Source
r/KotakuInAction•
Parogar

[Discussion] Sincere question asked in good faith: do you have a problem with what feminists *believe*, what they *do*, or *both*?

DISCUSSION

Some of you might recognize my username. Some of you might not. Either way, the one thing I feel as though people have always misunderstood about me (and that's why I'm asking this question) is that they believe I am an anti-feminist for political reasons: that I disagree so strongly with feminist ideas that it has led me to hate them.

This could not be further from the truth. In actuality, I don't care what they believe. All throughout the world, there are thousands of ideas, cultures, practices, religions, etc. that I don't like or agree with, and I never go after them.

The reason why I have an issue with feminists (especially those in the gaming spheres) is because they destroy lives.

For example: I think astrology is complete bullshit, but I don't spend every day fighting astrologers, because astrologers aren't going to get me fired (or in my case banned from my platform and cutoff from my fanbase) because my tweets aren't sensitive enough towards the way they view the world.

Astrologers don't make their belief in astrology my problem.

But feminists, on the other hand, have made it their life's goal to police my life, the lives of gamers, the games themselves, etc.

So that's what leads me to this question.

Where do you stand on this topic? Is it the beliefs themselves that you dislike? (If you dislike them at all, as I do recognize some on here might consider themselves feminist) or are you similar to me in that it's their actions.

Posted Jan 6, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

2639
HandofBaneShitposter Extraordinaire•

Everyone will have different beliefs on different things, that is inevitable. There are plenty of people who believe some things here that I disagree with greatly. We are also able to get along/coexist despite that. Taking action is another story, though. Pushing for some beliefs to the exclusion of others is where problems start cropping up, and where I start actually being a dick (or worse) in response.

Mockery is fine, physical action aimed to cause harm in some manner (physical or otherwise) is where trouble begins.

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ParogarOPHad a transphobic racist slave sneeze•

I have been warped because of the actions some of the early feminists I encountered took against me. It's hard for me to even see anything clearly about feminists anymore because all I see is red. But even with all that, I still don't actually care what they believe in. It was never about that for me.

But like you said: it's about the ability to coexist peacefully. Can it be done? I don't believe so.

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HandofBaneShitposter Extraordinaire•

Can it be done?

With some, yes. With others, no. Depends on the person involved directly, and whether they feel they have a proper angry mob backing them up in their convictions. There are plenty of people here who, by the more classic definition, would be considered feminists. They disagree with others on some things, but we aren't in full riots and with battle lines drawn the vast majority of the time. We also have some folks who can only be defined as the polar opposite who come in to stir shit and pick fights with those who disagree with them. Who is right and who isn't? At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter from a philosophical standpoint. The ones who cross that line from disagreement into action against others who could coexist otherwise certainly don't help their own case, though.

6
wisco-1•

As I've stated before, I have no problem with feminism's original concept (or at least what I thought was it's original concept). I believe in equality. Equal pay for equal work, no discrimination based on religion, gender, race, etc.

What I don't like about this 'third wave feminism' is that they're trying to force their beliefs upon others. And if you don't accept their beliefs, then you're a sexist, racist hatemonger and deserve worse than death.

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ParogarOPHad a transphobic racist slave sneeze•

Same. It's the things they do to you that really ...

I mean it can really drive you nuts after a while. The constant forcing themselves into your lives. The constant badgering. It's almost like harassment! Too bad that word means absolutely nothing at all now.

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Alzael•

Both.Mostly though my problem is in why they believe.If they believed based on reason and a rational assessment of reality I wouldn't have much issue.I would still oppose it,but it would be tolerable.

But not only is every feminist belief and idea based on ignorance and fallacy,they actually hold that up as something to be proud of.Something commendable.

That's the one place where I completely draw the line of zero tolerance.I can handle other hate groups,I can handle other supremacist groups.But feminists are the worst of the worst for that very reason.They actually enjoy and wallow in their own ignorance and stupidity.Seeking to make their ignorance a reality.

Well,that and the blatant hypocrisy of nearly every position they take.

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TheMasterOdric•

I don't have a problem with feminism, I have a problem with people using outrage culture to destroy lives like you've said. It just so happens that the current outrage topic is "won't someone please think of the poor women" so it seems more often then naught that the person leading the charge on the witch hunt is a feminist.

