Source
r/MightAndMagic•
BurfMan

So I think these old games might be more fun

So I have been replaying the old M&M games recently, and I have noticed something I hadn't really clocked until now.

I don't think I have been enjoying the actual act of playing a lot of modern games. Sure, a lot of them have been intellectually engaging - vibrant, detailed worlds or presenting interesting choices, mechanics, or system interactions. But the actual act of simply playing the game itself... I've lost count of the games where the prospect of repeating sections of the game are off-putting to the degree I might put it down for good!

I have been having such a wonderfully fun time playing M&M 6 - in the sense that I thought I had grown out of with age. The act of playing this game is just fundamentally more enjoyable an experience to me than the experience I have had in the past decade or so playing more modern games. I have gleefully slogged through the same dungeons multiple times, and it's rare that I've felt so pleased with myself as I did deciphering the vault code in Goblinwatch; but even just engaging with that vault itself was very satisfying than anything yer Skyrims ever put in front of me.

I'm hard pressed to pin down why I've been having so much more fun. Few modern games have really given me this sense of joy from playing and I thought I was just getting jaded but maybe Game Design has taken a turn for the (subjective) worse?

Posted Aug 8, 2023, 3:45 PM UTC

114
Mondkalb2022•

Idk, the MM series games are classics for a reason. Probably, because they are fun to play. :D

1
HealthyShroom•

I do know what you mean. I enjoyed them when I was younger, not really understanding the mechanics, but then fell in love with them replaying them as an adult, understanding the lore and classes, These games are like fine wines to me, or a detailed painting masterpiece. They have a charm that is so unique it's impossible to feel with modern games, they feel more personal and hand crafted. And then a mix of nostalgia! Hard to put into words but I understand you.

1
RichGirlThrowaway_•

I think there are two ways of playing M&M games that are very different and have very different reasons for being fun.

One way is to just play through normally, casually. Just vibes and killing shit. In that sense I think a Might and Magic game is kind of like an idle game, lol. You get to see numbers go up. But obviously it's an active version. The fun is that as you go, numbers get more and more significant. It's fun to watch numbers go up. It's fun to level up. It's fun to kill an enemy and know you just got some exp, that'll help increase your level, that'll help increase your Air Magic skill, that'll increase your Sparks damage, that'll kill enemies faster, that'll get you more exp, that'll level you up, that'll increase your Air Magic more, etc etc.

Throw in the big jumps in power level you get sometimes and you get the real rushes. Getting Master Air and learning Fly so you can suddenly complete every overworld, grabbing an Artifact early, maxing Bow skill on your Dark Elf in MM8, getting an "of darkness" weapon for your Knight... Pure endorphins.

The games also aren't really that hard. MM6 is obviously a lot harder than MM7 or the calm breeze that is MM8, the reality is you can kind of do whatever you want, if you can be bothered. Between the infinite resources in respawning worlds (infinite exp) and ability to farm money (trading in MM7 and MM8, arena/bounty in MM6, high merchant + Enchant Item in any) the ability to savescum anything you want (getting infinite loot from your first killed dragon...) or savescumming mid-fight to beat "too difficult" fights... You've always got the potential to beat everything and after the "crux" of MM6's difficulty being that earlygame where you finish the easy stuff and kind of have to brute force the Temple of Baa, you're free to do whatever really. You meet sufficient resistance to feel engaged and accomplished without ever actually being in a position where you could feasibly get stuck.

You can also play very hard challenge runs, or very hard mods. Like the MAW Nightmare mod for MM6. That gives a very different sense of entertainment because the game becomes extremely difficult and you actually can get stuck, can fail. This makes everything extremely satisfying to complete. I started playing the True Nightmare difficulty and clearing Goblinwatch elated me lol. I don't think I've ever popped off at clearing the first dungeon before.

It's a game of a thousand small victories, and you can draw enormous amounts of satisfaction from every tiny win.

