Source
r/andor•
EVJoe

Who is lying to who about ops?

SpoilerQuestion

One of the most interesting aspects of how Luthen operates is his lying, and his lies about Aldhani (refusing to take credit, pretending to suspect Saw did it, "we were invited but we declined. We don't build on luck").

After episode 11, seeing Saw ready to go to Spellhaus after being resistant on Luthen's first offer... I began to wonder if maybe Luthen isn't the only person lying to protect operational security. Saw's demeanor was 100% different in Luthen's second visit, and he was moving around and almost manic, like someone preparing for an urgently approaching deadline.

If Luthen can say "we were invited but declined" about an operation he orchestrated, what's to stop Saw from saying "no sale today, Luthen" and appear to refuse to join the Spellhaus raid, while instead secretly deciding "I'll do the intel myself, I'll decide if this looks like a job worth doing, and if it is I'll go my damn self"?

Saw did mention his team had acquired charts and maps needed for the raid-- why do this if not interested in potentially joining? Luthen returning the day before gave Saw the opportunity to ask for the payment he initially refused, but that was just an unexpected bonus.

Narratively, it's just hard to see why Saw is even in Season 1 if he doesn't join Spellhaus (or conduct some kind of on-screen operation in the finale). I know Saw's in Rogue One, and he'll be in Season 2, so maybe this is all to set up tensions that will pay off in S2... but the writing has been so tight, I would honestly be surprised if they leave Saw out of play and give us action focused only on the other characters.

So what do you think? Is Luthen the only liar in rebellion espionage, or is Saw saying one thing and doing another?

Posted Nov 17, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

3627
ProfGilligan•

I wonder is Saw decides to show up anyway and it leads to Lonni getting discovered. Luthen would be pissed and it might contribute to Saw remaining on the fringes of the rebellion. Would be interesting if it came to be, not that Saw refused to align himself with the other rebel factions, but that his cavalier unpredictability forced the other factions to keep him at arms length or caused them to ostracize him and his operation.

18
EVJoeOP•

This seems like a reasonable read to me. My preferred (but admittedly unlikely) outcome would be that Saw and his crew contribute to the Spellhaus raid in a way which fits Saw's unpredictable character, finding some surefire way to make it look like a coincidence instead of outing Lonni. Like they show up to help in a way that doesn't reveal that they knew it was a trap.

It could go either way, but I think there's room for Saw's involvement in Spellhaus to preserve Lonni's cover. If Saw makes the raid successful, but Kreegyr's force still gets caught of guard, that could look like a messy situation, but wouldn't necessarily finger Lonni as a mole.

8
ITDrumm3r•

What if the play by Luthen is to put pressure on Lonni by involving Saw? Lonni looked like he might turn into a double agent or back out to get out from under Luthen.

2
Tofudebeast•

I don't see how Saw showing up would necessarily get Lonni in trouble. It could be played as the ISB simply didn't know all the groups that would be involved in the raid, especially if Saw's involvement seemed like a last minute decision.

6
ITDrumm3r•

Unless Saw’s team surprises the imps therefore making “it(s) a trap”. Then the imps would think something is going on.

3
EnchantedCatto•

If Saw shows up, Lonni wouldnt be captured. Ðe ISB would just know ðat ðe pilot didnt know Saw was coming

1
snarkhunter•

I think the point of his conversation with Lonni was to help Lonni do the job he needs Lonni to do. The fewer things Lonni has to pretend about, the better. Lonni needs to be focused on preserving his own cover.

If he's also thinking "how do I keep the ISB from figuring out Luthen was behind Aldhani" that's a distraction.

If he's thinking about "how do I distract Dedra from hunting down Axis, who is Luthen" that's a distraction.

The same basic logic also applies to why Luthen lies to Mon Mothma, and to Saw. Everything in Luthen's head is on a need-to-know basis. The less someone else knows, the less vulnerable everyone else is.

14
Tofudebeast•

Yes. Not just to keep their minds clear, but to prevent additional fallout if one of them is captured and tortured. Less they know, the better. Gotta keep the cells as separate as possible.

