huffingtonpost.comPosted Aug 30, 2012, 10:22 AM UTC
If the men involved were civilians, the headline would read "under arrest".
It would probably also have their mug shots. And would disclose the names of the attackers.
And discuss their lengthy criminal background of minor traffic offenses like it was the Tate-LaBianca slayings.
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Cops are civilians. Don't class them otherwise and please share this knowledge with other people that think cops are not civilians.
You seem to have missed the point entirely.
Or you're trying to emphasize how disgusting it is that they're "under investigation" instead of "in prison and blasted all over the media".
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He just knows the definition of "civilian".
Yeah that's very deep and all, but the definition of civilian is "not part of the armed forces or police". I don't see how cops would be considered civilians.
Look it up.
edit: since apparently people don't believe me.
I looked it up. The term "civilian" is used to describe the group not in the set known as "combatants." Civilians are afforded rights under Humanitarian law. Some misapply these terms to non war situations. Doing this only serves to muddle the definitions.
Maybe I should have been more specific. Look it up in a dictionary. I don't know where you decided to look it up, but in case you can't find a dictionary I linked to three of them in my original comment.
That's a great sentiment... but its simply not true. Cops have power that you and I don't and it is completely unfounded.
Exactly. They're pigs.
Cops themselves don't agree with you.
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If the men involved were MMA fighters, the headline would read "LAPD officers win fight by knockout"
I'm sure they'll get a severe paid vacation so they can think about what they have done.
"We expect the LAPD officers to be held to the same standard."
Well you can expect in one hand and shit in the other, and see which fills up first.
"Same standard?" No, I expect them to be held to a HIGHER standard, they are police officers!
So deep
The Assblaster7 knows his shit.
Whatever happened to Assblaster one through six?
They didn't survive the Ass Blast.
You're referring to the shit, right?
Well you can expect in one hand and shit in the other, and see which fills up first.
The man who said this is now under investigation for being from an alternate universe in which police are in fact held to ANY standard.
apparently not pistol accuracy amiright, NYPD?
Since when did swearing become an arrestable offense? Is it even? There seems to be more and more video of police arresting people because they are basically just insulted.
It has to be a training issue. Its like they approach every situation with the same "obey me immediately or I'll put you down" mentality regardless of circumstance.
First: I think the officers are clearly out of line here with excessive use of force. Just putting that out there before I continue. :)
Second: If you're being detained or arrested or anything, shut your fucking mouth and only deal with them through a lawyer. Don't puff up your chest and think you can change the situation for the better by lipping off the cops or putting up a struggle.
It's sad and terrifying that 'shut up and put up' must be considered good advice. It shouldn't have to be. Ever.
It has been for hundreds of years.
Should it remain so?
Why is it sad? Saying nothing is probably the best defense ever conceived. The right to say nothing is probably more relevant to the average individual than the right to speech.
Null is better than 0 or 1, they can't read your minds or experience what you have. If you open your mouth they are instantly given information that they can use against you. Not saying anything also protects you from dirty trick questions, or other types of traps that puts innocent people in jail because they couldn't find anyone else.
Through most of human history you could be obliged to say things that would incriminate yourself. We are extremely fortunate that the 5th amendment has been relatively unharmed by the passage of time. Mostly because people are too dumb to understand/use so it isn't a problem for police very often.
While I agree with some of what you said about not talking to the police being your best defense but this is not that type of situation. You should never have to quiet yourself for fear of a beating from police.
Thing is, cops are trained to deal with people on an escalating scale of force determined by the behavior of whoever they're dealing with. Again I'm not saying these guys aren't dicks who should be charged for their overreaction. But most people don't understand that the initial, sometimes aggressive, fight or flight response to a cop getting in your face can generate a response.
They arent special, they CHOSE that profession!!! Everybody deals with bullshit, EVERYONE. Why do they get special treatment? I've had PLENTY of people call me all sorts of things when I tended bar, does that give me the right to fucking body slam them? They should use force when they are either in danger or somebody is putting Dont defend their actions because there job is hard, get over it.
cops are trained to deal with people on an escalating scale of force determined by the behavior of whoever they're dealing with the ego of the pig.
