Introducing the new [Support] tag
We have always strived to keep r/TwoXChromosomes a welcoming forum for open discussion and advice. We discuss many controversial issues here, and welcome all points of view.
However, r/TwoXChromosomes also serves as a space for our users to find comfort and support through a variety of hard times in their lives. It is extremely important to us that we provide a supportive and comforting atmosphere to these users. Criticisms of individual users and their decisions is not welcome.
In order to facilitate differenciating between threads that welcome debate and threads that don't, we are introducing the voluntary [Support] tag. Users that wish to post here for unqualified support and comfort may now tag their submission title with [Support], which will indicate that this is a thread for providing comfort and support, not a thread for open discussion. [Support] tags are to be used only for self posts, article links may not be tagged with a [Support] tag.
Posts marked with the [Support] tag will be subject to stricter moderation. Any comments that could be construed as criticism or judgement of the OP or their choices will be removed in [Support] threads. This is not a change in moderation policy, but a clarification of what we'd already been attempting to do in an unstructured way.
Examples:
In a thread titled [Support] I had an abortion yesterday, comments suggesting that abortion is wrong will be removed. Comments suggesting that the OP made the wrong choice will be removed. Comments extoling the virtues of adoption will be removed.
In a thread titled If I get pregnant, should I have an abortion?, comments suggesting that abortion is wrong are welcome, comments suggesting that abortion is right are welcome, comments extoling the virtues of adoption are welcome, comments criticizing the adoption process are welcome.
Regardless of what type of thread you are posting in, please always remember rule #1 in our sidebar:
Respect: No hatred, bigotry, assholery, misogyny, misandry, transphobia, homophobia, racism or otherwise disrespectful commentary. Please follow reddiquette.
Happy tagging!
Posted May 20, 2014, 7:34 PM UTC · edited
I like this idea but what do we do about posts where thoughtful, polite, and constructive dissent or advice is welcome but not the kind that goes "as a man, let me present some anecdotal evidence as to why you're wrong to feel this way"?
We're VERY open to suggestions about this one - we have a number of terrible ideas, but no good ones.
For the most part, I've been sticking with downvote and ignore.
How about taking us off default status??
Please be honest. Hypothetically, what would it take for you mods to decide to remove us as a default sub? Or is that not an option whatsoever?
First off, I'd like to reinforce that the problems discussed in this thread, such as derailing/unsupportive comments in support threads, and comments like "as a man, let me present some anecdotal evidence..." are a problem that this subreddit has been struggling with long before we were added to the defaults, and have been growing with the subreddit. Removing us from the defaults would slow down growth, but not stop it, so these are problems we have to solve regardless.
That said, our opinion that having a publicly visible women's space is important for the reddit community and women at large. We are willing to make ourselves that space provided that we can maintain the standards of a supportive and welcoming space long-term. To this end, we're taking in community concerns regarding troll and derailing activity, participation, gender-positive discourse, creepy PMs, voting patterns, etc. We're keeping tabs on all those things as the subreddit returns to a new baseline, in order to determine what the long-term effects will be. We're watching various kinds of traffic, essentially.
As all of these things normalize, a much clearer picture emerges of what we can expect as a default subreddit going forward. Is the faster growth and higher visibility of the userbase generating more trolling and filth than we can keep up with? If the numbers that we had seen the first day had held steady much longer than it did, the answer would be "definitely, get us out of here".
As it is, we're not sure yet. Many things have gone back down to manageable levels, but some have not. Random in-thread profanity trolling and the like is back down to workable levels. Some things (like hopefully negative comments in support threads) we can address with a more targeted moderation strategy and more mods. Others, like nasty PMs, have seen a secondary spike recently because of frontpage attention, and we're working on strategies to deal with them. Some things, like in-thread derailment, are a deeper, harder to root out problem. We don't have a line in the sand, but we are having constant discussions about whether we can deal with these effects, and our opinions are mixed.
Like you, we're very wary of the long-term effects that being a default might bring. We trust that, like us, you're not against being a default on principle, only scared for the community. We're on the same page.
