Sonic's combos are too fast for comprehension
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gfycat.comPosted Jan 30, 2016, 12:52 AM UTC
23865
gfycat.comHow exactly does sonic combo like this? Sorry for my "newness".
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The vast majority of Sonic's bread and butter combos begin with a grounded Side-B. After the third hit of Side-B (frame 14), the move can be cancelled with a jump, leading to a wide variety of followups on hit. The multi-hit nature of Side-B makes CCing or shieldgrabbing it quite difficult, and since it can be used directly out of a dash it can be used very flexibly during neutral.
The main component of this string is the reverse spincharge (Down-B) that encompasses hits 4, 5 and 6 on the "Consecutive hits" counter. The first two hits come from the charging portion of the move, which is done by holding the analog stick down and tapping B repeatedly for each additional "charge." Each charge provides a hitbox with set knockback that sends at the autolink angle.
Charging can be ended instantly by returning the analog stick to its neutral position. This makes Sonic shoot off at a high speed and allows the move to be cancelled with a double jump for as long as Sonic remains in the air. This will also instantly produce a new hitbox that deals 11%. In this combo, Sonic releases his Down-B on the frame after he hits Mario with a second charge hitbox.
During hitlag from the charge hitbox, the 11% hitbox provided by releasing Down-B hits Mario. Then, during hitlag from the 11% hitbox, Sonic initiates a double-jump to cancel the Down-B. He still has a few more frames of hitlag left before he is allowed to move anywhere, so he initiates his Neutral-B during hitlag as well. He remains paused on the first frame of the animation from his Neutral-B until hitlag finally ends, and then continues to carry out that move once Mario is launched.
Neutral-B is Sonic's signature Homing Attack move, but this move normally takes a long time to actually get a hitbox out since it needs to search for and lock on to a target during the windup. If Homing Attack doesn't find a target, it defaults to moving in a forward/downward diagonal trajectory. However, if A is pressed during the startup of Homing Attack then the target-seeking function will be skipped entirely, instantly putting Sonic into his default "no target" trajectory. This provides a hitbox as soon as frame 5 of the move, and upon hitting a target, it pops both Sonic and the victim upwards for a followup. The act of skipping the startup of Homing Attack is referred to as using a "Blast Attack" (or "BA" for short, which is coincidentally the button combo that needs to be pressed for it to be executed).
Anyways, once hitlag from the 11% hitbox of Down-B ends, Sonic carries out the remainder of his Neutral-B's animation and presses A once it reaches frame 5. This instantly hits Mario, who happens to be right on top of him after being launched from the Down-B, tacking on 8% to and a 7th hit the combo. Using a BA as opposed to a normal Homing Attack cuts the endlag significantly, so this allows Sonic to follow up with yet another BA once he is able to act. He then uses another BA after that one, and proceeds to end the combo by landing both hits of his Up-Air.
All of this action transpires in less than 3 seconds, providing a total of 60% in damage without a single gap in hitstun. Sonic truly brings an entirely new element of speed to the table whenever he lands a hit, and as of right now there are very few Sonics that truly know how to harness his incredible potential during the punish game.
Sonic's good, guys. Keep an eye on him as the meta develops further.
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What the fuck
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Wow, thank you so much for this post! Not only did it teach me how to execute a sweet combo, but it also taught me a lot of terminology (like BA) that I've been confused about on the smash boards sonic forum and ways to cancel a lot of his moves!
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Crouching reduces the amount of knockback taken by a significant amount, often enough to make it not strong enough to send into tumble. When you take knockback from something that doesn't put you into tumble, ASDIing into the ground will put you into your standard landing animation after you get hit, preventing you from being launched.
However, in the case of multi-hit moves, the initial hit will "break" crouch and send the victim into their standard landing animation, and the following hits will hit the opponent again before their standard landing animation is over. Since they were still in their standard landing animation when they got hit they are unable to reduce the knockback they will take from the move by crouching, as they were unable to act when they had been struck. As a result, they are forced into tumble and will be forced into a tech situation rather than a CC counterattack situation.
Landing back on the ground with ASDI also requires that the victim is not knocked back so far that they are launched beyond the point where a full ASDI down will let them touch the ground again on the first frame after hitlag, so sometimes holding down during a multi-hit move will still force them into the air.
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Wait, why can Sonic do these moves out of hitlag?
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The way that hitlag works is that it freezes the attacker on the specific frame of the move that they hit their opponent with, and neither the attacker nor the opponent are allowed to move anywhere during this time. This does not, however, mean that the attacker is unable to perform actions.
In this case, since Sonic's Down-B provides a hitbox and can be jumpcancelled starting from the first frame that he releases his charge, he is considered "frozen" on the first frame of animation for the release of his Down-B if he hits an opponent with it. Because he can jumpcancel starting on the first frame of his Down-B, which he is frozen on, he can initiate a double jump during hitlag to cancel his Down-B.
