Following a bunch of cases of false rape accusations, I'm curious as to how an anarchist society would deal with this in a manner that protects innocent men from having their lives destroyed by lies. More specifically, how would a community prevent mob justice without any conclusive evidence? How would the man be protected from the social stigma that comes solely from the accusation?
Posted Dec 24, 2015, 7:16 PM UTC
You create a culture of fact checking and needing evidence. There won't be an official statement. It's just like any social rumor. Mob justice can still exist today.
You create a culture of fact checking and needing evidence.
This is the ideal. I would hope that it would be common sense but sadly there are people pushing for the accusation to be the proof. I think the only thing preventing them from getting their way as of now is the legal system.
"Innocent until proven guilty" should be widely accepted by anarchists but I'm curious as to how it will be implemented in different models.
The reason people push for "the accusation to be proof", as you put it, is that the sheer number of rapes is so huge - and a hell of a lot of them go either unreported or the rapist goes free. The justice system as it is (at least in my country) is extremely flawed, and innocent until proven guilty to often leads to freeing of people who shouldn't be.
Essentially you have 2 types of error that can happen in a court case: Type I error (false positive) and Type II error (false negative). Sending an innocent man to prison would be Type I. I'm not sure why so many leftists favor Type I error in cases of rape. If a real rapist is let free, he'll likely strike again. As unfortunate as that is, it increases the chance he'll be convicted as he should be. The innocent man, on the contrary, won't even get that chance.
The reason people push for "the accusation to be proof", as you put it, is that the sheer number of rapes is so huge
It's bad enough that so many leftists favor the Napoleonic "guilty until proven innocent" for these cases, but there definitely is a segment who wants to get rid of the "until proven innocent" part. It is absolutely the most frightening proposition I've heard in my entire life. Not only that, but it's the most anti-anarchistic thing I've ever heard as well. Do you want an actual matriarchy? Because passing that legislation would be the way to do it. It would create a horrible gender hierarchy. Cross the wrong woman, and she'll have you sent away in shackles with a snap of her fingers. The "sheer number of rapes being so huge" doesn't justify it.
is that the sheer number of rapes is so huge
False allegations could also be huge, but the truth is, we don't know.
the rapist goes free
So many "rapists" go free because there is a lack of evidence to convict them. They can be innocent or guilty and truth is, we don't know about that either.
I think we all understand that being falsely accused of any wrongdoing is a serious concern. Believing that everyone would instantly become 100% honest is silly. I'd trust a network of peers to consider all sides of a story far more than I trust our current legal system to do so.
Statistically, a guy is more likely to be raped than falsely accused of rape.
How can we know that statisticly? False accusations can trick people into thinking it's legitimate. I knew someone personally who was falsely accused, yet still got busted for it. Edit: not to discredit any rape claims, I have just experienced a peers life get messed up over something he didn't do.
Just personally, I've always believed that the best way to go about organizing a justice system in an anarchy is through an annually elected, and literally wholly socially transparent sheriff. Such individuals would exchange privacy for authority, for the brief period in which they serve their role. Hopefully people who would want to have the protections that a beyond-Peelian force might afford them (investigation of murderers, and rapists specifically) would devote some of their time and resources to helping the elected office acquire field and forensic equipment.
Assuming such a position existed, I don't think it would be unreasonable to investigate a case against an individual, if evidence supports an initial inquiry. Such evidence might be signs of a struggle, date-rape drugs in blood work, or signs of stalking. After that point, I think that an investigation is somewhat warranted, as physical signs are harder to lie about than simple tales alone.
So, in tl;dr form I guess "very fairly, very seriously, and as true until proven otherwise" would be my answer. It's unfortunate that we need to ride the line between liberty and order, but there are those two crimes in particular that necessitate some form of judicial system.
^^^also ^^^i ^^^guess ^^^identity ^^^theft ^^^deserves ^^^srs ^^^treatment ^^^too.
Electing a sheriff is just ordinary statism!? Sheriffs are always nominally transparent and just, so I'm not sure what distinction you think you're drawing. Anarchists believe that justice must be a direct action of the whole community, that justice emerges from collective production rather than from disconnected acts of revenge.
The distinction is draw to the standard federal, state and local government police departments, such as the NYPD, or CPD.
Further, I'm not advocating revenge in any capacity. People who murder, or rape suffer from some sort of underlying condition causing them to be anti-social. It is unsafe for your community for them to remain at large, and treatment for the aforementioned conditions can be administered in a safe, controlled environment after arrest. Not necessarily prison, either. More a hospitalized environment.
If you have an alternative solution to an elected representative making the investigations, and assuming the risk of the pacification itself, I would sincerely love to hear it.
I agree. I would personally be for such a system. If I was ever falsely accused of something, I'd be more than happy to allow for an investigation to clear my name. Interesting perspective, thanks.
u/isreactionarybot OctaShot
The bot got shadowbanned by the admins. Not sure if there's a new one yet.
Damn.
u/TheGulagWinnebago OctaShot
Username checks out.
Educating people that they're extremely rare, telling people like you to shut the fuck up, etc.