My problem is that I'm not seeing this. The mods might actually feel that way, but it isn't transparent at all. I think a lot of people feel like their safe-space was hijacked without ever having had their opinion asked. I was under the impression that this was a community of people working together. What I feel it actually is now is a group of people making decisions without ever consulting the community. It was never put to the community to discuss whether or not default status was a good idea. I have yet to see a poll that would gauge how subscribers to the subreddit actually feel. Instead we're being told what to do.
I don't think there's any amount of policing by the mods that will help this situation. This is no longer a safe space for many, many readers. At the very least, a poll of the community should have been done BEFORE default status was put in place. As it stands now, there is no way to take that poll because of the influx of new readers. Honestly, I'm just incredibly, incredibly disappointed in the way this was handled.
EDIT: Wanted to add that some of the anger and frustration that people are expressing about the switch to default comes from a sense of betrayal. And we've gotten no apology, no admittance that this wasn't handled well, no attempt to backtrack to non-default status(at least not that I've seen.) This is what many subscribers to the sub are looking for and are extremely frustrated that they haven't seen. We were betrayed by the very people we trusted to keep this a safe space.
It sounds like you guys are willing to toss the members to the wolves for the greater good. Once offensive, sexist and other comments are made and read, it's already created the bad atmosphere. Coming in to clean them up a couple hours or a day later is irrelevant if a rape victim already read a comment telling her she's a liar and a slut. Yes, these things happened on occasion before but now it happens a lot more.
I want to trust you when you say you're taking community concerns into account, so may I suggest much stricter moderation, à la creepyPMs or AskHistorians? There are so many threads discussing sensitive, personal topics like rape and assault that get interjected with "well-meaning" comments that are extremely upsetting to both OPs and users who might be triggered by them. And quite often, the comments either aren't deleted, aren't deleted quickly, or don't result in a ban. I would much prefer a mod team that was too heavy with the banhammer rather than too light. Granted, you'll probably need many more mods in order to make this work, but that's true anyway now that this place is a default.
I just wanted to say that I was really pleased when I found out that TwoX has become a default sub, for just that reason. I feel like it's a step in the right direction for reddit as a whole.
If TwoX can't survive as a default sub, that makes me very sad for the world at the moment.
…to help reddit whitewash its deeply misogynistic culture to an unsuspecting public?
How? I could help my local Klan chapter advertise itself as a meetup for knitting enthusiasts, but I don’t see how that helps anyone.
thank you for hanging in there, mods, and not letting this sub get ripped to threads during the transition (as has happened to many other subs where the mods gave up as they defaulted).
[deleted]
[deleted]
IMO this community is ruined forever. Better to just jump ship at this point.
I'm new here, but I'm seeing a LOT of posts that have nothing wrong with them being downvoted below 0, and hiding them from a lot of posters. I imagine these trolls are probably blanket-downvoting everything in here as well as making awful comments. I kind of want to make a self-post asking people to be more liberal with upvotes for the actual good posts here, but I'm really new here and don't want to be the one to do it. I post on another subreddit that has a HUUUUGGEE problem with trolls coming in from other areas of reddit and downvoting everything in the sub, and we have a friendly "upvote everything that isn't shit" kind of policy.
That's what I've been doing. Making the votes rain.
The problem is that some people, despite everything—despite years of history, despite well-publicized incidents of redditry, despite reddit having become a punchline across the internet for throwaway jokes about creeps and rapists—some people still somehow think of reddit as an open, welcoming community. Do you understand how insane this is? Nobody thinks this about Stormfront, for example.
The only way to help these people is to make sure that everyone, not just the savvier and more internet-aware, comes to know the truth about reddit and redditors. This site must become known to the public as Stormfront plus misogyny. Starve it of ad revenue; ensure no publicist would dream of sending their clients here for AMA’s. Leave reddit to redditors and redditors only. That’s why I upvote all the redditry, and you should too.