I think the modern RPG has pushed way further towards realism. Or the nearest approximation of such that one can expect from a genre full of 15 ton lizards that can fly. You've probably killed like 10,000 enemies by the time you finish Might and Magic 6 lmao. You enter a single room and there are 30 Werewolves or 40 Swordsmen or whatever in it. Hell the Snergle Caverns have like 150 dwarves or something? 200? The Temple of Baa has over 100 skeletons spawn in one room. The numbers are wild. Modern RPGs you fight like 3 bandits, or 1 dragon. Cut to MM6 and Dragonsands has that big area with like 80 dragons in it lol. Killing lots of shit is fun. Mowing down hoardes of enemies is fun.

Then there's also the variety. There's so many fucking enemies. The variety does so much for the game, in my eyes at least.

1
TSED•

Then there's also the variety. There's so many fucking enemies. The variety does so much for the game, in my eyes at least.

This is a hugely understated factor. I get it, resources aren't infinite, yadda yadda, art is expensive. But compare how many different enemies you fight in the "golden age" RPGs (1990s to very early 2000s) to how many you'll face now.

M&M:WoX has what, >200 unique enemy sprites? With a couple of sort-of repeats but still different, and I'm not counting the "boss" types which will just have a distortion or discoloration effect. BG2 has at least 100. I never played Diablo 2 but I read something years and years ago about how the devs made it so you got change-ups every 5-10 minutes of playing it; area and enemies. When you compare it to modern RPGs, they will barely break 50 if they're a huge game. My personal favourite, Pillars of Eternity, has about that many. Pathfinder: Kingmaker is an absolutely slog of too-much-content and part of that is its 40ish enemy models across like 200 hours. Etc.

It gets boring seeing the same old thing over and over again. I wish smaller indie RPGs that don't have to fork over 100 manhours worth of dev time per model would really lean hard on the "enemy visuals variety" angle. It makes such a huge, huge difference.

1
Kolyarut86•

I completely agree that the enemy variety is excellent, but I gotta jump in and defend my boy Pathfinder Kingmaker for a moment - like the M&M games, it's got a large number of different locations with different themed enemies in each. There's no engine limitation restricting them to X number of enemies per location.
I love both series enormously, they scratch similar itches in different ways.

Also, while you might see several enemies of the same species, they will vary in appearance and abilities more than M&M. Those visual differences are less obvious though because it's top down rather than first person.

One neat feature of the Heroes of Might and Magic games is the fact that each unit changes appearance dramatically as they upgrade - it's a shame that didn't make its way back to the main series, if we're totally honest it's a little lame that a goblin king is a recoloured basic goblin. I like to fantasize about an HD remaster of the enemy sprites (which seems plausible to happen some day) complete with upgraded art for each enemy variety (which seems much less likely).

1
TSED•

A difference you can't see because you're zoomed out enough to actually see the battlefield is no difference at all. 40 might have been lowballing it a little, but there really aren't that many different enemies, visually speaking. Most of them are PC-able (ie the humans, elves, etc.), a decent amount of animals (most of which are available as animal companions and thus also PC-able), summons from spells, and then about a half-dozen fey, a half dozen giants (counting trolls) if you include the undead version thereof, like 4 few undead, goblins and kobolds, hydras, manticores, owlbears, giant walking flytraps and mandragoras, wisps, rocs, and... uhh... the end boss? I don't recall any actual demons or devils except for an extra asset or two on a humanoid frame, but I could be forgetting something.

Like don't get me wrong it IS a lot of stuff. It's just not enough for how long you spend in the game. I'll also point out I picked M&M4+5 over M&M6 for a reason :p. 6 had what, a little shy of 60 itself? 7 and 8 upped that through asset recycling (which I am totally okay with).

1
CaptainCaring•

Well we also played games for fun. Esports hadn't really blossomed like now.

Nowadays, everything is interconnected so the primary demographic has changed up and people sell to them, really, not us nearly as much.