Restorative justice has been shown to be far more effective than punitive justice in bringing satisfaction to the victim and reducing repeat offenses. It also seems more likely to lead to any false accusations coming to light since it involves interaction with and between accuser and accused, as opposed to just killing someone or putting them in a cage. A society with jails is not anarchist, as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't care about victims so much as what it can gain by putting people in prison.
So I don't think false rape allegations are common now, but I think they would be less common and easier to detect in an anarchist society.
That isn't to say that there would never be circumstances where someone was banished or killed, mind you. Just that even in severe cases, I don't think it would be a first choice.
Fuck off back to the MRA gamergate hole you slithered out of, you fascist piece of shit.
This kind of attitude is not acceptable in r/Anarchy101
If you see any problems with what someone says her, please report it, but refrain from insults or you'll find yourself banned.
You think that liars have the right to destroy someone's life? You disgust me.
Victims of rape are more important to worry about and help than victims of lying.
Are y'all serious? I agree with you, but OP said nothing about ignoring victims of rape. And I get it, every time someone says they've been raped, the priority should be taking care of them and believing them, and then dealing with the (alleged or not) rapist in a suitable manner. But it's still also important not to ruin the life of someone who is accused unfairly.
I don't have the answers, I don't think anarchism has all the answers, but it's not like other systems have them either. All I can think of is, we should keep our communities tight and based on trust and respect, educate each other and counsel people in advance to avoid abusive behavior, and try to further counsel people who've been abused, or who've been abusive if they're open to counseling and not complete asshats (in which case they should be disowned by the community.) Fuck if I know if I'm right.
Why not both? They are both victims.
Because being raped is a significantly more damaging experience and leaves a lot more scars than being lied about. But I seriously doubt you're here for an honest discussion, just to push your regressive views. And Bakunin is not impressed, tbh.
[deleted]
I'm glad. The more disgusted you are with me and people like me, the less you'll stink up our spaces with your vile stench.
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this guy again; bolded for emphasis.
All claims should be investigated but I cannot justify having the lives of some being destroyed due to false allegations. Men like me are already in fear of false rape accusations (so much so that I've decided to be celibate). Any environment that punishes innocent people is inherently oppressive. Not having a solution makes it worse because these innocent men wont be able to live a normal life after that.
This is who you're engaging.
I love how so many of these, "How would you deal with this, Anarchists?!?!?!" questions are asked. The answer for every single one of those questions is, "We DONT, ya dangas! Stop asking us these stupid questions!"
This subreddit is the place where people can ask stupid questions without fear of reproach, if you don't like it, don't come here.
A lot of good ideas here I'd add; provide anonymity for the accuser and the accused. Mud sticks. Both people who are raped are wrongly shamed, and people who are accused of rape, unjustly, are also shamed. It would lead to more victims coming forward, and more male victims of rape coming forward as well.
There needs to be a trust both ways. We seem to forget, no matter how abhorrent, that rapists are also human, with inalienable rights just like non-rapists. The goal of any criminal justice system should be rehabilitation not stigmatization of anyone, no matter what their crime. so it leads to another question: When someone is found guilty, due to overwhelming evidence, what do we do with that person?
This hits a little close to home for me because the false accusation of child-abuse ruined the life of someone very close to me. I know how a false accusation, even after it is recanted by the accuser, can absolutely destroy a person's life. I cannot believe anything anyone says at face value, unless there is evidence for the fact. Without evidence there is too much room for manipulation of the system in your favour. The last statements is a part of my world-view, and I have always been extremely sceptical to a fault. I'm working on it. I question absolutely everything, and nothing is sacred. It's what led me to anarchism in the first place, and even then I still question this, much to the annoyance of the more dogmatic.
Well, I would first stop reading far right news-magazines. Reason is anarcho capitalist and daily mail has fascist connections but is probably more on the extreme conservative tabloid side of things.
I was wondering how an anarchist society would deal with this too, and with the answers you've been given, it's fair to say I am put off of anarchism.
It would definitely be more important for a potential anarchist society to ensure that victims of rape don't have to fear being shamed constantly and actually be able to get justice against their rapists, than to worry about a few false rape accusations.
False accusers make it harder for actual victims, so I don't know why you don't care about it at all.
Actually, we can't definitively say how few rape allegations are false.
All claims should be investigated but I cannot justify having the lives of some being destroyed due to false allegations. Men like me are already in fear of false rape accusations (so much so that I've decided to be celibate). Any environment that punishes innocent people is inherently oppressive. Not having a solution makes it worse because these innocent men wont be able to live a normal life after that.
That's absolutely ridiculous. Don't worry about that so much. Do you leave your house at all? Way more likely to get hit by a car, and probably more likely to get hit by lightning.
Don't live your life that way.
lol what the fuck get off the red pill dude
'chosen' to be a celibate yeah right
This is ad hom and derails a valid argument.
You could have pointed to studies that show false accusations are truly uncommon things, or you could have posited a way to deal with them, but instead you resorted to name calling and the red pill meme. The worst part is that you actually got upvotes for it on a subreddit dedicated to helping people understand and relate to anarchist principles.