Sure, but she doesn't look like an agressive drunk though. Or like she'd be able to pose much of a danger to two officers whether handcuffed or not.
They may be trained to 'deal with people on an escalating scale of force', but in this case that training (if any took place) clearly failed and miserably so. Are you content living in a world where your own police force consistitutes another well-armed gang that you get to fund while they're running around beating up people for their own enjoyment? Really?
What sort of force escalation is required to deal with words?
It's terrible, but in a certain sense cops can't be expected to act normal because they are expecting violence.
Many years ago I had a boyfriend who was a cop in Seattle, and when he showed up for a date one evening, he was a bit shaken up. It turns out that a fellow cop had pulled someone over for a traffic violation in a very expensive neighbourhood, and when he walked up to the car he got his face blown off by the driver. No warning.
On the other hand, sensitivity to potential violence can be abused as well. In the case of these two cops, they looked to be entirely too pleased with themselves and the woman couldn't have been hiding anything, so they're obviously abusers of their power.
That's true, but there are some cool cops that keep their heads. Those are the ones we don't really see, the ones that keep a straight face while dealing with an a-hole. There's a few vids, I know, but we tend to forget that.
I hate corrupt off-the-wall cops as much as the next person, and it tends to sway my opinion of them, but sometimes you have to STFU and just deal with them like the spoiled kid at the playground who's a bully to your kid. You can say what you want but that'll escalate the matter. You can just keep your kid from the playground but that's a damn shame. You can't really change anything, just teach your kid to deal with the bully and know that the bully probably is just having a bad day.
Yea it may seem naive but it's most often the case; bully cops are usually just having a bad day, should be trained properly to separate themselves from their job, and if they observe one of their own crossing the line they should have channels to man the fuck up and report their fellows.
I have a very real fear of being pulled over or encountering an officer because of shit like this. Reddit taught me not speak to cops, but is that going to result in me neglecting to say what they wanna hear in order to not beat my ass? I was raised to respect police and trust them above any stranger, now that seems like terrible advice.
It's not terrible advice, most cops are entirely reasonable people. The best way to avoid this shit happening to you is exactly what you've been taught. Treat cops with respect and you'll more often than not get respect in return, and if a cop is being fucked up be cordial, don't argue, and take it to a judge. The biggest mistake people make is arguing with cops, arguments are for courtrooms.
most cops are entirely reasonable people
This is patently false. They seem reasonable and seem nice as long as they are in charge of the entire situation, but they work under such a cloud of self-imposed fear and aggression that anything not under their umbrella of power will cause them to act out in unpredictable ways.
The problem is the system we have for recruiting police, we have a high danger low paying job with high stress.
The only people that are likely to try out for that job are people that really want to help the public and people who want the power of the position.
The problem is the system soon teaches the ones that want to help that there is little they can do to help, so they tend to quit fairly quickly. This leaves us a with police force that is almost 100% filled with people on a power trip.
The only way I can think to solve this problem is to pay more, try to reduce the stress of their job and put in strong measures to remove the more antisocial of the police.
Don't be afraid. None of these videos are ever showing people keeping their mouths shut. These cowardly testosterone-addicts (cops) always look for a reason, even if illegitimate (mouthing off), but they never find a reason with someone who remains silent.
If they're going to steamroll your ass for other reasons (mistaken identity, 'roid rage, etc.) there is nothing you can say to prevent it, and the police practice (really, fantasize about) not getting talked out of whatever they're doing to you, so there's nothing you can say there, either. Basically, if a cop has their attention on you, your words can only hurt you. Stay silent, stay safe(r).
EDIT: clarifying who the testosterone-addicts are.
You know you're right, you should be respectful, just in general in most circumstances. But that doesn't mean you can beat people who are rude.
Can you imagine what would happen to you, a civilian, if you went around beating people that didn't show you the respect that you think you deserve?
Why would someone do that? Why would an organization or gang do that?
Probably to instill fear and show the community that you better get in-line.
It works.
I am very respectful to police not because they deserve the respect but because being anything but will just cause me more trouble than it is worth.
yea the chest puffing and penis waving are for the police.
Unless it's a female officer (who are rarely caught up in potential scandals like this).
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What you're describing is a way to try to work around the problem. The rest of us are talking about the actual problem.
