[Twitter / X] Steve Phelps on Increasing Horsepower
twitter.com/AveryHage/status/1729309141024342...
twitter.comPosted Nov 28, 2023, 3:28 AM UTC
160321
twitter.com"36 drivers say more power is the answer, I'm not a driver but that's wrong." Absolute tone deaf statement.
297
Or maybe there is more at play than drivers?
Like what teams want and manufacturers
I'm not saying they are making the right choice, but they aren't looking at it from a single vantage either
46
I agree with this.
Everyone sees the drivers saying it, but a lot of the times the drivers do not really know what is best
25
The drivers who own teams now are also saying it
At a certain point, you have to at least attempt to try it
When one of your biggest drivers retires and says he won't ever compete in Cup again because of numerous things (including HP), you've got a problem
46
The drivers who own teams now are also saying it
Pretty confident they said it before they owned their teams
At a certain point, you have to at least attempt to try it
Technically they have, 670 was not the original plan for HP.
Honestly HP is not the fix to the issues this car has and honestly I believe increasing it may ruin the intermediate package that we have
-5†
Think of all the drivers that were pushing for progressive banking at Bristol back in the early 2000’s for instance
8
Yeah. People love to parrot what "the drivers are saying"...but the reality is, most of the best drivers (and maybe even especially some of the best) really just don't have a clue about how the cars really work. The engineering behind it all is basically witchcraft to them. Kyle Larson comes to mind as being very open to admitting he doesn't know the first thing about how any of this stuff works. Incredibly talented natural wheelman. Not an expert engineer. Most of these drivers couldn't change a fuckin' sparkplug if their life depended on it.
That's not even a bad thing. Not their pig, not their farm. They're paid to be experts at driving the cars real fast. That's what their role is. That, and providing basic feedback within a rubric more or less laid out by the actual crew and engineers who have to figure things out.
At the end of the day...blindly following the rabble of drivers on something they are definitively not experts in, is a foolish thing to do. They ultimately know as little about the "behind the scenes" engineering and testing that goes into this stuff as Phelps.
The difference is...Phelps is speaking about something he doesn't know personally, but he's doing so in a capacity as the mouthpiece for actually qualified engineers and specialists, as well as high level industry contacts and manufacturer partners.
It's easy for a driver to just sit in their racing seat and scream, "more pooooowwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!"
That doesn't make it a fully informed perspective. That comes more from the top brass of NASCAR who not only hear the drivers shrieking about "more horsepower" and fans parroting that blindly...but they also hear from experts and critical other stakeholders who actually make the sport function. Phelps is an idiot, but he's just the mouthpiece for more qualified individuals. That's his job.
3†
It's funny how you don't then take the expert logic and apply it to drivers saying "if you want a better products, give us more power." Engineers aren't expert drivers. OEMs arent expert drivers. Steve Phelps isn't an expert driver. Almost like you're looking down upon them as children who don't know better when they are ultimately the people responsible for the end product.
1
But, see, actually having this level of insight would require actual thought, and that's what the "derp the drivers want it so therefore it's the only possible thought" people can't quite manage.
8
Or maybe there is more at play than drivers?
Then he can say that instead of just brushing off all the drivers
-4†
He's not saying it won't work. He's saying that it can't be their path because it's too expensive. They are heavy in cost cutting right now. If something is too expensive then it's not a solution. Seems easy enough to understand.
3
Except that's false because more than enough people at the engineering level have said it costs more to squeeze 3HP or half a tenth out of a car than it does to find 80HP or three tenths out of a car. It's fairly obvious there is other reasoning behind why they don't want to increase power and they just don't want to talk about it because reasons.
It's like a fat guy insisting diet and exercise won't work. You know outside of the 0.1% chance there's some special circumstance you don't know about and he won't tell you about...he's probably just lying.
2
Every single driver is saying it, the fans want it, yet Steve Phelps is THAT insistent that adding more HP won’t work?
Are they still trying to chase after a fourth OEM that won’t come?
