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r/Stoicism•
HeWhoReplies

“Who In Their Right Mind Would Choose To Die”

Stoic Meditation

Whilst on my daily walked I past by someone preaching on the street. To each their own, no bother.

After a moment I heard the priest say the title, “who in their right mind would choose to die”.

I felt every urge to reply. I took a step forward hesitating to act. I felt compelled to go. It felt like my inner Socrates wanted to speak. I turned around to ask something.

After getting his attention I asked him,

“In regards to what you said about death, who would choose it willingly, I have a question. If your son was going to be shot, would you leap in the way of the bullet?”

“I believe I would” he said.

“I see”. I had heard enough and walked away.

“But He gave it to me”, likely referring to God making the situation that way.

“I know”. I replied as I left the block.

My legs were shaking as I walked away.

There are things more valuable then life. There are things worth dying for. In that case, what’s the fear in death if we’d choose it willingly in some cases?

The example I chose was relevant to my life because my family member made that choice.

I didn’t feel his statement “invalidated” my experience but I used it to prove my point. Though it was personally relevant to me, in the moment it was not apart of my decision to speak.

I wasn’t upset at him, I wanted to give him the opportunity to think differently about what he said. I can critique that I did not listen to anymore explanation once I saw he was misinformed.

I didn’t find it out of line because he was preaching for all to hear in the middle of the sidewalk. I am proud I decided to speak up but I am skeptical of my action. I am open to seeing how my action was out of line, questions, or interpretations.

Thank you for your time.

Posted Sep 4, 2022, 11:39 PM UTC

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GD_WoTS•

I wasn’t upset at him, I wanted to give him the opportunity to think differently about what he said.

Then I do not see this as anything other than genuine desire to challenge him for his own benefit.

Errant as we are, I think it is good to be skeptical of ourselves. What axiom was presented that we gave assent to? We may not yet have the knowledge that is virtue, but we can ask ourselves: was our judgment in accordance with the knowledge of what is really terrible, or what is good and evil, or what is deserved, or what is worth choosing? Were we attracted toward the good, or toward a false good, an imposter?

I think you will probably come to a more secure conclusion soon, which will be helpful no matter what it is.

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Starshapedsand•

I’m in my right mind, and I’ve long been confronted with that choice.

I have a form of cancer that leads to severe mental debilitation long before death. I’ve been through a round of severe brain injury once. I’m the longest-known survivor of my subtype, and my NeuroICU alma mater’s all-time best recovery of function, but reaching that crown comes with clear eyes.

So, the hope is that I keep somehow impossibly living and functioning. But I’ve had several potential plans laid for suicide for many years, in case my function reaches a clearly-defined point where it’s bound to fail. I’m also in the process of getting approval for medical aid in dying, which I hope to never need to take.

I don’t want to die. If I take either of those options, though, it’ll be because I’m still in my right mind, while watching it slip away.

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JohnDodong•

Best of luck be with you friend though at this point it seems you might be stronger than luck. As Seneca said- “ what fortune has not given , she cannot take away..” I pray for your continued strength as one human to another.

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Starshapedsand•

Thank you. It’s learned, and it’s luck.

Without a cargo ship’s worth of sheer dumb luck, I would’ve died at several points: had I been in two of the usual three locations where I woke up (firehouse, parents’ basement); had I not been throwing up blood for no reason anyone medical could later discern; had my boyfriend not refused to wait for an ambulance; had the first hospital not gotten my third drain attempt for hydrocephalus right, after my core temperature well passed fatal and one pupil burst open; had some lunatics on a helicopter (yes, I know that’s redundant) not decided to make their service’s longest-ever airlift; had my next neurosurgeon not been the absolute top of his field; had I not had 30lbs. of spare muscle; had I not had my family (sister, brother-in-law, mom, dad, boyfriend/later husband/later ex-husband) by my side 24hrs/day, giving my comatose self reason to wonder why they sounded so stressed. Then, had I not had the best rehab in the world (thanks, Mom, and two speech therapists, before the formal program!), as well as the incentive of the career I’d always wanted waiting, with a deadline, it wouldn’t have been worth it for function. If I hadn’t seen many people suffer worse things than mine beforehand, or die in my hands often enough to reach comfort with death (hello, ambulance, nursing home, inner city, highway…), it wouldn’t have been worth it psychologically.

