r/Netrunner•
Berrr

Imagine a world where FFG buffed the C&C IDs

Discussion

So, I want to talk about the Identities from Creation and Control. C&C was the first deluxe box and therefore had some of the earliest designed IDs in it. Right away the IDs were mostly underwhelming to many players, and over time all six IDs have proven below the power curve, rarely being played in or winning tournaments.

If we look at only IDs from deluxe boxes they are behind - Anarch, Weyland and NBN all got particularly powerful IDs by comparison (Honor and Profit IDs have turned out pretty weak too actually). Also, for both the C&C factions - Shaper and HB - the core set ID is overwhelmingly used - assuredly partly due to their simple and powerful ability - but maybe also partly because these defining deluxe box IDs are too weak in comparison?

Now there have been other IDs that haven't quite worked out (eg HB Stronger Together or Weyland Because We Built It), but mostly they will rotate out, whereas these deluxe box IDs don't rotate out so we're stuck with them forever.

So, what if we errataed these IDs to give them a power boost? Unlike an errata nerf, a power-up errata is always a nice surprise for people to find out. If FFG did this, they could release updated card images as a download, which would be easy to print and play with since IDs are not included in decks.

So I looked at each ID, considered how strong it is and how I would change it if I could:


Rielle Kit Peddler
Easily the strongest runner ID of the three, with a powerful and interesting ability. The -5 inf nerf has held her back a lot, and this hurts more than ever with the MWL.

Proposed change: Increase her inf to the full 15.

Exile
An ability that is hard to trigger, requiring single use cards to trigger his ability, then the ability is not that strong anyway.

Proposed change: Give him 17 influence like Ken Tenma, and add text so his ability is '…then draw a card or gain 2 credits.', to give him a bit more flexibility.

The Professor
The Professor's ability has proven the most difficult to use. I think his ability has two issues - it only applies to deckbuilding and doesn't provide any direct benefit in game, and secondly it is a double-edged ability both giving him a unique advantage but also preventing him from using many cards. He has received a small boost in that he is basically immune to the MWL, but even so he is still very weak.

Proposed change: Give him text 'Before your first turn, search your deck for a card and add it to your grip'. I'm sure that would be a pretty strong in-game ability, and seems fitting to his flavour - he can bring one thing from his University days.

Cerebral Imaging
This has probably been the strongest Corp ID in the box, with various combo decks being built around its ability.

Proposed change: None, It's a cool ability and with the right new cards released I'm sure it could be popular again.

Next Design
The ability seems comparable to Andromeda's, it lets the Corp start the game strong with ice out and more cards in HQ right at the start of the game, so it should be great right? Turns out no, it's never really panned out. Maybe there have been some rush decks that have had some success with this ID, but they've usually been better with the extra credits from EtF. The MWL is probably good for this ID as it has attacked Parasite and Clone Chip, which hurt the NEXT ice and other small ice this ID usually likes to use, however the MWL also has the excellent Architect on it, making that a tough include with this deck's small inf.

Proposed change: Bump the inf all the way up to 17, to change that part of the ID from a handicap to a bonus.

Custom Biotics
Another ID that has a purely deckbuilding ability, and is both a strength and a weakness. The known total lack of Jinteki cards does give the runner a lot of information and mitigate a lot of risk (no Snare!). This ID has always meant almost exactly one thing: Tag'n'Bag HB, using all the inf on Scorched Earth from Weyland and Midseasons from NBN.

Proposed change: Like the Professor, I think this needs an ingame ability as well. I had a couple of ideas riffing on the flavour: 'The rez cost of unique cards is reduced by 2 credits', or 'A second copy of a unique card may be rezzed without trashing another rezzed copy.'


Overall I know this is an exercise in wishful thinking. But then, for all the reasons outlined above FFG actually could plausibly do this without it causing that much of a mess or being a problem for existing players.

If you were rebalancing these IDs, how would you?

Posted Jan 14, 2016, 6:12 AM UTC

2044
blanktextbox•

Kit at 15 inf would have a very large impact on breaker design space that would be bad for the rest of the game. 12 would be fine.