283
Especially when the drivers and teams have already said lower horsepower hasn’t decreased engine spending.
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lower horsepower hasn’t decreased engine spending
How much would higher horsepower increase engine spending? I think that's the thing the teams are trying to avoid.
36
That’s fair, but when it costs the same to do 750 as it does 650 and 550, why not make them the best possible option for value, racing and entertainment?
58
There would be an upfront cost to procure parts and test the engines to ensure durability and optimization. Over the long run, it should be marginally cheaper as lower horsepower means each individual horsepower is that much more important, and builders will pour more money and resources to find a couple or a few units of power.
Doug Yates, Tim Cindric, and others have mentioned this. In fact, when NASCAR first cut horsepower in 2015, Yates said it was by far the most expensive year he had not just because of the new parts, testing, etc., for the lower horsepower, but also because of the increased need to more strenuously research, build, and test that much more just to squeeze out a few more horsepower.
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Denny Hamlin also echoed this sentiment on his podcast. He said that they spend more on engines now trying to find those small amounts of horsepower.
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It increases the cost of
1
Are they still trying to chase after a fourth OEM that won’t come?
As much as I would like it, what manufacturer would actually be viable? They have to be one or more of:
- Wanting that audience that NASCAR has
- Wants to be associated with NASCAR
- Willing to develop a few cars for it
- Willing to do it with NASCAR's engine regulations
There's obviously many brands that could but how many would actually want it? Dodge is trying to hard pivot into an EV market they aren't ready for (and hasn't have a race presence at all for years now), Honda could but they are probably more interested in Formula Cars, Nissan might be applicable but probably aren't willing to. Every other manufacturer that might be able to is going into Touring Cars instead.
18
I really need to see an inconsiderate rookie crashing other drivers in a Nissan Altima in the Xfinity series before I die.
16
Nissan has no money, if this was the mid 2000s I could definitely see them being interested especially because Toyota was getting in right at that time too.
The only company I’ve seen who has money and is looking for sports/racing opportunities and is still developing gas engines rather than wholesale jumping into EVs is the Hyundai/Kia/Genesis group.
2
The EV concept for oval racing will never come to fruition imo
4
The reason F1 went to hybrid engines is what NASCAR is running into now: it's just not that commercially viable for a new engine supplier to come into a racing series on a fully ICE power supply. The value is in showing off the greener engine tech can still have high performance. It's one thing if you're like GM and Ford and you've had a presence forever, or you're Toyota and you spent a ton of money already to make yourself more American friendly. There's no upside to this for any other potential partner.
And now NASCAR is looking up and seeing Ford and GM join up with F1 so they can show off green performance. It's a massive bag fumble.
1
Easy. GM could be the fourth.
1
What’s the relationship between horsepower and a fourth OEM?
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The reason the horsepower is what it is right now is because apparently Toyota can't make a reliable engine with more power than we have now. If a new manufacturer was interested in coming to Nascar, and we bump the horsepower up, it may deter new manufacturers from being interested.
33
I think toyota of 2023 would be a different story , they couldn’t keep an open engine together when they first entered nascar
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Even as recent as 2013-14, they had races they were dominating then had an engine blow up near the end. I remember Kenseth and Truex having a few blown motors in races they should have won around then.
12
Hey for the first 3/4 of those races no one could keep up with them though.
1
That's been Toyota's excuse since 2014!!
If you can't make a reliable engine then leave the sport if it's too hard to build engines that are 900 plus HP.
8†
Toyota isn't why we have less HP, that's just the narrative people want to run with.
NASCAR has wanted to go with less HP for a while. They even thought about it back in 2001. They made the decision to do it around the same time Toyota started having engine issues so everyone blames Toyota.
Thing is, we have only ever had 1 season with 900+ HP and fans hated it then
25
Thanks! I feel a little like I should’ve known that lol
1
I can't see a 4th OEM joining and making a NA pushrod V8 that's been choked down. They're barely road relevant.