It's like saying oh my wifi's not working, "well just connect to the router via wire". Uhh, ok, but that won't make my wifi work.
"What they did was completely out of line, but I'm going to go ahead and blame the victim anyway."
Edit: Removed rape analogy as I thought the above was a better way of getting my point across. Original comment if interested:
First: I think the rapist was clearly out of line here with excessive use of force. Just putting that out there before I continue. :)
Second: If you're being raped or anything, shut your fucking mouth and only deal with them through a lawyer. Don't puff up your chest and think you can change the situation for the better by lipping off the rapist or putting up a struggle.
Because clearly the situations are exactly the same, right?
Someone abusing a position of power over someone else, by force?
Yup.
Pointing out that not in this specific situation, but in interactions with police as a whole its wise to shut up and speak through a lawyer isn't victim blaming, it's an unfortunate truth in regards to the fucked up state of our legal system. I'm not even going to try and point out the issues with you comparing this to rape...
Not so much comparing as drawing a single parallel. For instance, would it be victim blaming if you were to suggest to a rape victim that had they simply shut up and taken it, that they likely wouldn't have been beaten so badly?
I mean, I'm only using the same logic you are:
saying that in interactions with rapists as a whole its wise to shut up isn't victim blaming
We're not allowed to even smack our children for talking back, but we allow and even seem to encourage officers of the law to beat people who dare talk back to them. Why?
Congrats, you're a moron.
Translation: I have no argument or debating skills, but I really, really want to look cool on the internet.
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then they beat you for "challenging" when they demand you speak. there is no winning if an officer wants to hurt you...period.
Why? This lady just won the lottery and made a stand for civil liberty at the same time.
Or you could grow a pair of balls and not live your life in fear and tell a cop to fuck off when hes being an asshole. If a cop is acting like an asshole, tell him, if he cant handle criticism maybe he shouldnt work in law enforcement. Find another fucking job.
Yes, because telling cops to fuck off never ends badly for anyone...
what you just said, is exactly what I'm talking about. Why is there this underlining mindset that if you swear at police you will get hurt? why is that okay? Why do people think like that? Thats YEARS of abuse. Years of obedience training. Police are servants to the public, WE PAY THEIR SALARIES! Over time though, they have become a gang of sorts. The same way a person would hesitate to tell a gang banger to fuck off in fear of getting assaulted! How many times a day is a waitress insulted? are you scared of waitresses?
It usually ends in a 1-time beating but a lifetime of taxpayer paid litigation jackpot.
The first and last word:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/flipping-off-cops-is-legal-not-advised/
I was arrested for swearing at a cop in college. San Luis Obispo. Wish there were camera phones them. Me and three of my friends would have had a hell of a suit.
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How to end this kind of conduct? Pay the resulting court awarded settlements to these victims out of the police pension funds instead of with tax dollars. The good members of the force would be motivated to weed out the few 'bad seeds' since their actions would impact their brother officers finances directly.
Or make the criminals personally responsible themselves. After a few of these thugs lose their houses for behaving like animals the rest will shape up and start acting like police officers again.
...or both
You could perhaps attach or garnish the pensions of individuals but I can't see how you'd go about just blanket reducing everyones pension.
I suppose you could reduce the funding to the police department by an amount equal to any court judgments against the city for criminal acts preformed by police. Then the allegedly good cops would start to actually feel the pain if their paycheck was cut 5% because officer friendly beat up another 105 pound nurse.
They basically already are. If an officer breaks the law they lose their liability shield and they can be sued for it.
That's really clever incentivization. Cool idea, nonservitus.
Someone is going to kill a cop in self defense.
I wish I were kidding but I honestly think that'll be what turns things around.
It won't turn things around. If will further entrench an us vs them world view.
and have the person that kills the cop in self defense in prison. Unless it's on video and obvious the cop did wrong, I feel it would be a hard place to be killing a cop, right or not.
I'm interested in how that would play out in a courtroom. How does one prove self defense against somebody in that kind of a position of power? If you were the woman in this case and then turned and managed to kill them, how would you ever make it out legally unscathed? Is self defense vs a cop a case you can win? I sure hope so. Nobody should be above the law.