Exile with 17 inf feels good, but a card or two creds seems like it's pushing things a bit; maybe a card or 1 cred? I actually regard Geist as the fixed Exile.

Professor with hand selection seems crazy to me. Rebirth is an obvious problem. I'd try 0 inf but the first copy of one non-program is also not counted. That would lose double Datasucker, but open up lots of weird stuff. Heck, maybe keep the 1 inf.

Cerebral Imaging is just fine, but HB has an EtF problem I'll get into next.

NEXT Design would be great at 15 inf, but you still wouldn't take it over EtF. It sets up a great rush by grabbing you 2-6 clicks of work out of the gate (oh if only it were in Weyland); unfortunately, EtF nets you roughly 1 click a turn (0.7 might be closer) so you just should take it every time. 17 inf might tip the balance but in the end we should just nerf EtF and save HB the trouble. (Shaper has the same problem with Kate.)

Custom Biotics is just a bad idea until the game's more fleshed out and this ID stops signalling its strategy so hard. That also makes it - and The Professor - big losers in the rotation game as these two were very much "wait and see" cards. If I were to add text in your direction, I'd put a recurring credit for rezzing stuff (maybe a non-ice restriction?), or a few non-recurring creds if we nerf EtF.

16
thesunlike•

For NEXT Design an additional ability could be viable: "+3 ice cards, ignoring agenda density"

3
mdotbeezy•

it would be more elegant if NEXT required "one less agenda point" than the rules state otherwise.

5
blanktextbox•

I like this one a lot. Part of what I didn't like about 17 inf is that it addresses the least of the four problems the ID has (Parasite, not being EtF, ice density vs deck size, wanting access to better and varied ice). The last maybe shouldn't be listed, though, as it's something every deck wants. It's like looking at Near Earth Hub's text box and wanting to make sure it has access to good assets without losing out on other goodies; NEXT's ability should be able to offset that change in priorities. I realize there are differences: Making News is not EtF and NEH gives drip economy to NEXT's one time burst. But I like how reducing the agenda density shores up a weakness unique to the ID. Of course, it might not fit in the text box...

1
MrSmith2Weyland can into space•

There is one card coming up that CB might like - Localized Product Line is a huge influence hog, but CB could have it fine, in multiples even.
Initially the thought is "so what, just another scorch (setup) tool", but there's quite a lot it might be useful for - especially if you use Cybernetics Court and possibly Reclamation Order. . Also a very good card for The Twins.

2
LeonardQuirm•

I still don't think Exile would be good with the higher influence and option of taking credits instead of getting a card. His major problem is that he simply doesn't fire that often. The full list of cards that can trigger his ability at this point are:

  • Clone Chip (MWL)

  • Scavenge

  • Test Run

  • Retrieval Run (out of faction)

  • Pawn (out of faction)

You also need targets, possibly memory, and the economy to be doing all these installs. Put plainly, it's a mediocre ability that is triggered rarely. Compare to Kate - an weaker ability (in terms of "1 credit is worth less than 1 card") but it's triggered almost every one of your turns and on some of the Corp's turns, simply doing what's needed to win the game anyway.

What Exile needs is (at least) one of the following:

  • A stronger gain (1 card plus 2 credits? a click, if on your turn?)

  • Some way to ease the burdens I mentioned above about getting targets in the heap and having the economy to get them out. For example, he could get a discount on installing programs from the heap in addition to the card draw.

  • More cards to trigger his ability easily and repeatedly. Something like Pawn is great for this (repeatable, rewards doing what you want to be doing, doesn't boost Geist and Kate at all).

Obviously the third is fundamentally different to the other two, since it simply means printing more cards rather than errata-ing anything. I'd love to see that happen, even if it would mean that a certain player in our local meta would never stop crowing about it...

12
tmoiynmwg•

Kit: 12 influence

Exile: 17 influence

Professor: 5 influence

Next Design: 17 influence

Custom Biotics: 30 influence??

11
SyntaxLost•

Does the bump really help The Professor? Clone Chips and Lady are just going to bring him back down again thanks to the MWL.

8
tmoiynmwg•

It would open up some alternative builds for him. The Professor doesn't really need Lady and I think he can get by without Clone Chips as well.

