I feel like breach is stronger than thoracle consultation

Thoracle just has the distinction of being the most efficient way to beat 3 players possible. It does nothing else.

Breach is obviously better than either card individually, but it doesn’t outright win the game without setup.

I feel like breach is only really stronger if you have the [[intuition]] package. Aside from that, a 3 mana win con is going to outclass it every time.

Oracle/Consultation is 3 mana “I win”. Very easy to do turn 1-2. Is in Dimir which is two of the best cEDH colors.

Breach is good but you are required to have cards in the grave or to fill it. You need loops in order to get to the actual win con. Almost always need to generate infinite treasures or mana in order to win with breach. It just isn’t as good.

The Breach line can even be a 1 card combo with Intuition if you have access to white. I prefer it to Thoracle if I play white because you can also use the Bomberman combo. Otherwise I'd say that Thoracle is better but I am not a pro player at allm

Purely as a combo, breach requires 3 cards but only 1 "bad" card ([[Brain Freeze]]) where thoracle is only 2 cards but [[demonic consultation]] and [[thassa's oracle]] are both bad.

Breach is also an engine, though. Whereas Thoracle will only ever win the game or do nothing, a "value breach" is often fine. If the game goes long enough and your deck is doing "cedh things" (fast mana, tutors), resolving breach will get you as much mana and as many tutors as you want. Winning at that point becomes trivial, pick any 2-card combo you want. This is why breach/thoracle decks often tutor for breach first, even if Thoracle is technically their win-con.

If thoracle got banned grixis+ decks wouldn't change much, they'd just use the next most efficient A/B combo. If breach got banned then decks would have to commit harder in deckbuilding to either being storm or midrange, which would be a bigger meta shift.

Intuition makes breach a 1 card combo I believe

As an enchantment and singular spell, Breach is easier to resolve. Once it has resolved, it becomes incredibly hard to interact with. However, it requires more assembly, and tutoring it essentially requires black or blue+white color identity.

Thoracle Consult is extremely compact and mana efficient, only requiring 2 cards, and essentially immune to removal. It's also already in colors that can easily tutor it.

You’re definitely correct.

The truth is that Thassa’s Oracle itself is a bad card, but Breach is almost always a good card. Thassa only does 1 thing for you, as a win combo piece, but Breach can recur anything from your graveyard. So as an individual card yes, Breach is very superior imho. I’d argue that Dualcaster Mage is also a better card than Thassa’s Oracle

No. Obv breach is very high up on power scale but totals is the single most problematic wincon in the game. 3 mana, 2 cards, literally no build around (3 slots), passively in colors that defends (counters) and searches, and extremely few meta viable ways to interact with to prevent. Even when thoracle isn't winning, the threat of it forces opponents to play around iy since it requires absolutely no set up to to achieve. Theres literally no reason to not be running thoracle combo in UB if you are trying to make the best list possible.

Breach is cool im that it goes in any red deck simply by being a functional card even without combo. But the combos itself are far weaker. Theres faaar more ways for opponents to disrupt it, you need to actually set it up, and it needs more cards and resources to go off.

I agree that breech is the stronger wincon. A very big majority of the time when your resolve breech, you just kinda win. You can often just kinda yolo it and believe you’ll get there and you probably win. Oracle/consult is also very good ofc, it’s just kinda the most clean and direct win the game button there is

Agree. Most often you win with single card cons anyway and breach is easier to assemble off naus or intuition

Breach lines are more protected, don't go all in, and it's in one of the best colors currently. Thoracle is an undeniable and compact wincon, but breach just does more without going all out.

Anyone who plays this format extensively in tournaments knows that this is true. Breach is the best win con in the format and it’s not very close.

Hard agree in most practical scenarios

Thoracle is usually more efficient as a baseline. However that is basically all it has going for it.

Breach scales far better throughout the game, and is likely to have increased resilience via protecting or assembling its own win. Or even both at the same time.

I would also argue breach tends to synergize with more good cards, which personally is a big plus for me. It helps that it literally syngizes with drawing cards and playing the game.

The real big argument for me trying to convince anyone would probably be to look at the punish of a fail use case as well. If you shove a breach win and fail, you likely are still in that game. Your Breach got countered. Oh well

There are situations where your punish for a bad Thoracle attempt is literally losing the game on the spot. Thoracle is so much less safe than breach, I'd say that alone makes Thoracle Consult an often less intimidating threat in a real game.

Breach is better because the cards individually are better and more flexible. Also the fact that they can find eachother and synergize with commonly played cards is what makes breach so good. Thoracle and consult are essentially one trick ponies on the other hand. There is a reason why Breach is banned in legacy and not oracle. And also Breach typically sees more play in vintage than Oracle does.

I think when it comes down to versatility of combos in cEDH, the only thing that sets a wincon apart from the others is the ability to win on the stack. In my experience Thoracle can win on the stack very easily if timed right, in either one of the combos it's about the ability to cheaply give you flash so you can sneak a win between interactions. Going for the win on your turn is at a slight disadvantage, giving your opponents time and resources to allocate and work together to bring you down. But if you a have card in hand, or even better a land you can activate, that gives you instant speed interaction while one of your opponents is at the tail end of their own game winning combo you'll catch the pod by surprise and have a better chance to deplete their interactions. Long story short, I don't see Breach combos winning on the stack as often and efficiently as Thoracle.

Breach has been better than Thoracle for a long time and anyone who still thinks Thoracle is better is wrong. That being said, Thoracle is still very, very good and is technically more efficient than breach, and Breach lines often end with Thoracle.

Breach has the distinction of working in pretty much any color combination including red, and it's also just an extremely powerful card even if you don't have the other pieces.

think of it like a race.

Thoracle is a shortcut

Underware breach is a short cut

Breach def the strongest card in cEDH