1
Toyota's only the richest car company in the world. Can't expect them to compete with Ford and GM unless the playing field is artificially leveled.
-4†
I think the OEMs have told them no. Or at least one of them.
3
He’s straight up not listening to his fanbase yet thinking he’s going to get more fans. The fans want to see drivers blow the tires off the car in the first 10 laps of a run then suffer because of it.
2
At this point, I think it makes zero sense for another manufacturer to come in when the others will have at least three years experience with the new car on the track. A new manufacturer would automatically be three years behind everybody else on day 1. Maybe they make up some ground or maybe they don’t, but that’s a huge hole to dig out of.
1
Phelps really is out of touch.
1
They're trying to chase me to Indycar
1
BcUz MoR hOrSePoW3r XsPeNsIvEe
-1
"I'm not wrong, the drivers are wrong"
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The guy is such a clown
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I honestly have no idea and I certainly don’t know the whole picture like Steve does but I feel like the lower horsepower we run the more expensive it is when it comes to development because you’re spending a lot trying to find 1 horsepower because it makes such a difference when the actual horsepower number is lower. If you have 900 horsepower you’re not trying to find 1-2 horsepower all the time. Personally I do think it would help the short tracks and road courses to have more power but I could be wrong, to me if you take shifting away it makes it even worse because now we’re in a even lower rpm range where we never spend the tires. Right now I feel like when the short tracks are the best it’s when the tires start wearing out and we start finally spinning the tires some.
82
I feel like the lower horsepower we run the more expensive it is when it comes to development
Your engine builder, among others, has stated exactly this for the very reasons you specified
30
And this alone should be reason enough to take the damn spacers off but of course Steve has the manu's hands up his ass so that aint happening. This sport desperately needs someone with some actual balls running it again.
1
Those mentor and mentee Instagram videos are finally doing something, keep speaking your mind chase! Good shit
8
Honestly, I think adding an electric motor to the short track package would be a cool experiment. For one, it has instant torque so it would spin the tires no problem and all the OEMs already have hybrid or EV programs. A 150-200hp motor, hell even just 100hp would make a noticeable difference.
2
Bingo. I would imagine it's a lot more expensive to find speed with downforce tricks than it is to find 1 or 2hp
1
This is something I hadn't really thought about. Back in the older days, I remember them putting several different engine supplier's motors on the dyno and releasing the numbers. The spread was surprisingly large
1
Here’s my issue with this. He said the SAME THING before the 670 HP test after the 550 test proved these cars would race well.
Like I get what he’s trying to say… but more horsepower LITERALLY SOLVED you last problem at everything but short tracks. Why would you dismiss it so casually as a further fix? It seems like 750-800 HP would mask most of the problems with this car almost immediately. Why be so dismissive?
73
because it's too expensive
Well, surprise that he directly said why he(and I guess the manufacturers and teams) are dismissing that solution. They are desperately trying to cut costs anyway they can because the trans have been bleeding money according to some of the other recent quotes.
8
I hope that is a “Drunken Steve Phelps” parody account because that’s the stupidest sh*t I’ve ever read. This guy should not be at the helm with such a fundamentally bad take.
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The drivers have said it’s not that expensive. We’re not asking for 900. Just give us 750 back.
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The motor builders have also said it’s not more expensive.
36
Aren't the engines still built for 750, they just choke them down with the spacer?
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They are built around the spacer so not really
12
750 is with a spacer to. We've raced with spacers since 2015 when HP was reduced from 900+. Engines have not changed in a long time, only the spacer size has.
11
They are still running the same engine builds. They are optimized for the current spacer configuration. Engine builders still have all the notes, data, etc to un-nerf these exact engines and get them tuned to any horsepower configuration they’ve run in the past (550, 750, unrestricted, etc.)
7
The engines are the same builds used in 2013 prior to the introduction of the tapered spacer. They are now optimized for the new spacer configuration. Costs generally go up as horsepower goes down, and teams are still running the same engines, just choked essentially.
