columbian.comPosted Aug 30, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC
Living Hope was pretty shady to pass off the costs into these businesses when they were the ones originally on the hook for the survey
This sucks, Maya Fruits was good.
I am guessing they are taking a much needed vacation and will look at reopening next spring.
The few times i passed by they where never open. Never even got to try it
Any word on where El Jefe is going to go? I love that truck
There are two El Jefe in Hazel Dell now, one at 78 & 99 and one near 99&99
The one at 99/99 is Birrieria PDX, same concept but not El Jefe
They aren't moving (yet).
They should go to that walmart lot aswell. I saw winstons there but like to the right of the autozone i think i saw more food trucks if im not mistaken
Anyone else find it a bit odd that a traffic study of that nature that costs that much is required for a few food carts along that stretch of Andresen?
funny how the city didn't ask the new warehouse behind my apartment complex for one/ They have a minimum of 6 semi trucks docking at all times, their semis make it so no one can get out of the complex. Added a huge amount of traffic on a tiny residential street smh
Guaranteed that they did require a study, all new development within the city requires one.
nope, it was always there, but the previous company only used box trucks and kept the semis on the 112th avenue side, away from the homes, this new company does not. When I called the school about the busses not being able to get through, they even tried to get the business to use the other side but they refused.
Almost had a semi jump the curb and end up in my kitchen last week.
Then perhaps you should call the city transportation planning department and voice your concerns. If they are not aware of the problems, they can't fix them
All of your arguments have nothing to do with whether the property owner went through this process, which, if it's actually in city limits, they most certainly did go through.
It’s an inherent cost of car-centric infrastructure. These pods fall in an area full of stroads, where people primarily drive, which causes traffic build up. As a result, small changes like this end up costing small businesses their livelihood. It’s not just in Vancouver, this is a problem almost everywhere in the US.
Had these food pods been placed somewhere where people primarily walk, bicycle, or take/have access to transit, this wouldn’t be an issue. This is because bicycling, walking, and transit don’t cause traffic and disruptions to travel/traffic flow like driving does.
Another reason why we need more dense developments and walkable environments (15-minute cities) like the Heights District Project aims to create. Along with a long list of benefits to individuals, they also allow small businesses to thrive.
I mean, there's a few thousand houses on the back side of the church that are all most definitely in walkable distance to the food carts...
And you’d be surprised at how many of those people will still drive.
I'm not surprised that people who live in a car-centric space drive.
The fee doesn't seem that high to me. There is so much overhead for stuff like this that me, as a casual observer, would not be able to account for.
City planning costs money unfortunately and there are people that are impacted by traffic.
Its already zoned commercial, in the middle of a major commercial/light industrial sector. Why does an expensive traffic study have to be done in order to have a few food trucks on your property that's already zoned for that type of business? Its unnecessary bureaucracy.
Those businesses have had a traffic impact. You would need a study to know if a signal is necessary though.
There is literally no traffic impact over there
Its not a traffic study, its a traffic impact fee.
Like, are we trying to turn off small businesses?
This fee was given to the church who owns the parcel, who then passed it onto the food carts. No one is trying to "turn off small businesses". Thats the cost of doing business in a city. Be mad that the church is trying to foist these fees onto the businesses
The city and other jurisdictions need to revisit impact fees for uses that are of a "redevelopment" type. There's no way a handful of food carts are creating trips similar to what was there previously (Kmart). Those trips should already be in their traffic models.
There's no way a handful of food carts are creating trips similar to what was there previously (Kmart)
It looks like the K-Mart was in place far before TIFs were a thing. The city only started assessing TIFs in 1996 and this article implies K-Mart had been in the location since 1975. People want cities to have standards until those standards are enacted fairly. Again, this is the cost of operating a business in an incorporated city. I am all for making it easier for small businesses to thrive, but this seems to be misplaced frustration at the city. Once again, we should be frustrated that the church is trying to pass these fees (which should be the responsibility of the property owner) onto the lessees
How the hell does it cost the city 424 per person that stops off to get tacos when they're passing by?
It's absolute nonsense
It seems wrong to impose fees on businesses for traffic impacts when those fees will be passed on equally to customers regardless of the transportation method used to visit the business.
Increases to vehicle registration fees and gas taxes are more appropriate if you want to properly pass on costs to modify behavior.
This is stupid. A few food carts shouldn’t be costing anyone tens of thousands of dollars. I’m a democrat and even I know this is government over-reach.
Just to put things in perspective, the fees assessed were $45k. This property was purchased for $4.7mil and has an assessed market value of $9.8mil. That means these fees account for .95% of the purchased property value, or .45% of the assessed value.
