."

Nah thanks, who's that guy who rebelled against him again? That sounds like my kinda crowd. Cya!

6
ugdz26•

Also, the Devil has the best tunes. Although I do draw the line at AOR ;)

0
Patrishimo3•

AOR?

1
nordryd•

They do read it so they know what to cherry-pick to fit their needs.

3
Cyeb0rg•

As someone not particularly religious, amen.

3
LuluRetrospect•

No no no. You have to pick and choose the verses that fit the things you want to proclaim as right. Cut middle sentence if you have to, to make it fit your agenda. This is the way it has been done for centuries.

3
Reasonable_Crow2086•

Straight up mind control by the rich.

3