9
The exact same engines that made 900+ horsepower in 2014 as far as the internals and such go. Now I’m sure head porting and a lot of things have changed due to the fight to eke out 1 horsepower has never been greater. The thing is Roush Yates,Hendrick,and Toyota probably still have all the information and design cues on exactly how they built the 900 horse behemoths back in 2014. Phelps and O Donnell just have this fake BS pipe dream of bringing in another manufacturer when it’s not going to happen.
1
One has said it isn't, another one said it essentially is
3
Even 700 would be a blessing at this point.
8
I feel like 750 would be fantastic with this car.
1
The drivers have said it’s not that expensive
How would they know? The drivers aren't the ones writing the checks.
-3†
A few drivers are owners...
9
Listen to any driver or owner who has actually discussed the engine bills, they have not gone down. Ask Tim Cindric, who has stated that costs actually increase as horsepower is decreased since the small details become so much more important.
6
Source?
I've heard people say that the cheapest solution to going faster is horsepower. I've never heard people say that more horsepower is overall cheaper with a spec car.
-1
"Am I so out of touch? No! It's the drivers who are wrong!"
37
Phelps is such an awful leader, he might actually have the potential to somehow be worse than Brian France.
31
This is recency bias.
4†
That’s the most brain dead answer I’ve ever heard. He can’t be that outta the loop. I bet you 1000% He’s playing it down so in a couple of years when they try to introduce some hybrid system, they’ll give that hybrid system 900 horsepower and say some bs like ‘Well y’all been begging for more horsepower so this is the best way to get it to keep cost down for the teams’ hoping the more horsepower will help people buy into the hybrid system.
30
Bingo. He’s a drama queen. He creates drama so that he can swoop in later to “fix” the fictitious issue he created.
14
I believe it, how else can you drum up interest in a hybrid system that 70% of the fan base does not want or is skeptical of?
17
Sounds like the government lol 😂
9
If they still sound like normal cars then I’m all for it. Bring on the hybrids.
3
You hit the nail on the head this is exactly the plan.
2
What a fucking idiot
26
“I don’t think the answer is more touchdowns because more offensive talent is expensive,” Goodell said. “If you ask a coach what’s going to win the game, they’re always going to say ‘Give me more touchdowns.’ It’s a thing. I’m not a coach, but I’ve listened to enough coaches and that’s their solution. So the question is is that really what it is? I don’t know. I think there’s some rugby-style punting that we’re looking at as well. Some field position things.”
26
He sounds like the NFL Commish when he says he has heard from NFL players that like turf better than real grass.. The media has yet to find one player and the Commish has not offered up their names..
25
The poll came out and it was like 81% to 19% in favor of players who think turf is a real issue. So there are some. Even though that’s overwhelming enough to just use real grass.
Cheap ass owners.
18
The funny thing is I didn't see any players say on Social Media they preferred it.. Not saying they aren't out there. Haven't seen them on sports shows saying as much either..
4
Social media and sports shows are not real life — they don’t really represent anything lol
1†
Oh but they do at times..
1†
Let’s face it, we need a racer running the sport. Not some sports corporate nut job.
23
He’s a former NFL marketing executive, which is exactly why he shouldn’t be running Nascar.
3
Why does NASCAR care how expensive it is, we know the cop out answer but we aren't getting any new manufacturers and if they can't make the engine that's their problem. The owners are going spend the money regardless
23
This guy sucks. Been saying it for years. So frustrating.
21
I don’t know why these nascar meatheads ever speak. They never ever ever ever say anything that makes any sense and just makes them look like the idiots we all know they are
20
We need to get this bozo the hell away from NASCAR. I don’t care what we have to do to achieve that, it just has to be done.
20
This moron is a bigger idiot than Brian France
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https://preview.redd.it/ylnv8rusf03c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99cbe9cee4db410531b6a62f3c6881c8a767d43b
Is that real?
It's a real tweet Jr made but not in response to Phelp's comment here
Yes. It was originally a response to Doug Coby complaining about eSports.
He's a driver of course he's gonna say that
/s