Indie devs are picking up where AAA left off though.

1
ShadowLiberal•

I think the biggest problem with E-Sports in modern games is how too many gaming companies try to force their games into becoming an E-Sport rather than letting it form naturally from the ground up. The most successful E-Sports were created by fans who wanted to see who the best of the best were.

When a gaming company tries to force E-Sports into being a thing they waste a ton of development time on content that won't matter to 99.9% of the people playing the game. And they focus too much on balancing things out for the top tier players, while spending too little time on balancing things out for the average player, which are the vast majority of their customers.

It's the ultimate irony Blizzard themselves doesn't seem to understand this, given that they were the ones who unintentionally launched the e-Sports scene by making Starcraft 1 such a good game.

1
WrennReddit•

It's funny...I was remarking on this to friends just today. Everyone's going gaga over Baldur's Gate 3. I'm sure it's cool, but I just don't crave it. What I did crave was MM6 for the millionth time. And now I've picked up MAW Nightmare Mode, and that has breathed incredible new life into the adventure. It has been a couple decades since I struggled in New Sorpigal, I can't execute tricks like the Shrine of the Gods teleporter...even if I could, projectiles home in now so there is no cheesy dodging. Goblins are real problems and not laughable nuisances. I love it. And I now have a reason to fully explore Goblinwatch and the abandoned temple because they've expanded at least those two dungeons and included boss monsters!

Needless to say, I crave it. I don't crave what all the trendy streamers are getting paid to play and hype.

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ShadowLiberal•

I feel the same way. I'm literally replaying Baldur's Gate 2 right now, and don't have any plans on touching Baldur's Gate 3. From what I've seen and read Baldur's Gate 3 just seems like a completely different game from Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 that only kind of takes place in the same world. Also, learning that the events of Throne of Bhaal are assumed to have never happened in Baldur's Gate 3 was a major letdown.

That said as a BG1 and 2 fan I'm still glad that it's bringing a lot of people into those 2 decade old games.

1
LV426acheron•

The M&M games are fun.

Reminds me of the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie. It's not that serious, but not a parody either. They wanted to make a fun fantasy movie, compared to recent stuff like Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones which is so serious and self-important.

1
silorme•

I think that hits the crux of it. MM never took itself too seriously. It was about exploring, surprises, trying different things, cheesy exploits, and freedom.

There are so many ways to go about winning. Each with enough variation to make it fun again.

1
Malekitsu•

I've been modding MM6 for long, so I've thought a lot about its game design, the strength and the weakness.
While I appreaciate some of the newer games as well, I clearly see the strength of older games.
I've summed up:

Simplicity:

I've noticed that many new games these days seem to go for complexity, which often feels unnecessary. While they offer deep mechanics, diving into them can be quite a challenge.

Graphics:

The graphics in modern games are undeniably stunning, but sometimes they're almost too detailed. This can actually make it harder to spot crucial things on the screen, especially in FPS games where some players even resort to reducing the graphics for better visibility.

Exploration: Vast Worlds vs. MM6 Magic:

In the realm of exploration, it's interesting to see how modern open-world games boast massive maps, yet they can feel a bit barren. On the flip side, games like Might and Magic VI (MM6) offer a more satisfying experience. You're in for an adventure with meaningful places and useful items scattered thoughtfully.

Items, Inventory, and the Unnecessary:

Here's a thought: new games seem to throw a million items at you, most of which are honestly pointless and just clutter your inventory. On the other hand, MM6 nails it by giving us items that matter, which you can easily understand and use. And hey, opening your inventory doesn't feel like stepping into a maze.

Dialogue Overload vs. Action-First:

Nowadays, it seems like games can't resist shoving tons of dialogue at us. MM6, though, keeps it refreshingly simple. You start, turn a corner, and boom, you're already battling monsters or facing whatever fate awaits you.