2
DamienStarkJunebug!•

Agreed, there's not really a way to give him more influence without being super specific in the text "He may also add a second copy of influence-costing card three times" or something like that.

Would be better to accept that "can have one of everything" is basically his thing, and add some sort of power that takes effect during the game - although the OP's "search your deck for anything" is too powerful a choice.

Maybe something like "reduce the cost of Shaper events or programs by 1". A watered down version of Kate's ability, and actively working against his ability to splash everything from everyone...

1
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

Bonus influence (almost) across the board. Simple, effective, easy to remember. Seems good.

3
divadusThe W is for 'waaah'.•

As a TL;DR to my previous opus of a post, here's just the changes I would implement:


NERFS

  • Engineering the Future -> "The first time you install a card in a server each turn, gain 1credit."

  • Kate -> "Lower the install cost of the first program or piece of hardware you install each turn by 1."

  • Near-Earth Hub -> Influence lowered to 15.


BUFFS

  • Kit -> Influence increased to 12.

  • Exile -> Influence increased to 17. [Print new dedicated support cards to trigger his ability]

  • The Professor -> Added text "Before your first turn, search your deck for a program and add it to your grip."

  • NEXT Design -> Influence increased to 17.

  • Custom Biotics -> Influence increased to 28.


Oh, and regarding Harbinger.

Here's a letter I sent to Lukas requesting that Harbinger receive functional errata to combo with Exile: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hrn3LX0aZNAYG0GU74wThCoPGDqInwEHjlptnO2WclI/edit.

I really, really do want that poor, mopey dude to get some love.

7
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

These changes all sound so great. If only this were a digital game or something, so they could change what was written on the cards retrospectively. Because adding significant nerf errata to Core set IDs that players have to learn / remember would be so brutal :/ I guess they're still IDs so its easy enough to print and use corrected cards.

2
GardensOfBoydstylon•

Don't count on it. Hearthstone is a digital card game (and a very good one at that!), and errata like that is pretty rare. Only a handful of cards have been errataed since release, and most of those have been nerfs.

RIP Warsong Commander. :'(

1
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

Oh I agree it is extremely unlikely. Re: Rebalancing cards in a digital game, it varies between them, I used to play Solforge a bit, and that had very wide ranging nerf and buff rebalances from time to time.

1
kaminiwa•

For the professor, it would makes sense to restrict the starting card to a program. Avoids the rebirth issue that u/blanktextbox mentioned, and just feels more flavorful.

6
thesreynatwork•

They did buff one of them!

The Professor can run 3 x PPvP, 3 x Lady, 3 x Clone Chip, 1 x Parasite and 2 x Yog without losing any Influence now!

I know you mentioned this in your post, but I think this is more than a slight buff :P

5
flamingtominohead•

Not that he'd want to. Well, ok, 1x yog, 1x parasite, 1-2x lady and 3x cc, yes.

2
thesreynatwork•

I dunno. PPvP is obviously less efficient in IDs other than Kate, but when the ID can run 3 x Levy alongside Faust, the most efficient credit breakers and clone chip to support them...

I think there's a list there.

4
losspiderSneakdoor Melbourne•

PPVP is wayyy less good with no Lucky Find unfortunately.

2
thesreynatwork•

I run without lucky find in my Kate Faust list and it's still very, very good. Obviously having lucky find would be better but it is by no means a requirement to make ppvp good.

1
AnlysiaBecause We Own It•

Considering The Professor's strength is in Programs, maybe he'd want Technical Writer above PpVP.

Not to mention Chatterjee University.

1
thesreynatwork•

Depends on your build I suppose. Technical Writer tends to see a lot of play alongside Chameleon, so if you had a Chameleon Professor I could see that happening!

1
AnlysiaBecause We Own It•

Well, Professor does take Clone Chip without penalty and Test Run without influence.

I actually want to play a goofy "toolbox" deck with him now.

1
divadusThe W is for 'waaah'.•

I have thought about this exact same thing many, many times. The fact that the big boxes are not going to cycle out all the more makes me wish that these IDs were all revisited. Also:

So, what if we errataed these IDs to give them a power boost? Unlike an errata nerf, a power-up errata is always a nice surprise for people to find out. If FFG did this, they could release updated card images as a download, which would be easy to print and play with since IDs are not included in decks.