Yeah, how do comments like "I see what you mean, but maybe your coworker/boyfriend/mom was thinking this" fit into the rule? For instance there was a recent thread about a woman who's father invited his new girlfriend to go dress shopping with her. She was very mad at her dad, but found it helpful when people said "your dad may have thought this was a good idea and would be nice for you"
[Support] threads are the online equivalent of when your friend is going through a rough patch and asks you for a shoulder to cry on and some positive words.
Sometimes in such a situation, you might give some friendly advice/context your friend might have missed, and that's probably ok here too. Use your judgement and proceed with caution.
Where it becomes not ok is when it crosses the line from "hey, here's some extra information that might help you be less upset about this" into "you're wrong to be upset/you're a bad person/you did something wrong"
Does that make sense?
How about a filter that whenever someone submits a comment containing "as a man" or "as a guy", a pop-up box shows up asking if their comment is respectful and supports women's perspective, as per the purpose of this subreddit. If they click yes then they can still comment. It doesn't block their comments but may make them think twice.
Hmm, maybe
I could also wish that the popup would send a notice to the mods as well, but I'm afraid that would over flow your inboxes.
Sorry to reply to a day-old post, but have you thought of something like MUA or creepyPMs constructive criticism tags? In MUA it's CCW, and the mods are really on top of make sure everything is constructive. In creepyPMs, it's CAW (constructive advice welcome), and the mods stay on top of that one too. It might be way too much work for you guys, but I know it works in those subreddits.
It depends on the post, and why people are upset.
If they're upset that they have to stop and explain things to a someone, a tag like [no teaching] could let people know that we only want a discussion of the topic at hand in this post. If you have a question about something the OP said, ask it elsewhere. For example, if someone was trying to figure out what to do about their transphobic neighbor, and they were getting replies like "what is trans anyway?" or "why not just dress like a girl so they stop?"
If they're upset that someone is invalidating their opinion, then like someone else mentioned, that seems like it goes against the rules anyway. I've seen lots of posts where someone asks a questions like "my boyfriend said this, am I right to be mad?" So naturally, you get a lot of posts that say "yes, what a jerk" and some that say "no, think about it this way." No problems, people are discussing the topic and helping put things in perspective. But you get a problem when you see the no posts that go on to say something like "and you're stupid for even thinking that way." When it gets insulting or tries to invalidate, I feel that's just against rules 1 and 3. That's up to users to report, and mods to remove.
But some people seem really upset at the mere idea that men post here. Sure, sometimes guys derail things, but I feel like there's also been a vocal movement lately of women who are completely derailing things by always bringing up that they dislike the few guys who are disruptive. If people hate the idea that much, then I feel they could take it upon themselves to make a [women only] tag for their post. People who want everyone's opinion are free to enjoy 2X the way it is, people who are that worried about the "what about menz" comments don't have to get any more of those comments on their posts.
Maybe those that want to use the tag but also wouldn't mind getting advice, opinions, or a different perspective can tag the post and then specify that they are looking for helpful, relevant, polite and thoughtful advice only and not a debate or criticism of their choices. A good rule might be that advice/dissent/opinions can be offered in a tagged post only if 1. the OP asks and 2. It is something helpful and appropriate that a reasonable person might say to someone they cared about who was going through the same thing. For example, a post about rape where the OP does not want to report. Someone respectfully explaining the positives that could come from reporting, while not attacking her decision not to, would be an example of constructive advice. Someone telling the OP that they think rape victims are obligated to report their rape to prevent it from happening to others, is a comment better suited to a debate thread because it attacks her choices. The need for this tag has not arisen out of 2Xers dislike of open discussion or inability to handle differing opinions but rather that nobody likes to be attacked, insulted, or pointlessly debated with when they are trying to work through an issue. With a rule like this, I think we could weed out the comments that hurt people without filtering out the good advice that can come from an open discussion. Just my humble opinion. I realize this is probably way easier said than done.
Respectful advice (such as you might give a friend who comes to you for support) is still welcome, even in support threads.
Missed the comment you already made about this, sorry. Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense.
I think that falls under a violation of rules 1 and 3. It invites gender generalization and it tells someone their feelings are wrong, when no reasonable argument can be made that feelings are ever subject to the categories of right and wrong.