I strongly agree with the core beliefs of feminism, I just think it has served its purpose in the west and is now being used by the petty and spiteful to fulfill their agendas so why I wouldn't call myself an anti-feminist, I can't in good conscious call myself a feminist with its current form.

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ParogarOPHad a transphobic racist slave sneeze•

The problem is the people who fucked with my life were all feminists, so I just can't see past it anymore. I have a hater-boner on permanent viagra for feminism because that was the group that did it.

3
Lovefist1221•

No one cares about your boner.

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ParogarOPHad a transphobic racist slave sneeze•

ah, I see your confusion.

Basically, what I wrote there is called a figure of speech. In other words, even though what appears there is the word "boner", believe it or not, I wasn't actually referencing a penis or even a sexual organ of any kind.

"Hate boner," though crude, refers to a perpetual negative feeling towards a person or thing, one which transcends the usual level of animosity one might expect to hold.

Hope this helps. And I get it: English is a tough language. I have a few ESL friends son I know it's not easy/.

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Lovefist1221•

I'm sorry dude, I really have to start using /s or stop trying to be clever. I was making fun of Tauric Moosa.

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Primorph•

You are a poet.

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UglyNeckBeard•

It depends on the feminist obviosly.

The problem is we fight "Schrodinger's feminist" which is just a fancy mass aasociation/disaasiaction tactict of moote and baily.

We are against the "men are rapists #yesallmen" and the sex negative feminists, but not the egalitarian equality feminists or the sex positive ones. The problem is via moote and baily, being against the former types it is assumed and announced to the world that we are against ALL feminism, which is slander and falicy - but that is all we get and is taken as gosple by the rest of the world.

I am sure you mean well, but you are are reinforcing the problem by pretending feminism is a monolith of ideas that we have to be 100% either fore or against - which is simply divorced from reality.

If you want a productive, meaningful, and informative conversation instead of asking all or nothing questions ask what tenates or actions held by at least some feminists are we for or against.

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gabrielmodesta•

Action is mostly what matters, but in truth I care about both and so do you I think.

Your astrology analogy is cute, but irrelevant. Astrologists are not attempting to pass legislation to alter speed limits and sentencing guidelines based on planet alignment.

Also important to consider which classification of feminism you're talking about. In general, any anti-feminism statement I even bother to make is specific to the 3rd-wave/intersectional variety.

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ParogarOPHad a transphobic racist slave sneeze•

Attempting to pass legislation, though, is also a form of making their problems my problem.

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gabrielmodesta•

That's a very utilitarian view, but I digress, no need to get philosophical.

I'd prefer to change minds and engage at all levels instead of just opposing change. If I understand you correctly, you only care to engage at the point where it's about to become your problem (assuming you're aware it's coming).

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YetAnotherCommenter•

I dislike both the beliefs of both Radical and Third Wave feminists and I believe they act immorally in many ways (particularly in social media outrage culture). The two are related - the beliefs often serve as a rationalizer/justifier for the actions.

I agree with gender equality. What I reject is the idea, common to both Radical and Third Wave Feminisms, that women as a class are oppressed by men as a class.

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Limon_Lime37k + 48k Knight Commander - Order of the GET•

I have a problem with them shoving it on everyone else and if you don't think that way you are insert buzzword here.

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AntonioOfVeniceRuns /r/polygon \ Karma King of late April 2015•

Special snowflakes in general exist to make their problems your problems.

2
ImielinRocks•

Luke 6:37.

Given that I'm a Roman Catholic, having a problem with or passing a judgement on someone else's belief (no matter what I think of the belief itself) would be the height of hypocrisy - and also, as the Bible passage I just linked to points out, go against the teachings of Jesus Christ himself.

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H_Guderian•

Extremists trying to force their views on others is bad.

The extremists tend to be pampered kids who never did any real heavy lifting, marching around getting up in arms about causes and issues that make them feel relevant and important.

I don't mind they sometimes hold opposing views, but they have no idea of a proper time or place to bring them up, and their pet concern leaks into every conversation. Its like someone constantly quoting memes in general conversation, but instead of being obscure and vaguely funny, it is a laundry list of how whole groups of people are horrible and nothing can be enjoyed as it is.

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Quor18My preferred pronouns are "Smith" and "Wesson."•

Both. What they do is despicable, in every sense.