I know that not everyone would be happy with a solution like this ("ugly", "awkward", "but I hate sleeves"), but I would be fuznucking ecstatic if the balance of IDs were being so heavily prioritized that it even took precedence over the 'appearance' of a perfect product. That's just me though.


Before I even address these IDs though, I feel it's necessary to address the elephants in the room (yep, there are two of them). The major reason why the C&C IDs are so 'below the curve' is because each faction has a rather pronounced spike in power level right at the top. HB and Shaper each have an ID that stands head and shoulders above all their other in-faction competitors - namely, Engineering the Future and Kate "Mac" (tehehe) McCaffrey. While this thread is centred around buffing the betrodden (a philosophy dear to my heart), sometimes you need to dethrone the ruling class in order to establish true balance. Even if Kate and ETF were to be nerfed, the C&C IDs could still afford to be buffed without fear that they would 'overtake' the previous giants.

Honestly, I really don't know how exactly I would nerf these two (reduced influence; make EtF only work for installs in servers or protecting servers, not both; make Kate's ability only work for hardware, etc) but I would see fit to do so. Also, even though it isn't directly relevant to the discussion - snap drop Near-Earth Hub to 15 influence (or less). It would easily survive the nerf.


All that being said, for a number of the C&C IDs, the best solutions are probably the simplest ones (and sadly, the most boring). Buff Kit's influence up to 12 (just a couple of extra influence would be a huge deal for her) and NEXT Design up to 17 (same logic as u/Berrr's in OP). Pretty simple.

Regarding Exile, I think u/LeonardQuirm summed it up perfectly. Personally, my preferred solution would be the latter, alongside an influence bump (up to 17). There has been so little in the way of program heap recursion - for obvious reasons, what with Clone Chip being so good - which has ensured that Exile has never been able to excel. We need some program recursion 'for the sake of recursion' - programs that do little besides recur themselves, solely to trigger Exile (yes, he's so neglected at this point that he absolutely needs dedicated support cards), in a similar fashion to Cache for Noise. Like what Harbinger should have been. Yeah, I'm salty. More on this in another post.

The Professor is actually fairly difficult to buff now - in the past, I would have immediately just said "increase his influence to, say, 5", but with the arrival of the NAPD Most Wanted List, that change wouldn't really achieve very much (and would undo his present buff). I like your idea, but I would probably restrict the card to a program (seems appropriate), as u/kaminiwa suggests.

I don't know what to do about Custom Biotics - at present, I really hate that ID. Its ability is solely related to deckbuilding, but it isn't interesting. I readily admit that I am biased though (don't hate me please). Maybe... 28 influence? It just feels so uninspired. With that much more influence than any other ID though, perhaps something truly impressive could be achieved with out-of-faction cards?

Anyhow, I agree about keeping Cerebral Imaging as is, particularly if EtF were to be nerfed.

4
Atalvez•

I fully agree that these ID's (and most of HB's tools from the box) are sorely underpowered, but I'm going to say that I'm firmly against errataing them without a WIDELY available reprint of the ID's that doesn't require rebuying the whole set.

I really dislike the idea that we'll be playing a game with a bunch of cards that don't actually say what they do. It causes massive problems for new players and opens up even more room for error in tournament play.

While I know WNP did get a unique errata, there is a huge difference between a tiny diamond missing from a card and many of the ideas suggested in this thread, even simple influence buffs.

3
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

I hear you, and pretty much agree. Lots of errata floating around would suck. I tried to convince myself this would be ok because I was talking about only buff errata (so it never catches someone offguard making their deck illegal) and only IDs, so a printed proxy should be quite usable (to address distribution issues).

1
magikot•

Kit with 15 influence would be way too powerful. However, bumping her influence to 12 would be very reasonable.

Exile: I agree with whomever it was that said Geist is a fixed Exile. What Exile really needs is a better way to consistently trigger his ability. Going up to 17 influence is a start so that the MWL doesn't hurt him as badly. But what I think we really need for Exile is his console. It should have +1 MU and a click ability that lets you install from your heap. Professor got his Monolith in C&C, Kit got her Omnidrives, and poor Exile was left out and continues to be.

