Source
r/mtgrules•
jilles0205

Couple of questions regarding +1/+1 counters

  1. Do [[conclave mentor]] and [[corpsejack menace]] stack? And in what order?

  2. If say both of the above cards are out on the field and I give a creature 2 of even 3 counters, how many counters would that creature gain in total?

I understand both cards individually, both can’t wrap my head around what would happen if both were out at the same time.

Thanks in advance! :)

Posted Oct 5, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

317
madwarper•

The controller of the Object that would get the counters chooses the order they are applied.

If you had a ... [[Reyhan]] entering the Battlefield under your control, you can choose for it to enter with either 8 ([3+1]x2) counters or 7 ([3x2]+1) counters. I'd choose 8, but you do you.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

10
MTGCardFetcher•

Reyhan - (G) (SF) (txt)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

2
jilles0205OP•

Thank you! :)

2
ChaotiXIII•

Why wouldn't they trigger each other indefinitely? Corpsejack seeing the additional +1/+1 doubling that causing Conclave to see the doubled counters and so on?

1
madwarper•

a) They are not Triggered abilities, they do not Trigger. They are Replacement effects.

b) Each Replacement effect can only be applied once to a given Event.

614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace that event.

  • Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads “If a creature you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead.” A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.
7
ChaotiXIII•

Ah I gotcha. Appreciate it. I tried to find something about it before posting but I'm super new to really digging into the rules.

2
peteroupc•

Again, an ability that starts with "if" is not a triggered ability (review C.R. 603.1).

Corpsejack Menace and Conclave Mentor have replacement effects (C.R. 614.1a), each of which can apply at most once to a given event "or any modified events that may replace that event" (C.R. 614.5).

3
MTGCardFetcher•

conclave mentor - (G) (SF) (txt)
corpsejack menace - (G) (SF) (txt)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

3
tbdabbholm•

They do both stack and in the order you choose.

So if you were placing 2 counters you could either up that to 3 and then double it to 6. Or you could double it first to 4 and then add 1 to 5 total. Similar with 3 counters being placed, you choose between 8 and 7 counters in the end

3
TNCNeon•
  1. Yes and in whatever order the controller of the affected permanent likes. So either "+1 *2" or "*2 +1" (the first is usually the better choice)
  2. Again, choice of the controller. Either (2+1)*2=6 or (2*2)+1=5 (or 8 vs 7 in the 3 counter example)

If multiple replacement effects want to affect an event, the affected player/controller of the affected permanent picks one effect, applies it and if other replacement effects can still apply to the new event it's repeated until every effect either doesn't fit anymore or was applied once

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jilles0205OP•

Wow that seems quite strong then! Might make a +1/+1 counter deck if I read this :)

2
peteroupc•

In this case, to maximize the number of counters put on a creature you control:

  1. Apply effects that add counters (here, Conclave Mentor).
  2. Then apply effects that multiply counters (here, Corpsejack Menace).

See C.R. 616.1, 616.2, 122.6.

For purposes of Corpsejack Menace and Conclave Mentor, putting counters on an object includes—

  • "putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield", regardless of what verb is used to refer to that action (whether "put", "move" [C.R. 122.5], "double" [C.R. 701.9e], "give", or some other verb), and

  • the case of "an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield" (e.g., "enters the battlefield with ... counters")

(C.R. 122.6).

See also:

2
Will_29•

1- They do. And you choose the order.

2- It's up to you. 2 counters can become 6 (2+1=3, 3×2=6) counters or just 5 (2×2=4, 4+1=5). Similarly, 3 counters can become 8 counters (3+1=4, 4×2=8) or just 7 (3×2=6, 6+1=7)

And you choose the order because you control the creature getting the counters, not because you control the Mentor and Menace. If instead of Menace it was an opponent's [[Primal Vigor]], it would still be you deciding the order.

2
MTGCardFetcher•

Primal Vigor - (G) (SF) (txt)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

3
jilles0205OP•

Thanks guys! Really appreciate it :).

One final question I forgot to post: Do these creatures trigger as well for creatures that enter the battlefield with counters on them? Like hydras?

2
peteroupc•

An ability that starts with "if" is not a triggered ability (review C.R. 603.1), but for purposes of Corpsejack Menace and Conclave Mentor, putting counters on an object includes—

  • "putting counters on that object while it's on the battlefield", regardless of what verb is used to refer to that action (whether "put", "move" [C.R. 122.5], "double" [C.R. 701.9e], "give", or some other verb), and
  • the case of "an object that's given counters as it enters the battlefield" (e.g., "enters the battlefield with ... counters")

(C.R. 122.6).

In other words, Corpsejack Menace and Conclave Mentor can watch for +1/+1 counters a "creature you control" enters the battlefield with.

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jilles0205OP•

Ah thank you! I get it now :)

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