8
Monowhale•

I think the most likely outcome is we hear about the raid failing during an ISB briefing and they pat each other on the back. It might be a good opportunity for Dedra’s assistant to get a promotion.

9
EVJoeOP•

I think that could be a satisfactory scene, but it would leave me questioning the narrative value of the scenes with Saw. If we don't see Saw (snrk, "see saw") in battle, then that means Saw's scenes were included either as set-up for Season 2, or simply to give us insight into Luthen and how he operates.

If Saw wasn't played by Forest Whitaker, it might not seem so strange for him to be written in as exposition and not as a mover of the plot. But Forest Whitaker is so compelling in everything he does, so Saw feels like a major player who won't sit the finale out.

3
PidginSwanson•

Also: didn’t Luthen say the mission would cost 50 men, while he said 30 plus Kreegyr to Saw?

8
sitdolore•

This is straight up intel-security shit. Tell one person one number, tell another person a different number. If Luthen hears anything about "50 men", he knows the info came from Lonni. If he hears anything about "30 men", then he knows the info came from Saw.

The details in the writing of this show is awesome. This is how confidential/restricted papers are written and distributed. Everyone gets the same report, but each report has slightly different wording in some areas. If there is a leak, the gov't knows exactly who leaked it.

18
rossco311•

The details in the writing of this show is awesome.

It's such a joy to have this as part of the Star Wars universe, I'm thoroughly enjoying every minute of this!

4
sharkWrangler•

I was wondering if anyone else caught that. They were saying 50 men, multiple times in previous episodes. And then he makes it very clear there are 30+kreegyr. Strange.

7
PidginSwanson•

Downplaying it so that his abandonment of Kreegyr didn’t seem quite so bad perhaps?

6
Dernak•

It was Saw who said 30 men initially, and that was before finding out about the ISB intel - so I think it's more likely that Luthen lied to Lonni (or the captured rebel lied to the ISB) about the strength of Kreegyr's forces.

1
hlorghlorgh•

It's highly likely that they filmed the scene in Episode 11 on the same shoot day as the previous scene at Saw's place so I imagine the different number was intentional.

3
Oakcamp•

Or they consider kreegyr worth 20 men. Luthen really made a point of repeating his name haha

1
sharkWrangler•

Wait, is kreegyr actually just 20 kids in a trench coat?

3
EVJoeOP•

I caught that but didn't make anything of it, but I think you could be on to something.

Was 50 meant to put extra pressure on Lonni, just in case 30+Kreegyr wasn't enough weight to prevent Lonni's defection?

Was 30+Kreegyr an artificially low number to make Luthen seem less cutthroat? Why would he do that when the point of that conversation was seemingly to establish Luthen's seriousness?

Maybe Luthen's started saying "30+Kreegyr" as the reality of his decision sets in and the exact number of people he's condemned to death looms larger in his mind.

I love Andor for it's complicated and intriguing ambiguities. I hope most questions remain unanswered, honestly!

4
Oakcamp•

Saw is the first one to say 30 men

1
Prepprepprepprep•

The total amount of credits stolen in the heist is different in different conversations, too. Seems intentional to me, to show how slippery specifics can be in the hearsay of these dealings.

2
Ender_1299•

More importantly, he repeats the "oh, and Kreegyr" statement. Why is he reminding Saw that Kreegyr will die? There's more going on.

1
acesand8s_2000•

I think Saw will be sort of a deus ex machina in the finale. I think he shows up on Ferrix to save the day. Just a feeling

5
EVJoeOP•

Whoa! Hadn't even considered that, though, how would he know about Ferrix?

It could feel unearned if Saw shows up in a place we've never heard him mention, which Luthen has never brought up to him. This show has been very careful to "show the barrel of the gun" before the gun goes off. Saw showing up on Ferrix would come out of nowhere, or would need an establishing scene early in the episode.

3
Charlenepetra•

That's interesting, maybe he was never going to Spellhaus but suddenly found himself of what Luthen promised in exchange. They ALL lie in this show.

3
funkminster•

At some point during Andor (season 1 or 2), Saw has to be badly injured, right? Could it be that Saw joins the Spelhaus raid and it goes badly?

1