Professor: I honestly think professor is fine as is.

NEXT: As an avid NEXT design player I say yes to 17 influence; even 15 I'd be happy with! This would make the ID competitive, but still not EtF levels of awesome. EtF itself is the issue with all HB idents and should only be either installing in the server or protecting the server, not both.

CB: Again, fine as is. If we really want to do something to give it an active ability, since it is a Tag'n'Bag ID, how about "The play cost of the first operation you play each turn is reduced by 1 credit." But you'd need to remove the no-Jinteki restriction, otherwise it'd have 2 abilities.

CI: Still awesome, but since corp economies have gone from Operation based to Asset based it hasn't seen as much play. Opening the archetype to something more than a seven-point-combo-bomb would be nice to see, but until the corp economy packages swing back to primary Operations we'll rarely see this deck.

3
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

I used to think Kit with 15 inf would be too strong too. But then Quetzal, MaxX, and Leela Patel all came out with I think equally game-distorting abilities and full inf, and they've been good but not OP.

I like the sound of Exile console, although I suspect that much re-usable recursion may end up OP in another ID.

CB I like your idea ability but don't think the Jinteki restriction needs removing - its a drawback not an ability, and it only relates to deckbuilding.

1
magikot•

I was thinking Exile's console could be something similar to SoT. "Click, click: install a program from your heap, paying all install costs. You can only use this ability once per turn."

1
RogueCarpet•

I've always thought NEXT should be a 40 card ID. 40/15 seems like it'd be a good spot, and it gives the ID more to distinguish itself from EtF.

3
NevofixAbstergo Corporation•

Professor has 1 influence, Rebirth costs 1 influence. Totally worth it...

1
jontyld•

I always thought CB and Stronger Together were good IDs, but they'd never beat out ETF because it's too good. Similar with Kit, she needs maybe 12 inf, but it's less that she's bad and more that Kate is so good.

1
TonyStellato•

I think Kit's ability can be (emphasis on the "can") better than Kate's. It definitely impacts design, because any code gate utility is immediately going to be thrown into Kit. I feel like 12 influence is more fair, 15 feels like much. That new Exile seems really decent, I would definitely be cool with that. The Professor changes seem way too good. Being able to tutor all of his 1-ofs clicklessly would be way too strong. I don't know how I would buff him.

I, too, wouldn't change CI. NEXT Design isn't as bad as people think, IMO. 17 influence sounds good with me. Custom Biotics is another ID i'd have no idea what to do with. It needs a build that takes full advantage of its influence, and that can always come with future cards.

1
vicred•

How do you feel about the Professor changes if you can only use the ability before your first turn? That's how it's described in the original post (I missed it the first time too).

2
TonyStellato•

ha, whoops. Good call. Yeah, that's not nearly as broken :P

1
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

Haha a free tutor every turn. Agreed, that would be the most broken ID ever!

I just wanted to give the Prof a small edge. I liked the suggestion to restrict it to programs. I think I'd then grab Overmind or Sahasrara depending who I was playing against. (Without that restriction, I'd probably grab Professional Contacts every time).

1
neutronicus•

NEXT design is pretty bad, IMO, just because HB's agenda suite and economy options don't really support or reward rushing.

I think the upcoming Advanced Concept Hopper and Corporate Sales Team, will help them a lot by giving them powerful economic effects from early scores.

2
TonyStellato•

Advanced Concept Hopper seems really good for the ID, I agree that the Agenda suite isn't tailor-made for the style. ABT works well though. Its not unrealistic to say "one day", though.

1
mdotbeezy•

the professor de-nerf is insane, likely would be highly OP. especially given he can have one-of of anything, he can react to basically any scenario.

1
BerrrOPGo on, run the server, you know you want to ;)•

Did you catch that the ability only fires once at the start of the entire game?

1
mdotbeezy•

I believe the original was "before your turn", not "before your first turn", but I possible mis-read.

1
SmilingKnight80•

If exile's ability was changed to "The first time each turn you install a program from your heap, add one card from your heap to the top of your stack" he'd be playable

1