Source
r/SSBM•
FBIorange

Can Marth reaction tech chase?

So, obviously Marth can chain-grab off upthrow on spacies. Does Marth have any reaction chain-grab potential on characters who are forced to tech from his forward/back/down throw? There is a lot of information online about reaction tech chasing with Shiek and Captain Falcon, but I can't find anything on Marth (its always just about his upthrow). Is the lack of discussion because it is impossible or just really difficult? I would think that Marth could do this because of his long grab and dash range. The only thing else I can think of is that his throws don't put the opponent in to enough lag before the tech.

Thanks for considering :)

Posted Nov 5, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

1645
TheJetFuelmelt•

Marth can definitely reaction tech chase.

As you said, the long dash and grab make it really effective.

If you watch Mango, he uses fsmash to tech chase and the fact that it has a large disjoint makes it work well.

Something I do is dtilt tech chase. You can often get a grab from it, and it covers options like tech in place shine.

21
FBIorangeOP•

Awesome! Why do you think there is little discussion on this compared to Shiek's down-throw "wobble" hype (that I can find)? Can Marth pull off reaction chain-grab tech chases on fox (not up-throw)?

5
Crawfiishhax$•

One, it's unexplored. Two, Marth already has up throw stuff so it just seems unnecessary to a lot of people

16
FBIorangeOP•

I only ask because it seems like it's hardest to pull off on fox, not because I think it's viable. Looks like I have some exploring to do!

4
Crawfiishhax$•

Oh it's definitely super viable, but the question is whether it's worth it to work on it or to just focus on easier stuff that has more use like microsituations in the neutral game

3
TheJetFuelmelt•

It's can definitely be pulled off with fox but the question is why would you want to go for the tech chase when you can up throw over and and over again.

I normaly opt for the up throw and then start tech chasing when I drop the chain grab.

With players like m2k, they don't drop chain grabs so they don't need to tech chase. However mango doesn't chain grab so he tech chases alot more instead.

Tech chases can also be good for floaties, but fthrow juggle is also a really potent option.

7
beatlemania123•

Would it make sense to try to go for it on a non-FD stage? Having a pseudo-chaingrab on something like Battlefield sounds nice.

12
TheJetFuelmelt•

It definitely would. However it cannot replace upthrows on spacies. Even with the platforms, upthrow uptilt is a really powerful tool. Platform combos can still be very useful too.

That being said, it does open up new possibilities when those pesky platforms get in the way.

I was playing friendlies with PPU at paragon and I remember seeing him backthrow (or down, don't remember) chaingrab a puff on FoD using tech chases.

2
Han_Solo_Burger•

Platform tech chases with Utilts and aerials is more effective than tech chasing.

1
QonBelkini•

Oh Mango definitely chain grabs with Marth. Or at least he tries to. He needs work on it for sure.

1
TheJetFuelmelt•

He mostly utilts and stops

The regrabs are from tech chasing.

1
FBIorangeOP•

What does fthrow juggle refer to?

1
TheJetFuelmelt•

Fair fair fair fair fair

Or

Uair uair uair uair uair

6
fjdkslan•

Watch Dart play against Falcon, he's super good at reaction tech chasing in that matchup. Also, reaction tech chasing is really good for when you drop a chain grab against Fox in certain situations

3
squatheavyeatbig•

Sheik's dthrow and techchases are boring because they're slow Ganon's dthrow chaingrab is like the same shit but it's fast so it's cool

-4
basedbrawl•

I find it super easy vs falcon

poor falcon

17
FBIorangeOP•

Definitely have noticed this too. It's hard for me to tell in practice if I've grabbed before falcon/other characters can spot dodge. Fox is nice to practice with because he usually shines asap in 20xx. Wish other characters could do the same with spot dodge.

5
theGravyTrainTTK•

Using the frame counter in 20XX you can probably have a characters percent show how many frames the CPU stands still. I can't explain how to set it up though since I haven't used it yet. There is a video on the smashboards thread explaining how it works.

3
4lulzzzzzzz•

U can see Druggedfox doing it with marth pretty clearly to extend dropped chaingrabs, or start one from any knockdown. Its kind of an insurance against dropping it at the difficult percents if ur ready to techchase right after.