I wasn't very clear but what I meant was "Someone is going to kill a cop and it will be ruled as self defense". That's when police forces will suddenly wake up and start taking these incidents seriously.
Oh, gotcha. I hope they're not seen as too infallible for that in court.
How about prosecute them for assault.
I disagree. I don't believe in punishing people for crimes they haven't committed, and taking money away from law-abiding cops to pay for the bad seeds doesn't sit right with me.
Also, I suspect that it would have the opposite effect to what you intend, and the other officers would go out of their way to conceal crimes if they knew their pensions were on the line.
Pisses me off that they spend so much time making a big deal out of the fact that it's a woman. This shouldn't happen to ANYONE. Granted, I know this will help make her case, but who knows what really happened based on that surveillance tape. They don't even tell her side of the story in the article. She's made no defense.
with all due respect males in general have higher base HP so we can take a bit more of a beating
Yeah, but some of us have a low CON. A few extra HP isn't gonna help much then.
HP is proportional to CON!
That depends on which game we're playing. :)
It's not so much that it "happened" to a woman. It's to show just how defenseless the victim was. Short of brandishing a deadly weapon, there is NOTHING this slight woman could have done against 2 men twice her size to deserve or necessitate the violence she was subjected to.
It's perspective. Had it been a 230 lb man, the cops story may have been more believable, and such has been the case in the past.
who knows what really happened based on that surveillance tape
Um... people who watched the tape? I think they probably have a pretty good idea what happened since, you know, they saw it and stuff.
With cops like these, who needs criminals?
When you are assaulted and kidnapped in a Del Taco parking lot by two men with guns who lock you in a cell where your captors demand money, that you or your family must hand over for your release; who are you going to call, the cops? But they ARE the cops.
Why the "brotherhood" doesn't put a bullet in these officers heads is beyond me. The thin blue line and qualified immunity must end. Then I might shed a tear when cops are shot.
So it's ok to kill police officers for doing this but criminals deserve a fair trial?
See my 2nd response, but yes. The police should be held to a higher standard than citizens. If this was my mother, I would be calling for the execution of this cop by his commanding officer. If the police want to go to war against the citizens of America, perhaps they should pay the combat price for war crimes.
Or the iron price, doesn't matter to me.
You know.. I knew a cop who was a great Guy. He got shot in a small town I was in while a dude with an SKS was opening up on a building downtown. This was in Moscow Idaho a few years ago. I understand your frustration, but I just feel like a blanket statement like that is not fair to some good people who died trying to do something good.
I myself think cases like this are terrible and police forces all need to shape up a hell of a lot. But there are some good things police do too.
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It is a completely relative thing. I have had news in my state of cops arresting other police on felony charges. Not every district and every police force is as bad. A police force in a small Idaho town can't do anything about problems in New York. The news also typically focuses on the bad so it cherry picks what you hear.
Again I personally think there needs to be major reform, but there are good cops and entire police forces that are generally doing the right thing. Police are people and amazingly enough when spread across the nation it is not uniform in how they act. Though I will say I think they need to be held to a higher standard to since they act as paragons of the law.
Wow that's a lot of excessive anger and lack of empathy, you should probably seek professional help...
Edit: wow, apparently I underestimated reddit's love for extrajudicial murder. Bravo...
I disagree. When the State violates a Citizen's rights and assaults a Citizen, then the State must be punished. Beating a Citizen should require the actor of the State to lose their life.
Or better put, why can't the police police themselves? I am guessing 2 weeks paid leave for beating this woman. There are divisions in the military that police themselves, why can't the police? Not every 'friendly fire' incident is unintentional. I saw it firsthand.
Perhaps qualified immunity should be taken away first? That way, this woman can now own that officer's house, retirement fund, and hopefully their children's college fund. Perhaps that would be enough of a deterrent to have this happen in the future. Until then, I am placing my bet on a 2 weeks paid vacation for this officer.
Wow, you really have a completely fucked view of somehow justifying murder as a punishment for really comparatively insignificant things. I'm going to reiterate, seek professional help.
It isn't murder. It is justice for an actor of the State assaulting a Citizen. How would you feel if this was your mother/sister? This officer getting 2 weeks paid vacation is justice to you?