Enemy Numbers and Combat Rush:

Did you ever notice how new games often have a few enemies here and there? MM6 takes a different route. It practically drowns you in enemies, and it's kind of thrilling. New Sorpigal's got around 200 of those baddies, Goblinwatch flaunts 210, and the Abandoned Temple is a home to a whopping 220.

Loot that Actually Matters:

Speaking of enemies, the rewards you get from defeating them are quite different in MM6. Those baddies cough up gold, which is a nice change from the bunch of random stuff you accumulate in new games. This way, there's no need to keep hauling your loot back and forth to sell, and you won't accidentally miss out on the good stuff.

Hope this articulates your reasons better.

1
soareyousaying•

I stopped playing modern RPGs because they are all going for those complex character build system. You need to level up, then collect runes, or some gems, with all these complex web of skilltrees you need to master.

1
ShadowLiberal•

Graphics:

The graphics in modern games are undeniably stunning, but sometimes they're almost too detailed. This can actually make it harder to spot crucial things on the screen, especially in FPS games where some players even resort to reducing the graphics for better visibility.

The other problem (at least for me) is that a lot of modern graphics just make me dizzy. Especially in all of these 3D games.

Enemy Numbers and Combat Rush:

Did you ever notice how new games often have a few enemies here and there? MM6 takes a different route. It practically drowns you in enemies, and it's kind of thrilling. New Sorpigal's got around 200 of those baddies, Goblinwatch flaunts 210, and the Abandoned Temple is a home to a whopping 220.

I think this is caused because of all the newer graphics. If you have 100+ fully rendered pretty enemies the game will lag like hell, and the memory it eats up will jump through the room. This is part of why the Metaverse and VR games look so atrociously bad, the hardware just can't handle the kind of graphics expected in a modern game.

1
vukassin•

I was actually thinking of some kind of comfort game to get into lately, I keep returning to Might and magic ever since sseth review.

When I was younger I was only familiar with Heroes 3 and 4, but compared to the rpg they feel way way more difficult and kinda straining to play. I replayed recently and the maps in the campaign took far longer than I remember. With MM I get a cozier feel, though it took me a while and lots of wiki lookups to figure it out.

1
Stormtrooper_LP•

Had a very similar realization a few days ago. Have finished MM7 two times in the last week and I am playing a third run right now bcs of exactly that.^^

1
camisrule•

Happy to read this as I've been experiencing the same thing lately. Even Bladurs Gate 3 does not compare to might and magic 6 and 8 for me. I've made my way back here to see how the community is and wondering if a few mods exist.

Happy I'm not the only one wondering why most modern games are a bit of a slog these days.

1
Havesh•

Here's my take:

Games back then weren't solely made to make money. The demographic that would buy the game was much more specific than it is now. The industry also wasn't entirely standardized and there was a lot of experimentation going on. This led to a more fresh experience. The game didn't make any assumptions about you and systems weren't needlessly complicated most of the time.

I think this sort of thing is very well explained in how MM evolved from 6-8. You could say that limiting what rank of a skill certain classes could attain in 7, but in general if you can't at least get master in a skill, it's dead in the water. So you figure out which ones you can settle for being expert or master in and build your team around that. It doesn't feel great and it's the reason 6 is the most popular out of the 3 of them.

A second reason is game literacy becoming worse, as games are designed without expecting you to put some work into it. This is parallel to the fact that more and more games are released at the same time, so they're all competing for your attention. So, in order to make sure they don't lose your attention, they do everything they can to avoid having the player misunderstand or misinterpret mechanics in the game. This creates shallow games with little-to-no player input in a mechanical sense. It's Morrowind vs. Skyrim. Path of Exile vs. Diablo 3/4.

So, in conclusion. Two of the main reasons (among others) why MM6 seems more enjoyable than new AAA games is the fact that they're made solely to make money, and that they're competing for your attention more than ever. Most of the time, this results in long and boring tutorials and a fear of letting the players play outside of the meticulously designed play-pen.

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