The post should be removed and the person should feel free to find a way of stating his views that is more respectful and avoids the generalization that "as a man" represents a class of thinkers that are relevant to the issue at hand.
Report the comments that don't adhere to the rules just like any other post
[deleted]
New here. What's wrong with "as a man?"
Thanks.
leedlebug answers this question here.
I'll be sure to keep my posts relevant then.
Comments that start with "as a man" often fall into one of two categories
If your gender isn't relevant to your statement, we don't need to know whether you're male, female, genderqueer, agender or a space alien.
This is a forum for women's thoughts and experiences. Our users don't post here to get perspectives on what men find sexually attractive or socially appropriate - there are many other subreddits for that.
Of course, there are some circustances where pointing out your gender might be relevant, but before posting a comment/post that starts with "as a man" think carefully about whether it is a)relevant to the rest of the statement and b) relevant to the subreddit.
[deleted]
Nothing.
You can't have the former without admitting the later.
Part of what is at issue in discussions is whether responses are constructive. Even poorly made responses can nevertheless contain something that aids discussion, solicits a further response that clarifies an issue or illuminates a truth.
You can't aim at a constructive discussion and rule out potentially fallacies replies ahead of time. The best thing is to point out fallacies as they are made.
On your specific example:
This place isn't always about "discussion," whatever that is. If the "discussion" breaks the rules in the sidebar to your right (and I believe that some of this is a community value, what is deemed respectful here is up to the mods)...then it goes.
It doesn't even matter if it "adds" or "subtracts" to the "discussion." I think it should be clear, (which your post is not), well-reasoned and free of drama-inducing generalizations.
I disagree that feelings can be wrong (which system of ethics are you coming from anyway? Kantian, surely not...Aristotelian, surely not. I have never, in any science or philosophy, seen any reputable person say that feelings can be wrong. They can be weak or strong, they can be transient or enduring.
But the domain of right and wrong is about action, not feelings. If you can't understand a simple distinction (between action and feeling), while I think you are welcome to continue posting, I also think you're going to get a lot of pushback.
As to "pertinence," you'd have to establish that the class of "being man" had meaningful relevance first. Not all men have the same beliefs, feelings, or views about things. To say otherwise is non-rational, and well, very close to baiting if the person you're responding to is already in an emotional state (which I assume you are not particularly good at discerning, given what you've said here so far).
[deleted]
"Free speech" allows you to voice your mind without being legally persecuted for your opinions.
It does not imply that every person needs to let you into their house when they are upset so that you can tell them that their feelings are wrong.
I don't think you can label the actual feelings of disgust as right or wrong, no. Why would you? Personally, I believe that the switches for what people find disgusting are, in part, genetically set (see Chomsky's views on this, he's not far off). So, while I think that people who feel disgusted at seeing X in public are sad (I start feeling sad), there is no instant billborad in my head that says THEY ARE WRONG or THEY ARE BAD. No, instead I feel sad, and, if they make their disgust really known, I feel irritated. My feeling irritated does not make something else wrong - I need more than my feelings to make such a judgment.
To me, right and wrong are judgments, I am not sure what you think they are (I'm guessing, reading between lines, that you think they are feelings). I do not think they are feelings.
Similarly, notions of validity, truth, sound argumentation and the like do not apply to feelings.
Feelings flare up in the brain in the limbic system in complex ways. How we connect up to those cognitively is a separate issue, the feelings just are. They are there.
I don't really care (no feeling involved) if you feel that some part of my post detracts from another part. You're not using the word "valid" in a way that's familiar to me, so you're using it in your own way - which is cool, but I certainly do not know what you mean by it. To me it's a construct from statistics, and my comments are not related to statistical norms - or to argumentation.
I'm just stating some observations and feelings.
This is why making this subreddit a default was an awful mistake.
Please stop, the horse is already dead.
If you feel something is a derail and not worth replying to, don't reply to it and move on. Downvote if it makes you feel better. The mods are not here to protect you from every annoying thing on the internet.
Certainly one approach.