Holy shit. The way she was slammed on the ground from the side of the police cruiser... that can KILL her if her head hit the pavement hard enough... Do these police not understand this? Or do they just not care?
I'd reason that they don't care.
Judging from the celebratory fist bump at the end, I go with they don't care.
Hey, you all saw her. She was destroying the public property by trying to damage the concrete with her face.
There are arguments that can be made about challenging an officer and being confrontational that might, but I doubt, excuse her being brought to the ground the first time, but an officer throwing anyone, especially someone that much smaller than them to the ground while handcuffed is inexcusable. Sadly I doubt either officer will get much more than suspended for a couple weeks unfortunately.
With pay.
Slam a women to the ground, get paid vacation, poor officers...
I'm so glad the reporter explained that a fist bump is a type of high five, I was so confused.
"The fist bump was also caught on camera, a device that takes pictures of things"
"They slammed her into the ground. The ground is like a floor, but outside."
Don't forget, it's also an indication that you're a terrorist
What the actual fuck is wrong with 'murica?
The power has been stripped from the masses, financially and governmentally. They no longer fear us or repercussions for their actions because they almost never get in trouble and if they do it is usually a slap on the wrist compared to what would happen to a civilian.
We are due for a civil war. Unrest is about and continuing to grow. It's only a matter of time.
It's only a matter of time.
My dad told me the same when I was little. My grandpa told my dad the same when he was little. And I suspect my great-grandpa probably said the same to grandpa, when he was little. Just another prophecy from the Promised Land.
It's only a matter of time.
2 generations is not that much time if you think about it. I'm not sure about civil war though because I see no reason for Americans to be fighting each other and I refuse to believe there could be a war over abortions and gay marriage etc.
I can see a violent uprising happening though. Against the bought government and corporate interests that are depriving Americans of their share and telling them they have to work multiple shifts, to deserve an apartment and some food.
I doubt it - people aren't connected to their neighbors enough to trust them with their secret uprising plans. IMHO the general populace has become too divided, paranoid, competitive and individualistic for that kind of collaborative action, let alone common goals.
If you allow yourself an indefinite wait "it's only a matter of time until things change" is true everywhere. It only means something as a prediction if you put an estimate on it.
I'm not holding my breath for ordinary Americans to gain awareness of how they are exploited by the powerful, to develop the motivation and courage to push back, to form a vision of how they want the country to work, and to organize to put it into effect. Most people in the country are complacent, ill-informed and apathetic, it has been that way for a long time, and it's not a situation that shows any sign of improving.
We just need to get to the point where things get bad enough economically and politically that we start acting like Egypt et al.
As it is, there's enough people still living comfortably in suburbia keeping the machine going. And enough credibility left in corporate news to keep the resentment docile.
The tea party was one manifestation of dissidence, but was quickly absorbed back into the GOP. Occupy was another, but you saw how the media vilified them as hippies and lowlifes.
The economy has recovered somewhat since the housing crisis, but all it's going to take is another bubble to burst or another war. Congress has a 11% approval rating, meaning 300 million+ people are unhappy with the government, and the unemployment rate dipping a percentage point is not going to make them happy again.
Just lower the gas prices for a while, have a new big scandal, it'll be all good again.
Civil war? Really? Our political system is pretty fucked but I'm pretty sure an armed rebellion is pretty unlikely anytime soon, not by any reasonable segment of the population at least.
Only 3% of the population of the colonies actively participated in the revolution.
Edit: Seems I was mistaken. According to Wikipedia it was 40-45% with approximately 90,000 men enlisted at it's peak.
Active support can mean so many things though: even if you have a small force fighting, there are a ton of logistics that need to get sorted out/dealt with by the population at large for the smaller force to have any chance at success.
Do you have a source on this?
not by any reasonable segment of the population at least
Considering the percentage of the population that is unreasonable (and also well-armed) let's just say I wouldn't be shocked.
The war has already begun, but only one side is fighting it. Should there be any surprise who is winning?
We need to put a camera on every pig.
Oink oink!
"Ya but Lucy keeps rollin' in mah flowerbed!"
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She was pretty, now she's just fucked up.