Now that Sonic has double jumped, he remains locked on the first frame of his double jump animation. Coincidentally, double jumps give the user the ability to take whatever action they want beginning on the first frame, so in this case Sonic is allowed to initiate anything he could normally do after a double jump before hitlag from his Down-B even ends. This includes things such as aerials, specials, and even airdodges.
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When sonic does his downB into double jump Waveland to grab in that gif, sonic is canceling his downB with a double jump. DJC characters do the opposite by attacking during their double jump to cancel the jump itself. I know sonic isn't technically doing a DJC tech, but he is double jump canceling his downB. Is there a separate term for this or am I stretching really hard on this one?
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To give sonic a sense of speed while comboing someone.
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You press the round button cause it'll turn you into a ball.
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Instructions weren't clear, sold my Wii for weed. You'll be hearing from my lawyer.
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Nintendo Wiid
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its ok no one knows how sonic works
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Sonic vs. Lucario got me sitting here just shaking my head
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Sonic-Lucario-Snake: the ultimate team of what the fuck are they doing and why is it killing me so effectively
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Snake might be the worst because I know just enough to know what they're doing and what I should be doing for it to not work, but then all the sudden I'm getting dair to stick at 50 and I just start yelling
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ayy i'm right here
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You have to just feel as though you are free styling your opponent. I can't explain it any better, and am not sure if that is even the best way to play him.
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holy shit. Can I just say how much I love this subreddit lately? we've been getting new tech nearly every day, and tons of great analysis content.
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I thought this was turbo mode for a sec.
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This stuff here is what brought me back to having Sonic as my secondary.
I didn't incorporate BA in my Sonic back when I dropped him 6 months ago. Picked him up again for a few friendlies the other day and fiddled with it a bit. Fell back in love with the character.
Now if only I ever felt like he was close enough to my Samus to be worth a counterpick. :/
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Damn, if im not mistaken, thats tab side b- weak nair - BA x4- upair
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Tap sideb, jump, breverse downb charged x2, jump to immediate BA, BA, BA, upair
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This.
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Bless you Shockbound, our PM version of Kadano.
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sideB to downB to double blast attack to uair
EDIT: title says three blast attacks but I only see two
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Their is a first one that happens after he jumps out of downb. It's pretty fast.
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Is this something you could pull off in a normal match?
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The 3 consecutive Blast Attacks were for style and not really possible with good DI, but everything from the Side-B to the first Blast Attack is definitely very doable in a real match.
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What would you recommend doing in a real match?
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Varies based on character size, floatiness, how they DI the BA, and platform positioning (if any).
With DI in or no DI on the BA, you can go for D-Air spike and initiate a reaction techchase to convert into a grab. With DI out you could feasibly land another BA if there are no platforms in your way, but if there is a platform you should go for a F-Air; this will let you landcancel it on the platform so that you can continue with your followup and refresh your double jump.
If they're super floaty or at a high %, RASCAL > BA won't connect unless you delay when you press the B button after initiating your double jump. Once you land the RASCAL and jump during hitlag, this will instantly perform a spinshot jump instead of a normal double jump. The angle that the opponent gets sent at from the 11% hitbox of Down-B tends to match the way that you're flying when this happens, so by delaying your action you should still be able to nail them with the BA.
Alternatively if you don't feel safe with trying the BA, you could also skip it and go immediately for a RASCAL > D-Air. The spike usually tends to connect due to your spinshot trajectory allowing you to follow them during the startup of D-Air, so it tends to work at %s a bit higher than when BA typically stops working. You'll land the sourspot if you do it at too low of a %, so keep the opponent's character in mind when you try this.
At low-mid %s on non-floaties, you can do a RASCAL and waveland to hit the ground again to convert into many of your grounded options like Up-Tilt or grab. It doesn't do as much damage as a BA followup, but it's still rather rewarding to land for those moments where you really need a grab. It's also important that you reverse your Down-B against smaller characters so that you have a better chance of hitting them while low to the ground, since it's likely that you will overshoot them with your shorthop and end up not hitting them with the strong part of Down-B. Against larger characters you won't always need to reverse it, but it's a good habit to get into.
I'm still experimenting with this so this is all of the information that I can provide right now. Let me know if you have any more questions.
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What's RASCAL? I'm guessing it's a downb charge, jump, and then aerial?
Heck, I don't really know much Sonic terminology at all. I can follow along pretty well with what you're doing, though.
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All in favor of banning Sonic from tournaments, comment below saying "ECARRETSAMEKINEERG" ^^^Kappa
^^^Inb4 ^^^says ^^^the ^^^Ike ^^^player
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IF YOU'RE STRONG
YOU CAN FLY
YOU CAN REACH THE OTHER SIDE
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OF THE RAINBOW
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Cool combo to catch someone off guard with. Hopefully no one thinks this is what sonic should do every time he lands a side B at zero. Side B is pretty easy to CC as long as Sonic doesn't JC grab out of it. If they arent trying to be jc grabbed and DI'ing up or something, this might be a thing
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Most people these days who know anything about the Sonic matchup will never CC his Side-B out of fear that he'll use JC grab. It's a free grab if they do CC it, and it remains so until it reaches the tumble % threshold, at which point BA becomes the next good followup.