What they believe in is a bastardized, corrupted version of what they claim it is.

The good parts of feminism have their own belief system; it's called humanism. Everything else "feminist" is dross and should be treated as such.

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swissch33z•

Let's put it this way:

If a feminist is not an asshole and honestly wants gender equality, even if they believe a lot of insane bullshit, then I will still accept them.

But I cannot call myself a feminist, and that is because of the things current mainstream feminism believes and the way it behaves.

Like, I don't understand how the same people who fucking insist that misandry isn't real can be so delusional as to believe that non-issue bullshit like microaggressions and manspreading and mansplaining, or simply bullshit with no basis in reality like rape culture or male privilege or patriarchy in the West are real, serious issues that we must act upon. It's not unlike saying "Evolution is a big sham, but God creating the Earth and all creatures 6000 years ago and Noah gathering up two of all the creatures in a big boat is totally believable who needs real evidence, right?". As many pop scientists have said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Saying that the West is a culture where rape is accepted and endorsed and all men are advantaged over women is an extraordinary claim. And just lime with religion, sometimes "evidence" may be provided, but it tends to be dubious as "proof" of these issues.

And the usual, mainstream feminist response to taking issue with this line of thinking, or even just asking for real proof, is treating you like shit. The feminist media does this. Individual feminists do this. And they both have an impact on university policy and even national legislation. It reminds me of when I was in third grade, raised without religion, and I was bullied by my friends for not believing in God. Then I could go home, turn on the TV and see idiot politicians and news reporters standing by this shit, too.

And then if you point out that feminists treat you like shit, they just shout "THAT ISN'T FEMINISM NOT ALL FEMINISTS ARE LIKE THAT", but then you never hear any mainstream condemnation from feminists because most feminists actually do believe the bullshit claims, and they have no qualms with the behavior of the extremists...because they usually are the extremists. Like I doubt you'll ever see a HuffPo or Guardian or Vox piece titled "I'm a feminist, but rape culture is bogus and it's really shitty to treat someone badly for saying it's bogus".

Meanwhile, I'm supposed to hate MRAs and I don't know why (They're a little bit annoying I guess? They wear clothes and have facial hair I'm supposed to detest for some reason?). They're not the ones shutting down university presentations over disagreement. As far as I can tell, they're not the ones calling for safe spaces and censorship and witch hunts and unemployment over fucking disagreement.

So I take issue with both the attachment to beliefs with no proof and treating people like shit for not accepting these beliefs. It is very much like religious extremism.

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camarougeAnita is my waifu•

Little of both. They believe women are helpless victims and get men fired for making harmless quips because of that. Not a single thing about that is justified, but it's almost intrinsic to third-wave feminism nowadays.

If you disagree with their ideology, they'll call you a misogynist. If you try to explain your side of the story, they'll call it 'mansplaining'. If you rely on facts, they'll say the system was rigged against them beforehand. Even if you try to be nice, they'll say it's "benevolent sexism", and even when trying to do your best at this regard, any arbitrary thing out of place will get you called a "bad male ally".

The ideology provably doesn't bring about 'equality' anymore. In fact, it just creates a huge wedge between them.

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mnemosyne-0000#BotYourShield / https://i.imgur.com/6X3KtgD.jpg•

Archive links for this post:

I am Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. I remember so you don't have to.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
GreatEqualist•

I have a problem with what they believe because it's utter non-sense but if they didn't do anything about it it would be reduced to a mocking here and there, it's their actions that make it a serious issue.

1
Lightning_Shade•

Mostly actions and their execution.

1
KFCNyanCat•

I dislike radfems' actions and beliefs, and since radfems are now the face of feminism, it's fair enough to just say "feminists." I just can't agree with a movement that has "listen and believe" as a political position, and wants censorship.

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sp8der•

I'm behind anyone who professes to believe in equality, AND backs their words up with actions consistently.

I have a marked dislike for anyone who subscribes to the Penis Conspiracy Theory of Patriarchy, and internalises the dogma of Original Sin/Privilege. They might not be a bad person themselves, but the things they believe are repeatedly used to justify bad things.

I have an instant hatred of anyone who demands of me to modify my speech or behaviour to fit in with their worldview. Double that for anyone who backs up their demands with overt or implied threats.

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