The learning is sheer practice. Most of us, thankfully, don’t get that. First, I had a mother who wouldn’t give up, plus a speech therapist we knew, and a speech therapist we hired. Every morning, I was going to wake up in a different location, and need to explain where we are, before I got out. Then, a formal rehab program. Then, nine months out, not ready, I then had to start an exceptionally demanding career, most of which you’d recognize. I lasted a decade there, and even did well, despite a second craniotomy halfway through.

Note to the audience: if you ever need an open craniotomy, skip the damn painkillers. Seriously. Being able to tell what’s real is worth the cost in physical pain, which is only around the same order of magnitude as a migraine: there’s a point where your body just kind of maxes out.

(Should you—reasonably—want confirmation, have an album: https://www.instagram.com/pursuit_of_polaris/)

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Starshapedsand•

Also, as for why they’re lunatics on a helicopter: when you make an airlift that later impresses Air Greenland—western Greenland’s medevac, as well as cargo and passenger—while knowing you’ve got missiles pointed at you due to a straight line over DC, you’re a level of nuts beyond what’s normally required to keep a helicopter aloft.

For an EMS helicopter to lift, every member of the crew has to approve.

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midsummerlight•

When you said *clear eyes, all I could think about was, “clear eyes, full hearts, can’t lose.”

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Starshapedsand•

Oh, but you most certainly can…

NeuroICUs are magic!

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Starshapedsand•

Also, more detail in my other reply on this thread.

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OldSilver1257•

Quality of life, is more important than life itself. My opinion! When I lose my health, quality, I want to get the fuck off this planet!!

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Starshapedsand•

Precisely! Where that line falls is different for everyone, but I know mine well.

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MuMuGorgeus•

That's a pretty cool interaction, congrats for taking action!

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kludgeO•

As long as it doesn't affect you, I see what you did as fair game, philosophers did teach and even invited challenges to their ideias on the public square.

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yeahmaybe2•

I see no problem with what you did.

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rose_reader•

“someone preaching on the street. To each their own, no bother.”

This is a level of Stoicism to which I aspire. I abhor street preaching, and while I never engage with them it makes the hair on the back of my neck curl when I see it. To be able to think no more of it than the barking of a dog would be a big step forward.

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Chrs_segim•

I do not like street preachers, to me they are unnecessarily loud. I ended up at an event somewhere one day, there was a guy, he looked 22..ish. He was playing guitar supplying the entertainment. At some point he said, "I was walking on the street on my way to take my own life, with poison in my pocket. I heard a street preacher talk about "who in their right mind would choose to die." That preacher saved my life that day, I wouldn't be here today"

You understood he was misinformed. I say this knowing I still don't have the ability to do this, but if he felt understood by you, then there would be room for you to make him more informed, room for him to understand you. A middle ground. If you leave him a more informed street preacher, more people will hear a slightly more informed man when he goes on preaching. If you are going to engage with the man, why not go all the way?

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HeWhoRepliesOP•

Your comment was the one I most looked forward to replying to so I’m genuinely appreciative you took the time to write a response.

With regards to the first paragraph, is this an actual story that happened? If so that’s a wild coincidence.

If it’s a parable to show me that the same message can be interpreted differently than I can definitely see another person might value the sentiment differently than I.

If neither then I’m not sure.

You’re saying if he “got it” then I could have aided more.

I can also interpret that if he made room to learn from me than I am also capable of making room for him to teach me. Is that what you mean?

With regards to going “all the way”, I can see that if I’m helping someone out of a ditch and they get their leg out it would be strange and potentially irresponsible to say “you can get the rest of the way out yourself if you try hard enough”. I can just note that I can’t make anyone learn, and I wasn’t sure if that was enough for him to learn the lesson but it could have helped.

I dealt with what was presented, what was already said. I didn’t want to pull anything else out.

With another comment I see that any more correspondence would have gotten theological. I personally wasn’t interested in spending my time doing more than dealing with that one point, else I’d likely be there all day. That could be enriching but I value other things like replying here and what not.

I can easily see “going all the way” becoming an issue with temperance, neglecting my other responsibilities I’ve set for myself. I made some room for the interaction because I saw the value in just that one point. I’d didn’t necessarily have a limit in mind but I thought it would be done quickly and I had a few moments.

Once again, thank you so much for your time.

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Chrs_segim•

Yes to the first question. I did paraphrase what he said in order to relate it to your encounter, but I think the underlying message was the same.