RASCAL is applicable against people who opt to not CC it and the reward for landing it is considerably higher than what Sonic could otherwise get out Up-Throw, since RASCAL > BA works at most %s across the cast and does 20% on its own; more depending on what Sonic follows the BA up with.
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Genesis does what Nintendon't.
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That's like a fucking Marvel 3 combo right there. Holy Shit.
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Do you know what characters this works on? Is it cast wide, or specific to Mario / similarly weighted characters?
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It's pretty much cast-wide. Floatiness shortens the % threshold that it works at, but the size of the character widens it immensely. RASCAL > BA should work at pretty much any % against a fastfaller.
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Played shockbound last week Can confirm crazy combos
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Frickin' beautiful. And this is not even his bait and punish at work here. Good stuff Shockbound. Speaking of which would it be viable to use his Aerial Down-B as a gimp or are opponents able to go DI out of the hitbox? I tend to use this when I chase the opponent off and it does drag them down, cancel to Spin Shot and make it back, but of course it depends on position and stage itself (from the side, drag lower or if next to the stage, lower= Spring Gimp or Wall Jump, Fair or Bair depending on opponents recovery options). It's really weird but I think this is viable. This video helped remind me of how good Aerial Down-B is.
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Down-B's repeating charge hitboxes are great for gimping since they send at the autolink angle, meaning that they will send the opponent wherever Sonic happens to be moving when he hits them. When Sonic is falling, they are sent straight down along with him and are unable to meteor cancel because the autolink angle is not technically classified as a meteor. This functionally serves as a spike that can be jumpcancelled at any time. You can SDI out of it, but by the time that they can react it's already too late to recover.
This isn't my video, but here's an example of the gimp in action. The way that NyTRO sets up this gimp is pretty risky, but it works on most characters at just about any %. I personally prefer setting up a Down-B gimp with an offstage Homing Attack and primarily use it against Wolf and Falco at low %s where they fall too far beneath me after the HA to be hit by a N-Air.
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Nice, I usually try to mix up the approach depending on launch height such as moonwalk full jump/short hop then Down-B and yeah space animals are not a fear factor thanks to this. Seriously, that video and this just now was the most refreshing thing I have witnessed.
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sigh goddammit phoenix
How feasible is this to actually perform in a non tas setting with an opponent that can SDI
Very feasible. Performing the reverse spincharge and releasing the control stick as soon as Sonic is lined up with the opponent puts him into 7 frames of hitlag, and during the latter 6 of these frames he can use a double-jump and input his Neutral-B before he even exits hitlag. This phenomena of canceling out of hitlag with another move is seen frequently with Lucario and during Gatling combos.
Those 6 actionable frames of hitlag essentially provide 6 frames worth of room for error when performing the jump-cancel and Neutral-B, thus making this particular combo not too overbearingly precise in that regard. It is a very secure link and SDI won't do very much to it since Sonic still shoots forward after pressing A to shoot off early.
The followup of performing 3 consecutive Blast Attacks isn't really all that realistic, but it shows what's possible with Sonic's kit. This gfy here is a more realistic and practical example of the combo in action.
Shockbound, ahem Phoenix. Not sure I've mentioned before how awesome your write-ups are of various smash shit. I love seeing your posts around, you seem to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of smash and I'd like to thank you for sharing :p
Also sonic is jank hehheehe
He's our GnW tech guru
Is the practical one more guaranteed? I'll be the first to admit I'm awful at SDI but if someone who were good at it were caught in this combo, could they get out fairly easily?
The D-Air could probably be avoided with good DI, but they could still be hit by a F-Air or Side-B. In any case, Down-B > BA is very secure and Sonic can already pretty much hit with anything he wants after a BA.
I'm no expert, but it looks to me like it'd be significantly harder to break out of. You'd have to clearly read which way Sonic would go, which isn't incredibly difficult once you know your opponent, but Sonic is quick enough that you might not be able to react properly in time.
Let me know if what I said is bullshit, I'm just guessing here.
Can't call you on it because I don't know evnough about smash DI n all of this fancy stuff
Dude that was brutal. I'm picking up Sonic once I get home.
I have never seen anyone SDI out of sonic's first hit of up air to avoid the second(I can never tell if I was moving too fast or if they actually used SDI hit) but it seems possible. Is it possible?
It's very possible, but most Sonics usually space to avoid landing the second hit if they know their opponent will try to SDI it. The first hit of Up-Air is mostly at Sonic's sides, so as long as you hit with just the part that's above him you'll always reliably hit with the strong part.
Phenomenon is the singular form.
I know you hate me now, but I thought you should know.