Once again the LAPD is taking great care not to waste taxpayer dollars. . . Sarcasm
I can't help but cringe every time they show her being slammed to the pavement face first while her hands are cuffed behind her back. She could have died if her head slammed the pavement. There is absolutely nothing that can possibly ever justify that. They have full control of her and she's completely defenseless. That is just disgusting.
Looks like LAPD has been getting sloppy. They've brutalized the poor and the black for decades, but crossing a decent-looking, non-poor white woman is risky, and crossing a Deutsche Bank executive is borderline suicidal.
Methinks these guys are about to be reminded of where exactly on the pecking order they are, and who exactly is above them. While I'd rather they treat all people with respect, I'm glad to at least see them put in their place.
White and a Woman? LAPD dun fucked up.
Sheeeiiiiit! Maybe now, something will get done.
Soccer mom by day, nurse by night? Yep, you dun fucked up!
Black Panthers, where at thou?
"Under Investigation" means many saw it so they better act like they give a shit.
Well she is white so they have to do something
Not necessarily. This cop beat the shit out of a white, female, bartender half his size who dared to stop serving him --all on tape-- and got probation.
Video
Story
I'm on the interwebz so I know this story. To be fair he appears to have gotten the same sentence anyone would have gotten for doing what he did AND he lost his job so he is no longer a cop. I'd mark that up as a win. This is even before she sues the shit out of him and the city.
He lost his job as a technicality of the felony conviction - no felons on the force. The video itself was apparently not enough evidence to terminate his employment.
I thought assault got you at lease some prison time?
Maybe in the UK, but here in the States you're likely to get at least jail time for beating the shit out of a woman.
Every week there is an abhorrent story on the front-page of reddit regarding something similar... People express dismay and abhorrence yet its business as usual.
Nothing to see here, move along people.
But it takes so much energy to stand up for our rights! Almost as much energy as it takes to walk away from reddit for a few hours!
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We just have to make a bigger stink about it all. Even if it means doing it every single day. It's really the only way we will see things getting done. Rather than making a fuss about it for a week and then completely forgetting about it.
What more do you want done? Not only are both the cops in trouble, and off the street, but so is their commanding officer. It's only 9 days since the incident! Should we expedite prosecution because they're cops? Or provide the victim with a faster settlement? What exactly is it that you think needs to be improved upon here?
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No problem. I lived in Chicago during this time. It was all quite difficult to believe.
From that picture there is no way that guy is only 250 pounds. How the hell was he a cop?
Lots of fat cops out there.
Not only do police unions work to keep bad cops on the force, they also help to lower physical fitness standards within the force. It's all a part of making gun-usage more necessary. Fat and stupid means you can't run or practice physical restraint, so you just whip your gun or taser out, knowing that you won't get fired.
True. They'll get two weeks paid suspension. But only because she is white.
If she wasn't white they'd get six weeks.
"Under investigation" means paid leave until it all blows over.
With doughnuts and a welcome back party with more doughnuts and little paper hats.
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I hate to interrupt the circlejerk, but the LAPD is overseen by a civilian commission. The cops are investigated and judged by non cops.
They will be punished after all the facts are considered.
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/22/local/me-lapd22
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/oct/11/local/me-lapd11
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/14/local/la-me-inspector-general-20100514
But maybe things are better now.
2003, 2006 and 2010. it's as if you think nothing ever changes. that the world is static.
the system isn't perfect. perfection doesn't exist, but it's kept police brutality cases in LA down.
the officer has already been demoted.
I posted three examples, not because that's all that existed, but because I figured the point was made. Sure, things could change. 2011 and 2012 could have turned the whole thing around -- suddenly, the police respect civilian oversight commissions, and start arresting police for their crimes! -- but I seriously doubt it. Maybe there are counterexamples, cases where a civilian oversight committee investigation resulted in some prison time for a cop? Dunno.
Is this unique to the LAPD?
i'm not sure which other cities have it.
http://www.lapdonline.org/police_commission/content_basic_view/900
I'm sure we're not the only city whose police department is overseen by civilians, but it has really helped keep police brutality in Los Angeles at a minimum. Unlike the NYPD or other major metropolitan cities.
But without citizen bystander witnessing at the street level during the altercation, they would often times never know it happened.
Doesn't Internal Affairs step in in cases like this?
The problem there is the "internal" part its LAPD and even more than most they tend to protect their own.
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