To the second question, I was thinking of the practice of Oikeiosis. A term someone on this sub taught me about 4 weeks ago.

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pharaohess•

an interesting twist of certain christian philosophies is the belief in “everlasting life” means that you don’t actually die. in accepting the philosophy, you buy into eternal life with christ as the figure who saves you from having to die. even if your body dies, your spirit stays alive forever, but many see this as contingent upon accepting christ as your personal saviour. because he made a sacrifice of his life, he allowed people to enter into heaven, being forgiven for their earthy sins.

in some ways, it seems like an antidote to the fear of death, and may comfort some people. i don’t see death as something to fear per se and don’t feel like i need to be saved from it, but to each their own.

i dont ascribe to this philosophy but was forced fo attend catholic school as a kid.

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HeWhoRepliesOP•

I was raised under that idea as well. Even then they line off logic would be shaky. In that case the logic would be, if they were correct, who wouldn’t want to go to heaven, or who in their right mind would choose eternal suffering?

Thank you for your comment I appreciate the response

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pharaohess•

of course, right? who wouldn’t want that? it seems to go along with the fervency that some try to convert others (both now and historically). so interesting how a philosophy can so deeply impact a person’s approach to life.

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HeWhoRepliesOP•

I’m not sure what you mean by “who wouldn’t want that”. Like I mentioned there are choices we’d choose death over, even “eternal suffering” over, even denying “eternal joy”. We have higher values than that. It’s not self evident that death is the worst because we’d willing choose it in such cases.

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pharaohess•

i forget that sarcasm doesn’t get translated in text. i tend to agree with you that death is just a thing that happens. obviously people don’t like suffering but death itself is an end to suffering in itself. there are lots of ways that people take it but being so ardently afraid of it seems to be a cultural thing that i never felt strongly attracted to.

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RoshansAegis•

This is courage's. You challenge someone in their beliefs and yourself to learn.
You should have kept going to find something in there to learn.

There is something called Karmic in Buddhism, it's a relationship that is toxic for each other in the long run, but it is one of the most important relationship you can encounter because it's a test for both of you to evolve as persons.
But be aware as it is toxic, you can easily get destroy by that relationship. Both of you can, it is just fate that brings you together and according to Buddhism you will meet again, in every life, with reversed roles and so on.

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HeWhoRepliesOP•

I can agree that part keeping it going was an option, however I didn’t wasn’t to draw anything out of them, more so just dealing with what was already said. Further inquiry would likely have gotten theological. I guess I aided with my “expertise” instead of delving into what I didn’t know about.

Karmic sounds like the idea of archenemies across life times. That’s the challenge the other presents can bring out the best in us or destroy us. I think a practicer would see all “challenges” that way, if they even saw things as challenges anymore (compared to just making the right choice).

Thank you for your response, I see I could have gone further but I was weary to get “theological” which is helpful for the future.

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bigpoppa_stoic•

We need fearless criticism of dishonest men, and of honest men on any point where they go wrong; but even more do we need criticism which shall be truthful both in what it says and in what it leaves unsaid—truthful in words and truthful in the impression it designs to leave upon the readers’ or hearers’ minds.

Theodore Roosevelt

Stay true to yourself and be as virtuous and beneficial to your fellow man as possible and everything will be good.👍👍

The Stoic attitude is unassuming, obsequious and humble. At bottom, however, it means freedom. It elevates you above all contingencies, affects, wishes, and ambitions, liberates you from the prison of external things, and makes you a free man in your own right, the ruler, moderator, king, and doctor of yourself.

Widekind, Epicteti stoici philosophi Enchiridium (1676), ‘Philosophi Stoici studiosus’, p. 14:

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mattg4704•

You said you walked away legs shaking. Listen I agree with your perspective for sure. The times I've been a coward in life is when I've most disliked myself. If I could tell my younger self anything it would be don't be afraid of failure or embarrassment and I know it's easier said than done. But the point is you did good and don't be afraid to speak up. All you really did was have a conversation. No fear in that. And when you speak just be aware of your own ego. It's easy to see on Reddit some ppl just want to win an argument or prove themselves right. It's better to be kind and try to see if you're perspective is right and help the other person think in a different way then to satisfy oneself about how right they are. Cheers

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HeWhoRepliesOP•

Yes my legs were shaking after the experience. It was involuntary, I could have made that clearer. Thankfully at no point was I scared to make a choice, it was more like weighing choices.

Thank you for your message, I appreciate it a lot

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