Why are you, as a socialist-leaning liberal, mad at the city for funding their on-going programs (that you most likely use every single day, such as roads or sidewalks) when you should be mad at the property owner for trying to push .45% of the value of his building onto 4 small business owners?
I’m mad that the city is asking for a traffic impact study for 333 cars a day, when the number that goes through Andresen there makes 333 a rounding error.
I’m all for the city funding on going programs and I’m all for non-profits paying their fair share—heck, any share, since they barely pay anything now.
But yeah, even the city realized this was stupid, as you can tell by them reducing the fees down after a phone call to the mayor’s office.
Pretty much everyone is mad at the church. That doesn't change the fact that the amount the city was asking for is ridiculous. Thinking the amount is insane didn't preclude one from being upset at anyone else for how they handled it.
Right in that article, it's for a study...
I believe the saying goes "Cant have your cake and eat it too". We've prioritized sprawling, auto-centric development for ~75 years and now we need to have mechanisms to maintain and fund it. Well, here we are.
Cars are already taxed for their use. Businesses are already taxed for their operation. This is a one time fee so it's not about maintaining anything. The land was already developed and zoned for this type of business. So now even after all that the city wants to tack on more by saying if you open a small business on your property you have to go through significant traffic impact studies? Why? The city has already zoned it for that kind of stuff.
The city is taking the cake and eating it too...
They probably have some drug money laying around from those mexico trips anyhow
I read an article (I think it was in vanity fair) about the original pastor of that church and it was a wild ride. Tigers, drug smuggling, cartels, using heroin, son selling drugs to people going to that church…would make a pretty good movie!
So how does this institution with its oh-so-stellar past qualify to get $550K a year from our city government?
It's being made into a movie starring Christian Bale. Well, if the strike ever ends it is being made into a movie...
The city is with arbitray fees that are unfriendly to small businesses
It’s not arbitrary, it’s spelled out. The church tried to operate this without a permit for a year and was caught. They mention this in both articles
How is the church a small business? They already don’t pay taxes, now you don’t think they shouldn’t be forced to follow laws now?
Don't forget it would have cost $0 if the church did its due diligence by simply reaching out to the City’s Permit Center.
Hey, don’t be posting facts, it’ll make the people mad!!!
Chad
Did they pay any of that when the lot was used as a used car dealership/storage space?
Who knows, you should ask the city
I honestly find it skeptical 3 food carts would generate 333 new trips a day. But I'm an idiot
There’s a chance the firm that the property owner hired weren’t the best… would make sense with the other corners they’re cutting
Amen. Those fees are fucking ridiculous. How are people mad at the church instead of the greedy government?
Because this all could have been avoided if the church (which operates tax free) had just done what they were supposed to in the first place? Do you also get mad at your self when you kid doesn’t follow the rules?
Because this all could have been avoided if the church (which operates tax free)
Churches don't operate tax free when they are doing things outside of the church functions. The exact language is the activity must be "substantially related to the organization’s exempt purpose."
So running a food cart pod is still a taxable endeavor, even if it's a church doing it.
Living hope makes thousands of tax free money, yet can’t cover the cost.
Churches are a disease.
And poison
This seems like a landlord vs tenet things. Isn't living hope charging for the space? They can probably cover the fee they just don't want to and as a result they will lose that money.
Nah. The church was supposed to do all the studies and permitting before inviting tenants into their property. They messed up and now they’re trying to push their mistake into the food carts.
Still landlord vs tenet. Of course they are trying to push the expenses to the food carts. It is not like they have the food carts there for any other purpose then money. Food carts can leave if they don't like it just like they did.
*tenant
TAX THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. They're out here living like The Righteous Gemstones.
Didn’t they have a sex trafficking ring exposed by them recently??
When Churches operate a business, like being a landlord or renting out food carts spots are in fact, subject to taxes.
I doubt this church can claim that owning a food cart pod is "substantially related to the organization’s exempt purpose", which is the legal requirement for churches to not pay taxes on something.
It's a common misconception that churches being tax exempt for their religious activities, makes them blanket tax exempt. It doesn't.
Neat.
They also take people’s money in “tithing” and use it tax free.
They have plenty of cash in the coffers.
Their negligence in this matter is of their own doing. They decided instead of owning up to a mistake, to instead send it to the small businesses that can’t afford it.
Again, the only group at fault here is Living Hope.
Living Hope is at fault of course. That’s not being argued, they should have filed a permit ahead of time. But you’re again misunderstanding the legal requirements around churches finances. They can’t legally use tithing or other donations on things like costs for food cart pods. Their religious coffers are irrelevant towards the food cart business as the money is legally not fungible.