9
FBIorangeOP•

Very good point

2
sanspeau•

it's largely percent and stage position dependent

down throw while facing towards center has very good results almost always, due to either getting them in an easy to react tech roll in, or putting them in crappy stage position if they do anything else. if you're close to the ledge when you do this, all options besides DI off stage are coverable by grab

fthrow works at higher percents by giving marth more time to get to their landing location. again, being closer to the edge makes this way better

if they go too far aka their percent wasn't high enough or they had too much stage, then you should not try to grab. dtilt, and wait for rolls and jumps towards center

3
TheChocolateLavaMYBU•

Watch westballz marth at the last SS vs the vegas falco

3
danielvutran•

not that difficult (considering in comparison to other tech chases [falcon]), i can even do it pretty reliably (25-30% total) on 20XX fox on FD. but ya it's a matter of why not just upthrow instead lmao. there's a reason why it's "unexplored", even though it's really not. it's more so just people know that uthrow is better. kinda like asking why does no one use Toad as Peach or Sing as Jigglypuff. they're not really unexplored, ppl just found out why it's bad or not as good as other options lmao

2
Prozaki•

It's only bad against spacies really. Check out Dart! vs. Darkrain/Wizzrobe.

2
meleebro•

No, people are bad at reacting and setting up a position to react from, so they are inconsistent with it. It is the guaranteed followup that sets you up for the EXACT same situation but with them at higher and easier %s to follow up from.

2
meleebro•

Marth can 100% do it vs all the fast fallers and most mid weights. Watch any match of DruggedFox's marth or even PPMD at Apex vs Leffen and Armada, he often opts for the dthrow/fthrow tech chase at low percents when he is close to a platform on Battlefield/DL because it is still guaranteed and utilt and uair don't profitably knockdown or combo until 20-30%. The techchase vs falcon is very strong too as you can force him to the ledge or get him to utilt or instant uair range off uthrow. The optimal punish on sheik is to dthrow techchase until they are at the guaranteed percents for uthrow as well, but it is very tight.

I suggest watching videos of DruggedFox's marth and seeing:

  1. When and how he acts out of the throw animation (dash vs WD)
  2. How far he is going with this movement
  3. When he reacts to what the opponent chose to do
  4. The spacings with which he alters his movement and when it is done in reaction to the opponent's action
  5. What options did he threaten to limit their potential options (say he is spaced so he can walk forward and tipFsmash the tech roll away or in place, or he could dtilt the tech roll away.

There is a balance of when you dash, when you alter your dash by reacting to their option, and holding patterns that allow you to react comfortably without moving too far away or too close.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
FBIorangeOP•

Answer my question with respect to non spacies please, marths up throw regrabs on spacies are common knowlege and I mentioned it in my post.

1
f1predictions•

you can tech chase falcon on reaction with f-throw in exactly the same way that sheik can with down throw, from 10% to ad infinitum. Nobody does it though.

1
meleebro•

DFox does

2
f1predictions•

you have to read the tech away on the down throw, f throw is much better because it doesn't send the opponent as far. Down throw is only better in corners

2
ScizorKicksHUNK•

i think you misread him

7
f1predictions•

i think so too

9
24095827059827502984<3IC•

Marth can reaction techchase himself and Yoshi for sure. It is very useful in the Yoshi MU. He can probably techchase Fox and maybe Falco. Sheik is unlikely, but idk. I know for sure that if Falcon DIs away and techs away on downthrow, you cannot cover it on reaction.

1
meleebro•

You can 100% do it vs sheik and any uthrow or fthrow before 18% is just lazy or too close to the edge of the stage.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Sycorax83•

Maybe. Kadano and others talk about it in this facebook thread

1
Kadano•

Link doesn’t work for me. Even though I’m still part of the group (unsubscribed though).

… Which is why I wasn’t a fan of using FB groups for this from the start. Smashboards is #1 for discussing Melee. (Not Reddit because you can’t reply after six months.)

1
Sycorax83•

It's kinda sad but I think SB is dying :'(

1
Kadano•

In 2009, many thought Melee was dying. If enough contributors get active on smashboards again, it could see a return.

1
Mahie7•

Not only is it feasible on Falcon, it's the go-to punish when you get a grab on him, unless you're at very specific %s for uthrow.

Throw him towards whichever ledge is closer, techchase, do it again, repeat until close to the ledge, then throw him out.

1
XrmyProf•

Honestly you can tech chase with any character, but not necesarily on reaction.

I think Marth can on reaction, but frankly I would not advise this against spacies, as even if you optimized it, it is way easier and I would put money on it being more effective to chaingrab. Especially considering that spacies is not a great MU for marth on FD if you cannot CG

1
Paper-Tiger-•

Tech chasing is still valid though, especially when a space animal knows how to escape the uptilt/up air pressure after an upthrow. After a certain percent, this ceases to be an issue and they can no longer mitigate upthrow upair.

At super high percents ("Marth percent") tech chasing becomes valid once again because you can potentially get a kill move in where up throw no longer works.

1
Romaigne•

yes, Mrath can obv reaction techchase any character! Real talk: I've seen Peepee and Mango do it all the time

1