Then don’t run a side business. Stick to grifting people.
Fwiw, the New Hope Property is owned by local businessman, former county commissioner, and scam artist David Madore, who has yet to find a form of tax fraud he doesn’t enjoy.
That church ruined such a great thing by being greedy. It really sucks.
It was actually just general incompetence. They didn't know about the traffic impact costs when they leased out space to those carts. Then when they city dropped a huge ridiculous fee on the church, they tried to pass it off to the carts rather than eat that huge bill.
So shame on the church for not knowing about the fees and the process of leasing the land to the carts before making these deals.
Shame on the carts for not knowing to have language in their leases that prevent sudden huge increases
Shame on the city for dumping huge arbitrary fees on everyone forcing the carts to leave and depriving us of the food carts that anyone with stomach shouldn't having around.
Food carts are small local businesses, well the city just priced them out of our neighborhood with some bullshit 45 thousand dollars worth of traffic impact fees. Think of all the traffic there would be in the massive barren parking lot, greedy vancouver needs their cut.
Shame on the carts for not knowing to have language in their leases that prevent sudden huge increases
Since when does a lessee have much control over the terms of their lease? It's an either sign it or don't. And they aren't paying the fee regardless, that's why they're leaving.
Booooo the church
Battle ground is working on a food truck pod. If El Jefe moves here I’m going to be a fat man. I love those guys.
It’s really sad to see the downvotes for people bringing real, helpful comments including links to data in this sub.
Not to defend living hope because I detest that church and maybe I am not aware of all the details surrounding this,
but if you allowed someone to use your property to conduct business and then were hit with a fine from an external factor caused from said businesses would you not ask them to pay? That seems like a logical and fair business transaction, assuming these food trucks were not already paying a lot fee of sorts, in that case I'd say costs are split or owner accepts that risk and eats it.
Am I missing something here?
Yea, you need to read the article.
Living Hope Church invited food trucks on their property under the pretext of being fully permitted for food trucks, the food trucks operated for a full year. Then the City of Vancouver realized that Living Hope Church had not actually gone through the approval process to allow food trucks on their property, and they asked Living Hope Church to retroactively complete the process. A traffic study was done which evaluated the # of additional vehicles in the area due to the food trucks, and using a pre-existing process they then charged Living Hope Church a standardized one-time fee of approx $85k to bring them into compliance. The Living Hope Church then met with City of Vancouver and requested the fee be reduced, the CoV agreed and reduced it to approx $45k. The Living Hope Church then decided that even though it was the fee was their own responsibility and a result of their incompetence, it should be passed on to the food trucks who had rented the space in good faith (pun intended) that the church had actually done their due diligence.
The church fucked up.
What should have happened is that they contact the City of Vancouver PRIOR to ever signing a lease with the food trucks to determine what was required to allow food trucks. They would have then seen the fees and been able to either a) decide not to pursue food trucks on their property, b) pay the fee and recuperate their expenses with the food truck lease, or c) absorb it as a cost of doing business.
What they did instead was blindside a bunch of food carts who thought the church had their shit together, when they didn't.
There's a quote in the article from a City of Vancouver community development director who comes across as a bit irritated when he says: "our advice to any person who may be contemplating a new use or development should contact the city first to find out all of the applicable approvals, fees, required improvements, etc., so there are no surprises.”
This is the correct take. If I'm a landlord and I make non-permitted changes to the property I'm renting out and then get called out by the city, why would I think I have any right to charge renters for my mistake?
If Living Hope knew that they were going to get traffic impact fees, they would've probably changed the calculus of their leases and these folks might've found somewhere else to park. This is a rug pull by Living Hope.
Because you're a landlord. That's a silly question. Renters pay for everything.
Oh hey the article explains it all.... Thank you, lazy reddit between work, never a good idea.
From what I understand, the bbq guy is gone as well.
Do you or anybody else know where he may have gone? I'll miss that brisket and ribs so much... they're so good!
Pure bullshit! If churches paid taxes maybe they could say something! Nope please stay open best food carts around,, old carlot on 78th?
I hope El jefes moves somewhere west of the current location. Cause I don't wanna drive further down 4th plain lol. It's currently t 5-10 min from me :(
Nah fuck that, there's plenty of places in central/west 4th plain with quick walkup/takeout already.
If anything, this needs to move closer to Van mall, the 'Coming Summer 2021' food car pod spot near gorilla grill looks sadder and sadder every day
"Living Hope"? More like "Killing Hope".
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